Fluff Problems

[erasercrumbs]

My questions about the AOS afterlife have mostly been answered in the wake of Soul Wars.  Dead folks just go to a section of Shyish correlating to the deity they worshiped (no big surprise there), which is something Nagash is fine with because, apparently, he steadily feeds off their energy until they completely cease to exist.  Sigmar seems to be okay with this and the mortals seem to be largely unaware of it, which kind of leans towards grimdark.  Apparently, though, if you worship a Chaos god you are essentially rendered eternal (but tormented) in the Warp.  

[Envyus]

23 hours ago, erasercrumbs said:

My questions about the AOS afterlife have mostly been answered in the wake of Soul Wars.  Dead folks just go to a section of Shyish correlating to the deity they worshiped (no big surprise there), which is something Nagash is fine with because, apparently, he steadily feeds off their energy until they completely cease to exist.  Sigmar seems to be okay with this and the mortals seem to be largely unaware of it, which kind of leans towards grimdark.  Apparently, though, if you worship a Chaos god you are essentially rendered eternal (but tormented) in the Warp.  

Your soul goes to the Realm of Chaos after death, were they are ether rewarded or punished depending on how the gods feel.

 

And Dead Folks don't go to a section of Shyish correlating to the deity they worship. An afterlife takes shape there based on what they believe and they go there. Which depending on which god they worship can cause it to take certain forms. (This can bring into existence new Death Gods that Nagash then goes and devours. ) Nagash will also go and take control of those afterlives and such.

The reason Sigmar seems to largely be ok with this, is because all the souls were promised to Nagash. He actully broke their deal by creating the Stormcast.

[erasercrumbs]

2 hours ago, Envyus said:

Your soul goes to the Realm of Chaos after death, were they are ether rewarded or punished depending on how the gods feel.

 

And Dead Folks don't go to a section of Shyish correlating to the deity they worship. An afterlife takes shape there based on what they believe and they go there. Which depending on which god they worship can cause it to take certain forms. (This can bring into existence new Death Gods that Nagash then goes and devours. ) Nagash will also go and take control of those afterlives and such.

The reason Sigmar seems to largely be ok with this, is because all the souls were promised to Nagash. He actully broke their deal by creating the Stormcast.

Actually, I was pretty much paraphrasing from the official Warhammer Community Soul Wars page.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/06/07/7th-june-the-war-for-soulsgw-homepage-post-2/

Straight from the horse's mouth.

[Envyus]

On 6/16/2018 at 10:01 PM, erasercrumbs said:

Actually, I was pretty much paraphrasing from the official Warhammer Community Soul Wars page.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/06/07/7th-june-the-war-for-soulsgw-homepage-post-2/

Straight from the horse's mouth.

None of that contradicts what I said.

[Baron Klatz]

Haha, last two Malign Portents stories basically talked about this and how Nagash is changing those things up for his new grand plans.

The Sigmarite souls thread on the other page covered this too thanks our Death lore guru, Shinros.

As for the fluff, and I say this as a warhammer fantasy fanatic since 2008 that's collected tons of it's armybooks and rpgs, it's phenomenal!

The only grievance was the skipping over the Age of Myth's wonders and the glorious battles that saw the rise of the Age of Chaos and dropped us right into the what would be the climax of evil being defeated by an godly army of legend as we saw Sigmar's reconquest of the realms.

Besides that though I can't commend GW enough for building on the setting and using every hint they dropped in the beginning to create plot hooks and hints that are even being revealed now years later.

We've gone from an uncertain age of gods battling gods as their heroic followers did the impossible and at great cost(and thanks to the players as well for securing the seeds of hope for future setting growth ) to set the stage and now are at a time where we see a dynamic setting of countless kingdoms plunged into the dark ages with their lands ravaged by madness. Then the gods had taken a backseat to repair the damage and allow their peoples to settle new cities and kingdom while industrialization struggles to find a foothold in such vast lands of magic and monsters. Then comes this new age we are in where magic and superstition reign again as the gods begin to move once more for war.

