SCGT Rankings and top three lists

[Fungrim]

2 minutes ago, Killax said:

I think that 10 for 100 are no issue, it's more that after the 20+ they still come at the same price and become significantly better  
* It's very difficult to put a price on synergy, except when the unit synergizes with itself  

SCGT does have some nice House-rules however, I hope that a lot of them will be included in Matched Play for the upcomming Generals Handbook. Granted they still might want to do something 'bout dis: 

 

 

I think that's it though, anything that gets benefits from mass numbers should probably be priced appropriately. 120 points seem fair, and that extra 60 points from a 30-man unit would probably change someones list more than you'd think (reducing the flexibility of Mixed Chaos shenanigans).

I'd also argue that 10 Bloodletters is still considerably better than a lot of other battleline at 100 points (mortal wounds, battleshock regain, hit modifiers)

 

SCGT does have some nice House-rules however, I hope that a lot of them will be included in Matched Play for the upcomming Generals Handbook. Granted they still might want to do something 'bout dis: 

 

I'm not entirely sure what you can do to be honest - I think the points changes in GHB2 will fix a lot of stuff like that. But shooting is a big part of the game and the only way you can really avoid it being OP is by democratising it (which GW is gradually doing as it updates/releases each army). Folk forget, we're still in the early years of a new game, and no doubt the meta will keep changing with each release (enter Kharadron)

 

 

 

[Iain]

I think the winning list is hilarious because you can tell exactly what it does just be reading the list. I've seen all those parts separately but bringing it together does show creativity and fair play to them. Up to GW to rebalance some of those points if they're too generous.  

[Killax]

16 minutes ago, Fungrim said:

 

I think that's it though, anything that gets benefits from mass numbers should probably be priced appropriately. 120 points seem fair, and that extra 60 points from a 30-man unit would probably change someones list more than you'd think (reducing the flexibility of Mixed Chaos shenanigans).

I'd also argue that 10 Bloodletters is still considerably better than a lot of other battleline at 100 points (mortal wounds, battleshock regain, hit modifiers)

 

I'm not entirely sure what you can do to be honest - I think the points changes in GHB2 will fix a lot of stuff like that. But shooting is a big part of the game and the only way you can really avoid it being OP is by democratising it (which GW is gradually doing as it updates/releases each army). Folk forget, we're still in the early years of a new game, and no doubt the meta will keep changing with each release (enter Kharadron)

Well there is a lot of space left for Notes  I'd suggest that the units that are bought after the initial 20 should be more expensive. 120 or 150 could certainly be considerd.
I'd say I'd argue that Bloodletters arn't even that scary in the overall picture, what you want to do is get them to 19 asap. 30 of these cats running around should give you more than enough of a template to deal with, is worthy to be prime priority (300 points) and can be dealt with by all kinds of means (because they are melee orientated).

Shooting (rules technical) can be dealt with through a couple of ideas (not mine, just plucked here from the forums):
- Have a clear and better resolvement of LoS. Essentially bring back the option to protect Leaders from being quite easily sniped out.
- Consider a shooting in melee penalty, which very well could become:
- If enemies are 3" near your model your ranged attack goes to 3" range. 

I'm most certainly not willing to let go of shooting being a big part, what you however do see is that there is a continuous high placement of lists that also have a considerable shooting module (or more as 1). Which can certainly be used as a proof that shooting in a SCGT House rules setting isn't 'restricted' at all, where double named ability effects for example are. Which in other terms often means that you either:
A. Have acces to (massive) shooting modules
B. Try to hope for the best and reach your opponent with enough model leverage

Threat ranges are always of the essence in any wargame and whilst those for melee are certainly limited enough I cannot say the same for those for ranged. 

[wayniac]

That first list made me throw up in my mouth. So filthy I've seen pigs that are cleaner.

What was the seraphon list that apparently did pretty well? Because everything I've read says they are garbage right now

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[Fungrim]

11 minutes ago, Killax said:

Shooting (rules technical) can be dealt with through a couple of ideas (not mine, just plucked here from the forums):
- Have a clear and better resolvement of LoS. Essentially bring back the option to protect Leaders from being quite easily sniped out.
- Consider a shooting in melee penalty, which very well could become:
- If enemies are 3" near your model your ranged attack goes to 3" range. 

