Thoughts on mortal wounds from "to hit" rolls

[Bradifer]

23 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Careful now.  That sounds like thought, strategy, and adjustment while working within the system.   Can't have that.  Much better to change the game than change ourselves.

/s

I mean, I don't really want to put down 80 models every game because my opponent's army has MW output.

[KnightFire]

I mean, I don't really want to put down 80 models every game because my opponent's army has MW output.

That's like saying I don't want to have to buy anti aircraft guns because your enemy has aircraft. If you want to win, you have to pick a counter (that's why it's called a meta game, it's the game on top of the game).

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[Bradifer]

15 minutes ago, KnightFire said:

That's like saying I don't want to have to buy anti aircraft guns because your enemy has aircraft. If you want to win, you have to pick a counter (that's why it's called a meta game, it's the game on top of the game).

 

But the logistics involved are problematic. If most armies have MW output, everyone starts to bring an extra 40 models.

Now the game simply takes longer to move (and move again in some battalions/destruction move), takes longer to pile in/ roll hit/wound/damage.

Not to mention more models means added options so generally longer thinking time as well.

And to be fair it takes quite a long time to paint up a horde etc...

[wayniac]

Pretty much.  The answer to mortal wound spam shouldn't be "just take more dudes".  That's not constructive nor necessarily fun, and as such is IMHO not a valid response.

[Sleboda]

Sure it should.  If lascannons kill vehicles and your opponent loads up on lascannons because you always take lots of tanks, good on him for adapting ... and good on you for countering by using fewer tanks and more troops next time. 

It's really sort of the essence of this game.

[BunkhouseBuster]

3 hours ago, Bradifer said:

...

How does FEC or Ironjawz beat Sylvaneth? They don't.

...

My Ironjawz powered through a Treelord Ancient with the 1+ Re-rollable save.  I got two Brute Squads into melee with it in one Charge Phase, and the Brute Bosses's Claw and Smashas tore through it like a wood-chipper.  The -2 Rend of the Smashas, the auto-hits granted by the Claws making contact, and rolling decently on the d3 damage for the hits just brought that threat down quick.  I don't know how FEC deals with it, but my Ironjawz army tactics is about throwing out a bunch of Rending attacks, and getting -2 Rend when possible.  I also always try to let me opponents take first turn, becuase with the Iron Fist Battalion's and Destruction Allegiance's extra d6 inches of movement, I can make a turn one charge if I go second.

To the topic of Sayl's Bloodletter Bomb tactic, I don't know what I would do to counter that other than force his hand and let him come to me, and counter charge.  Leave a unit up at the deployment line, leaving it the only unit in range to be charged, and have a second battle line behind from which to bring up reinforcements.  Nothing in the book says that you have to deploy your models as far forwards as you can, so try pulling them back a ways and force him to come to you, forcing him to make a longer charge to make it into combat.  Bloodletters go down quick in my experience.

Or use a blob of infantry or something with poor saves as chaff, sacrificing them to take the main charge so the rest of the army can clean up the mess.

[someone2040]

I think the biggest problem with alpha-striking in this game is the lack of counterplay. That's what makes it the most frustrating I feel. Yet mortal wounds are needed to keep things like Dracoth riders and Treelord Ancients in check.

I think there are some huge fundamental differences between prior warhammer editions and age of sigmar that unfortunately cause a lot of issues.

The hero phase (spells in particular) is one player doing their stuff with very little interaction from the opponent. You used to be able to get dispel scrolls, or put a lot of effort into ensuring one spell in particular didn't go off. It's also extremely hard to get into range to have interaction occur when the hero phase happens first. You have to look ahead (not a bad thing), but you're also putting your generally fragile and weak spellcasters within harms distance to do so. 

Cover and line of sight is implemented pretty poorly in the game. Mortal wounds don't even care about cover, which while fine for spells, maybe isn't so fine for shooting attacks (or even combat). If cover gave -1 to hit rather than +1 armour save (and you got cover for intervening units/terrain), it would be much more meaningful and would curb some of the issues. Take Vanguard-Raptors, why is it just as easy to get a headshot on a unit in the open as it is in cover, doesn't make sense.

Any shooting attack(maybe even anything that could be considered an attack) that doesn't require rolling to hit is probably a blight on the game. To an extent, I can understand why Warpfire Projectors don't need to roll to hit (They're gushing forth warpflame), but there's no risk to it at all if they're in that close. I can't remember, but I believe they used to have a 'misfire' chance in 8th, but at the moment it's just basically delete something important within range.