All this takes place in an epic fantasy universe where fortresses can be made of stone or alive and moving, continents fly above pasture lands roamed by gargantuan beasts under the shadows of mountains that may be breathing and traveling in one direction may lead you to fertile and calm farmlands and castles while the opposite path you may cross wild magic that has mountains combusting into dragons of flame and forests being uplifted into the clouds while leaving a ravine of priceless realmstones but are guarded by things that have not seen the light since the god-beasts were broken by Sigmar and his pantheon. All this and you're only getting a mere PINPRICK of what's happening in one realm.

There's so many accounts of mortals still dealing with all that and being brazen enough to build upon that magic and strange landscapes like the Ironjawz battletome which tells of kings and beastlords alike using everything from floating islands upon mountain tops, eldritch moats that consume any that pass by to fortresses with legs that constantly travel the inhospitable lands to create kingdoms that'd survive the new Ironjawz onslaughts.

It's just such an amazing ride to see what's around the next corner and beyond the horizon in this ever expanding story and how everything we've explored gets detailed further with every new release.

[erasercrumbs]

9 hours ago, Envyus said:

None of that contradicts what I said.

Okay?  

[MacDuff]

On May 23, 2018 at 6:05 AM, chord said:

One of the most impressive AoS blogs had this to say about the narrative turn 

https://ttgamingdiary.wordpress.com/2018/04/23/i-have-an-issue-with-age-of-sigmar/

Interesting for somebody so into AoS narrative at one point

It seems this blog laments the loss of the kinds of narrative connectivity of the initial books, but for me I was less interested in the massive battles and their leaders. My itch to scratch is coming from Malign Portents' short stories involving ordinary people. I'd love to create a scenario to rescue Rayvan in The Forgotten Dead (and maybe liberate the soul of Vannah). Or help Verric escape from the Stormcast purge in Death  at the Door. Or even help Nurgle's Grulgoch survive after the death of Lord Slougous in The Hangman's Curse. Or rescue the last surviving trooper in the City of Heldelium in Beyond the Walls (and reunite him with Gyseyl). Or help plot the next move of Lord-Ordinator Vorrus Starstrike in the Warscryer Citadel, as told in The Great Toil. Or especially play out what happens when at Greywater Alarielle and Capain Loerson's Cog Forts march to war after Iron and Oak ends. Almost every one of those stories has inspiring loose threads.

[MacDuff]

Mr. Reynolds, I'm very pleased at your reaction. Having written all the LOTR games for EA, I could see how you're all working with GW as writers to provide a creative springboard for our own fantasies. Well done!

[chord]

16 hours ago, MacDuff said:

It seems this blog laments the loss of the kinds of narrative connectivity of the initial books, but for me I was less interested in the massive battles and their leaders. My itch to scratch is coming from Malign Portents' short stories involving ordinary people. I'd love to create a scenario to rescue Rayvan in The Forgotten Dead (and maybe liberate the soul of Vannah). Or help Verric escape from the Stormcast purge in Death  at the Door. Or even help Nurgle's Grulgoch survive after the death of Lord Slougous in The Hangman's Curse. Or rescue the last surviving trooper in the City of Heldelium in Beyond the Walls (and reunite him with Gyseyl). Or help plot the next move of Lord-Ordinator Vorrus Starstrike in the Warscryer Citadel, as told in The Great Toil. Or especially play out what happens when at Greywater Alarielle and Capain Loerson's Cog Forts march to war after Iron and Oak ends. Almost every one of those stories has inspiring loose threads.

Interesting since I have a less than zero interest in ordinary people.  I'll just buy less GW stuff.

[michu]

Without normal people the Mortal Realms would be just a playground of armies that fight for no reason. I like both Realmgate Wars and Malign Portents, but considering the reaction of people the latter was more succesful for GW. Short stories, for free, with descriptions of influence of Nagash's Grand Plan on life in the Mortal Realms (and description of Seraphons, that is considered more engaging than their battletome) won over the hearts of people. Buying a series of expensive books for being able to play some narrative games turned out to not being so popular.

[Baron Klatz]

Not that I disagree but that success and change of heart happened earlier too in 2016 with the non-human race Sylvaneth and Alarielle's appearance as we battled for the cities in the realm of life. Also mind the early 2015 books had people in them too along with the short story "Daemons of the Deep" where we saw a Sigmarite city abandon a unpure baby until Nurgle intervened.