Points 1 & 2 would be welcomed I think. Not 100% sold on #3 but I see the merit.

LoS is something I miss. 'oh your Kurnoths can see all the way from the other side of the board through 4 sets of Wyldwoods can they? Great. Wonderful....'

[Fyff]

18 minutes ago, wayniac said:

That first list made me throw up in my mouth. So filthy I've seen pigs that are cleaner.

What was the seraphon list that apparently did pretty well? Because everything I've read says they are garbage right now

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Allegiance: Order
Lord Kroak
Saurus Eternity Warden
Saurus Astrolith Bearer
Skink Priest
Skink Starseer
10 x Skinks
10 x Skinks
5 x Saurus Guard
9 x Ripperdactyl Riders
Shadowstrike Starhost
Balewind Vortex

[Arkiham]

22 minutes ago, wayniac said:

That first list made me throw up in my mouth. So filthy I've seen pigs that are cleaner.

What was the seraphon list that apparently did pretty well? Because everything I've read says they are garbage right now

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Only done well as alot of chaos daemons. Seraphon gain alot of bonuses against that.

Kroak does d3 against normal things, so 3d6" range +8" doubled on balewind. So entire board. 

Chaos suffers d6 mortal wounds to every daemon unit within range, d3 against mortals. Then comets call and then arcane bolt. Every turn.

Absolute shock and awe against chaos.

[Dan Heelan]

2 hours ago, Sutek said:

 Most of the games finished in under an hour.  SCGT was a great AoS tournament from about table twenty downwards.  Above that they all seemed to be playing 40K.

Not true at all I am afraid. This year was a record number of games going to the time. If you've seen a Kunnin Ruk roll dice you will know they aren't quick games most of the time ;-) It was actually only really the last round where a lot of the shooting arrived, was a good mix before hand.

2 hours ago, Thor said:

He did what 

Yes its true - box on floor, 'whose is this'? Pretty 'famous' army is Ben Johnson's SCE so you can't really miss whose it was :-)

10 hours ago, Galas said:

That first list is so cheesy that I had use it to make a sandwich!

Poor death... not a single list in the top 20  

Actually death where there or there abouts over the weekend (albeit not super popular in event), just didn't come off for them in the rounds vs the two best lists in the game (nor did it for many other races....) when they hit the Mixed Destro/Beast or Tz. Check out the game on twitch.tv/warhammer where Best Death Tony played the 27 sky fire list - he was well in it all the way.

Biggest surprise for me (if you believe what you read on the internet about Slyvaneth) was that they were nowhere for most of the event despite being massively represented.

[Gaz Taylor]

25 minutes ago, Dan Heelan said:

Biggest surprise for me (if you believe what you read on the internet about Slyvaneth) was that they were nowhere for most of the event despite being massively represented.

Do you think this is because the army is not as straight forwards as the ones we have seen in the top three (for example) or do you think it was bad luck/not playing scenarios?

[KnightFire]

1 minute ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Do you think this is because the army is not as straight forwards as the ones we have seen in the top three (for example) or do you think it was bad luck/not playing scenarios?

It could be because everyone knew sylvaneth would be popular at the event, and lots of the top armies were picked in part because they have a good match up against sylvaneth. It would be interesting to see not just what the most popular armies were overall, but also what armies were popular in specific ranges of tables.

[Sutek]

31 minutes ago, Dan Heelan said:

Not true at all I am afraid. This year was a record number of games going to the time. If you've seen a Kunnin Ruk roll dice you will know they aren't quick games most of the time ;-) It was actually only really the last round where a lot of the shooting arrived, was a good mix before hand.

 

After my fourth round game finished early I went to look at the top tables and it was only the Kunning Ruk players still playing. Maybe that was an exception. No criticism of the event intended by the way Dan, it was awesome as usual. 

[ageofpaddsmar]

Was it a special rule for this tournament to take terrain. How did the seraphon guy get a balewind vortex and how many points are they

[Fungrim]

It looks (from a very removed, external perspective) that the scenarios could be really well exploited by some armies, but not all. Even more so true for Mixed forces rather than pure faction

 

[Fungrim]

1 minute ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

Was it a special rule for this tournament to take terrain. How did the seraphon guy get a balewind vortex and how many points are they

Balewind Vortex is a piece of terrain you can summon. Costs 100 pts. Anyone can take!