Finally to-hit rolls in combat. Well, I think this is probably the least issue (or at least, at the moment) if other things are addressed. They're the least big issue because they're the easiest to counterplay. Make sure your key pieces are well protected by surrounding units, having meat-shield units up front and blocking, etc.

It's interesting to note on the point of mortal wounds on hit rolls is  that prior warhammer editions had very few things that ignored armour saves and didn't roll to wound.

 

If I were to fix things in the game:

Sayl can only effect Slaves to Darkness units. And/or spell makes their movement 12" rather than 18". This curbs his power level extremely and stops first turn issues. Both parts are probably important, but the first perhaps moreso. While you can effect anything in the game with that spell, it in essence puts the design space at risk as you always need to think about "What if we combo this with Sayl". Vastly overpointing him does a disservice to the people that want to use him.

Cover is changed, you benefit if the target model cannot see 50% of the unit and/or in area terrain and enemies have -1 to hit.

Increase points of Skyfires (even with cover changing, they are probably still too good for their points).

Thundertusks ability is changed to a shooting attack, probably should hit on a 3+ or base do D6 mortal wounds rather than 6.

Warpfire projectors changed to 2d3 attacks that hit on a 2+, wound on a 3+, rend *, Damage 1 (All wounds caused are mortal wounds). Change Warpfire Throwers (and anywhere else like Thanquol and Boneripper) to be consistent.

Unbinding range increased to 24". Not sure if Arcane Bolt should follow (as it would set a trend for all direct damage spells, which may just lead down a similarly dark path).

Introduce more long-range debuff spells into the game. Be'Lakor has a spell Enfeeble Foe, -1 to wound rolls. The range is 18" though which makes it difficult to get good use out of.

In general, the game probably needs more interesting spells to counter certain styles of gameplay. Here's one: Hurricane - Casting roll 5+, Select a visible unit that can fly within 36", that unit halves it's movement speed and subtracts 1 from hit rolls until your next Hero phase. This spell is obviously useless if your opponent has no flying units, but maybe you think half your opponents will be Kharadron Overlords or Skyfires. So you take the risk, and pick the spell.

I dunno, give it to Eldritch Council or something. It's a pity in some ways that we don't have spell lores that everyone has access to. Spells like the above I feel are actually good for the game (especially since you can only cast it once), but shouldn't be restricted to only a certain faction.

[BunkhouseBuster]

40 minutes ago, someone2040 said:

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In general, the game probably needs more interesting spells to counter certain styles of gameplay. Here's one: Hurricane - Casting roll 5+, Select a visible unit that can fly within 36", that unit halves it's movement speed and subtracts 1 from hit rolls until your next Hero phase. This spell is obviously useless if your opponent has no flying units, but maybe you think half your opponents will be Kharadron Overlords or Skyfires. So you take the risk, and pick the spell.

I dunno, give it to Eldritch Council or something. It's a pity in some ways that we don't have spell lores that everyone has access to. Spells like the above I feel are actually good for the game (especially since you can only cast it once), but shouldn't be restricted to only a certain faction.

Oh!  I think you are on to something!  How about a list of some basic, not-too-powerful spells that are available to certain armies, Allegiances, or even to any wizard spell?  How about Hero traits and artifacts that increase ranges on spells and dispelling?  One time use bonus items, and maybe a special table for Wizards getting stronger over campaigns depending on the winds of magic.  Sounds to me like something that would be a good appendix for the next General's Handbook!  Give some of them points costs for Matched play to balance them out too.

[Davariel]

@someone2040 Have you used Teclis from the High Elves compendium? He has a (very useful) spell similar to what you describe - it deals a mortal wound and halves an enemy unit's movement. 

TBH I think magic could easily be expanded upon, at the moment it's kind of an afterthought unless you're Tzeentch or Gnarlroot Sylvaneth. I'm not sure exactly how you'd do it whilst keeping the simplicity of the current rules, though. Perhaps some sort of passive buff granted by wizards in addition to their current abilities?

[Tokyo Nift]

I really would love to see spells that aren't just "do mortal wounds" or "give a buff that could easily be a generic ability." Scintillating Simulacra is the best example I can think of this, and would love to see more reasons to bring wizards instead of cannons. Especially since even in matched play you get to pick your spells at the start of the game. Would love to see a "Lore" that allowed you to choose between sniping spells, debuff spells, etc. Without being too powerful

[Gilby]

You know what could be interesting...

Death units treat mortal wounds as normal wounds. They aren't mortal, so it could work from a narrative perspective. It'd give mortal wounds a hard counter forcing more diversification. It'd give death a bit of a buff which they could definitely do with. Just an idea.