So really I think it's just best in general that AoS keeps combining these factors of the more mundane crossing the path of epic fantasy between battling gods and the taming of eldritch lands.

Also don't worry Chord, those stories showed just as much high fantasy with the actions of angry gods and realm altering magics far beyond mortal kin.

You'll still have your armies of legends fighting under the gaze and command of the gods.

 

Sadly though I just realized the fellow who quit AoS was also known as MongooseMatt in other forums. I loved his enthusiastic reviews and battle reports. I don't blame for his choice (it's a hobby afterall) but I do hope he gives it another chance one day.

[chord]

17 minutes ago, michu said:

Without normal people the Mortal Realms would be just a playground of armies that fight for no reason. 

Well they did title it "Mighty Battles in an Age of unending war"  ?

[Baron Klatz]

Haha, since AoS' timeline is divided by ages you can take that "age of unending war" as the endless battles against chaos and the ruined realms in the "Age of Chaos" too.

[michu]

I understand @chord, but I believe that when you read a book you have to be able to smell the gunpowder of soldier's musket or stench of fish sold on the market. You have to be able to immerse yourself in the described world. As much as I liked early AoS fluff it wasn't enough. It wasn't bad as other was saying, but now it's definitely a rich world full of potential. For both mighty heroes and common men

[Baron Klatz]

And by a fellow's glance at the new book we should be getting a lot more.

Not really, I just did take a look because this past weekend the organizers of the Santiago GT (40k team tournament, 18 teams, 64 players) had a copy of the new AoSstarter to take a look at the endless spells, miniatures and rulebook. I spend like 2 minutes looking at the new lore, specially the nice drawings, etc... but is really , really complete, and as the organizer I was talking too said, this is the first time AoS feels like a complete universe.
And the fact this is all, for the most part, new lore, is refreshing after 20 years of reading the same thing again and again in 40k and fantasy.

Theres like 2 full pages for each realm, and each one of them has drawings of "citizens" of the realm. The ones I saw where some kind of aztec human from the realm of Life full of flowers and palm leafs, other from the realm of metal with a ton of clockwork stuff, etc... but my memory is a little muddy with the details of what those humans where wearing.

 

[chord]

2 hours ago, michu said:

I understand @chord, but I believe that when you read a book you have to be able to smell the gunpowder of soldier's musket or stench of fish sold on the market. You have to be able to immerse yourself in the described world. As much as I liked early AoS fluff it wasn't enough. It wasn't bad as other was saying, but now it's definitely a rich world full of potential. For both mighty heroes and common men

I was able to immerse myself in the high fantasy pretty easily.   I mean if I want to see commoners doing common stuff I can just look around our world.   But to each their own.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

I didn't mind the open nature of the fluff because it let me go wild creating.  I used to DM a lot back in the day so worldbuilding has never been a problem for me; I enjoy doing it.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I find it a little strange that people can’t do for AoS what they did for WFB and just fill in the blanks. For the Empire (excepting WFRP which was largely retconned out of existence by the time of 4thEd) there wasn’t any great detail beyond the Military units or history it was just broad stokes. Everyone just accepted that humans farmed/ built/ travelled/interacted in a similar way to how they did in the real world unless it was specifically mention otherwise (riding dragons for example).  

AoS dropped and suddenly it has to provide the minute detail on the crop rotation policy for the Brimstone Peninsular between the Autumnal and Winter equinox (I exaggerate of course but that’s how it felt sometimes). Along with some sort of way of telepathically imprinting this into people’s minds without them having to read any of the source material. 

[shinros]

58 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I find it a little strange that people can’t do for AoS what they did for WFB and just fill in the blanks. For the Empire (excepting WFRP which was largely retconned out of existence by the time of 4thEd) there wasn’t any great detail beyond the Military units or history it was just broad stokes. Everyone just accepted that humans farmed/ built/ travelled/interacted in a similar way to how they did in the real world unless it was specifically mention otherwise (riding dragons for example).  

AoS dropped and suddenly it has to provide the minute detail on the crop rotation policy for the Brimstone Peninsular between the Autumnal and Winter equinox (I exaggerate of course but that’s how it felt sometimes). Along with some sort of way of telepathically imprinting this into people’s minds without them having to read any of the source material. 