[ageofpaddsmar]

Awesome thanks. But i guess he cant pass damage onto his guard unit as he would be out of range

 

[Iain]

Does anyone know how Alex played the Tzaangor Shamen in his winning list? (what spells, tactics etc)

[Rhellion]

8 minutes ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

Awesome thanks. But i guess he cant pass damage onto his guard unit as he would be out of range

 

correct

[ageofpaddsmar]

Also where can i find the points for all the terrain pieces 

[Fungrim]

3 minutes ago, ageofpaddsmar said:

Also where can i find the points for all the terrain pieces 

In the app, on Scroll Builder, or here https://www.games-workshop.com/en-WW/Rules-Errata (under Pitched Battle Profiles)

 

(only 2 terrain types have points)

[Gaz Taylor]

8 minutes ago, Iain said:

Does anyone know how Alex played the Tzaangor Shamen in his winning list? (what spells, tactics etc)

Not seen the last game yet but I'm guessing it hung around the Skyfires buffing them for shooting and casting Mystic Shield on itself or maybe having Fold Reality to bring back Skyfires

 

30 minutes ago, KnightFire said:

It could be because everyone knew sylvaneth would be popular at the event, and lots of the top armies were picked in part because they have a good match up against sylvaneth. It would be interesting to see not just what the most popular armies were overall, but also what armies were popular in specific ranges of tables.

That's true. Knowing Dan, Wayne and Russ, they will be doing a review and we will probably see some comments out soon (most likely via Podcast).

[Iain]

@Gaz Taylor What buffs can it give to the skyfires?

[Gaz Taylor]

1 minute ago, Iain said:

@Gaz Taylor What buffs can it give to the skyfires?

Preternatural Enhancement.

So they get +1 to hit just by the Shaman being nearby!  

[Nico]

Quote

What I mean is, sure the skyfires need turning down but so much of the Tzeentch book is competitively worthless. Ergo, balance. Don't just nerf the skyfires, then dot will drop. Also, the top list doesn't use Tzeentch combat.

I really wish that Skyfires didn't exist. Exactly what I predicted would happen is playing out. The Skyfires have come and wrecked face and made everyone else hate DoT and rate them as OP. As people and TOs are reluctant to adjust points, they do the only other thing they can, which is to rule against DoT on rules queries (Changeling deployment, DD on Mortal Wounds, Split and attempts to rewrite Windthief Charm spring to mind).

Very happy to have an immediate recosting of Skyfires, but coupled with some FAQ answers going DoT's way (I've given up on the mortal wounds one) and some of the hopeless Daemon units being made cheaper (Screamers, Flamers, Exalted Flamers, Chariots even Kairos).

Granted no one took all the anti-Skyfires buffs in the Hallowed Knights and smashed face as I also predicted.

[Nico]

Quote

Biggest surprise for me (if you believe what you read on the internet about Slyvaneth) was that they were nowhere for most of the event despite being massively represented.

Everything has changed for Sylvaneth. They were great on release, but have been repeatedly nerfed on rules queries and have now have become a very predictable army (having only about 6 viable Warscrolls doesn't engender flexibility).

The Sylvaneth playstyle is dependent on taking turn one, spreading the Wyldwoods and the enemy running into the Wyldwoods and fighting there. With other armies now doing single drop armies, Kurnoth Hunters no longer being the dominant long ranged Pew Pew (Raptors plus defensive buffs vs Pew Pew, Skyfires and now KO), Sylvaneth now face the prospect of dealing with a lot of bunker gunlines that they cannot outshoot (only rend -1 is a big weakness). Sylvaneth's answer* to a bunker is to deploy 6 Hunters 9" away and then fail the charge - so they have a real problem here.

DoT are also a horrendous hard counter to Sylvaneth generally. Khorne auto unbinds don't help either. 

*Dreadwood is an option, but who of you has even seen a Spite Revenant on the table?

[Cookiez]

Once again, I agree with you, @Nico . Nerfing Skyfires to the ground is not a solution, the thing they need to address is the faction as a whole. And did they wreck face actually that hard? First list is Skyfire-heavy, ok, but it's the overall units strength that played well, not just them. And the second one used only 6, which is ok for me.