Cause most people don't read the books, or know the lore. Most of the lore that lines the wiki came from the roleplay books. As you said the army books were broad strokes. For example warriors of chaos had repeated information in the army book which was written several editions ago.

At the end of the day most people don't read the books, or know most of the lore for whfb came from the roleplay books. As you said the army books were broad strokes. I mean hell Josh Reynolds answered quite an interesting question about how well fantasy books were doing. The tweet was also liked by Gav Thorpe. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Cause most people don't read the books, or know most of the lore for whfb came from the roleplay books. As you said the army books were broad strokes. I mean hell Josh Reynolds answered quite an interesting question about how well fantasy books were doing. The tweet was also liked by Gav Thorpe. 

Yeah I saw that he is well worth a follow on Twitter as he posts up some very interesting stuff 

[JReynolds]

28 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I find it a little strange that people can’t do for AoS what they did for WFB and just fill in the blanks. For the Empire (excepting WFRP which was largely retconned out of existence by the time of 4thEd) there wasn’t any great detail beyond the Military units or history it was just broad stokes. Everyone just accepted that humans farmed/ built/ travelled/interacted in a similar way to how they did in the real world unless it was specifically mention otherwise (riding dragons for example).  

AoS dropped and suddenly it has to provide the minute detail on the crop rotation policy for the Brimstone Peninsular between the Autumnal and Winter equinox (I exaggerate of course but that’s how it felt sometimes). Along with some sort of way of telepathically imprinting this into people’s minds without them having to read any of the source material. 

Mostly, I suspect that had to do with WHF's pseudo-historical grounding, as far as the human factions were concerned. If it *looked* like the Holy Roman Empire or Medieval France, then it was easy to assume it functioned the same way.  Too, details accrue over time - even if the WFRP elements were largely stripped out over successive editions, people (some people) *remembered* them, which added to their understanding of the setting as a whole. And they shared that understanding with others, which led to details being disseminated across generations of players. That led, I think, to WHF having a 'lived in' feel.

And what I think many people wanted was for AOS to have that same feeling of accrued detail - and it couldn't. Still can't, really. That kind of thing takes time and care to build - it takes multiple editions, tie-in novels, RPGs and player discussion. Too, it was intended - initially, at least - that the bulk of that kind of world-building would be done in the initial wave of BL books (or so it was explained to me by my editor at the time). So if you didn't read the BL books, you weren't getting any real basic details - the place names, the landmarks, etc. - that we were trying to thread into the stories.  Which unfortunately meant that AOS seemed fairly empty as a setting. 

That's actually the reason I started linking all of my AOS stuff together...it was the quickest way to build that sense of detail on my end. 

[shinros]

7 minutes ago, JReynolds said:

Mostly, I suspect that had to do with WHF's pseudo-historical grounding, as far as the human factions were concerned. If it *looked* like the Holy Roman Empire or Medieval France, then it was easy to assume it functioned the same way.  Too, details accrue over time - even if the WFRP elements were largely stripped out over successive editions, people (some people) *remembered* them, which added to their understanding of the setting as a whole. And they shared that understanding with others, which led to details being disseminated across generations of players. That led, I think, to WHF having a 'lived in' feel.

And what I think many people wanted was for AOS to have that same feeling of accrued detail - and it couldn't. Still can't, really. That kind of thing takes time and care to build - it takes multiple editions, tie-in novels, RPGs and player discussion. Too, it was intended - initially, at least - that the bulk of that kind of world-building would be done in the initial wave of BL books (or so it was explained to me by my editor at the time). So if you didn't read the BL books, you weren't getting any real basic details - the place names, the landmarks, etc. - that we were trying to thread into the stories.  Which unfortunately meant that AOS seemed fairly empty as a setting. 

That's actually the reason I started linking all of my AOS stuff together...it was the quickest way to build that sense of detail on my end. 

Funny enough someone said something similar after I recommend spear of shadows to him, he said he preferred the historical aspect of WHFB. That the story was interesting but too "fantastical" Here are his exact words. 

"I mean I started giving spear of shadows a read... and... I mean its interesting but it still doesn't feel like Warhammer Fantasy. It feels like this overly fantastical world that isn't ground in that deep sense of history that Fantasy had."

I then argued that the fact it was historical and extremely defined actually made things harder to write, because in my eyes the world barely changed or the characters could not do much because the setting was too far set in stone. After reading your recent tweet on BL sales and books I just think majority of people don't actually read the books but prefer to look up all the information on the wiki's. Hence the prevalence of memes over actual lore both in 40k and AOS.  Like Malerion fusing with his dragon, sigmar creating the realms, Slaanesh is dead, Failabbadon, etc. 

All the information is there, but people don't want to put the time or money to read the information. While WHFB had years to gather and put the information together on an easily accessible wiki. Hence why on release people pointed saying that it's not grounded, or that normal people did not exist when they do. Or maybe I am just being too cynical? 

[Ollie Grimwood]

I don’t think anything has really changed in that the detail of the setting is in the BL fiction that was the way with WFB as well. 

@JReynolds I guess you’re right on the lived in feel, though I think some of the  criticism  and comparison has been a little unfair. Humans doing human stuff is something we should largely be able to work out for ourselves. But judging from the comments I’ve read maybe I’m wrong. 

 

[JReynolds]

21 minutes ago, shinros said:

Funny enough someone said something similar after I recommend spear of shadows to him, he said he preferred the historical aspect of WHFB. That the story was interesting but too "fantastical" Here are his exact words. 

"I mean I started giving spear of shadows a read... and... I mean its interesting but it still doesn't feel like Warhammer Fantasy. It feels like this overly fantastical world that isn't ground in that deep sense of history that Fantasy had."

I then argued that the fact it was historical and extremely defined actually made things harder to write, because in my eyes the world barely changed or the characters could not do much because the setting was too far set in stone. After reading your recent tweet on BL sales and books I just think majority of people don't actually read the books but prefer to look up all the information on the wiki's. Hence the prevalence of memes over actual lore both in 40k and AOS.  Like Malerion fusing with his dragon, sigmar creating the realms, Slaanesh is dead, Failabbadon, etc. 

All the information is there, but people don't want to put the time or money to read the information. While WHFB had years to gather and put the information together on an easily accessible wiki. Hence why on release people pointed saying that it's not grounded, or that normal people did not exist when they do. Or maybe I am just being too cynical? 

Not cynical so much as realistic. I think people like to have the background for a game all in one place, or easy to hand - we've been trained to look for that, in a game. Big fat core books go a long way to scratching that itch, as do wikis (which have the added benefit of being free). Novels require a greater expenditure of effort, both in time and money. Too, tie-in novels often have a symbiotic relationship with the background - they work best together, to reinforce the little details in a way that helps the reader immerse themselves in the setting more fully.

On top of that, many people mistrust tie-in novels or see them as simply hack work, for a variety of reasons - some good, some bad - so they won't trust background that comes solely from that source, as most of AOS' background did, up until recently.  Also, as a side note, that quote from your friend is telling - what they likely wanted was a Warhammer Fantasy novel. What they got was an Age of Sigmar novel. Few to none of the familiar tropes or touchstones that a reader might be looking for, which leads to dissatisfaction. They wanted a familiar experience, and got something close, but ultimately different. Which is pretty much AOS in a nutshell.

tldr; people want background for their games, and they want it quick, (relatively) cheap and plentiful.  If it's not easily available, they may decide that it's not there at all.  It is what it is, neither a good thing nor bad. 

[JReynolds]

38 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

I don’t think anything has really changed in that the detail of the setting is in the BL fiction that was the way with WFB as well. 

@JReynolds I guess you’re right on the lived in feel, though I think some of the  criticism  and comparison has been a little unfair. Humans doing human stuff is something we should largely be able to work out for ourselves. But judging from the comments I’ve read maybe I’m wrong. 

 

Possibly a bit unfair, but understandable. I also think many of those complaints - at least those regarding people doing people things - were mostly hyperbolic. Symbolic of what folks saw as a weakness in the setting. No one really cares about the unseen farmers - they care about not being able to visualise them tilling their fields, between battles. We need that sort of thing, because it adds colour to the setting. But it's also the sort of thing that gets cut out of novels, because it's often an unnecessary aside, or may take the reader out of the story.