Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[zedatkinszed]

1 hour ago, Thomas Lyons said:

I like where your head's at.  I'm a big fan of the Executioners and think they bring an interesting element to the table.  Let me offer a variant on your list that you might appreciate:

• Blood Cult Alliance 2000pts
  • Sisterhood Battalion
    • 1 Cauldron (witch brew)
    • 1 Death hag (Deathsword)
    • 30 Witch Aelves
    • 30 Witch Aelves
    • 5 Warlocks
    • 5 Warlocks
    • 1 Bloodwrack Medusa
  • Outside Battalion
    • 1 Cauldron (witch brew)
  • Allies
    • 10 Executioners
    • 10 Executioners

If you don't mind paying a little bit more, this list lowers your drops by 1, down to 4 and splits that pack of 20 Executioners into more usable units (as they gain nothing from being dropped as one unit, while they gain the ability to split up to different objectives this way).  The Bloodwrack shrine was downgraded to a Medusa in exchange for upgrading the two blocks of 20 Witch Elves up to 30 each.  While this may look like a bad thing for the Medusa, it is actually a huge boon in matched play as you'll gain mobility (high movement, smaller base) while being able to hide behind terrain and minimize being snipe off the table.  This force solves some of the mortal wounds issues (through both the warlocks and the Executioners), although it has no response to Lord Kroak on a Balewind.

Nice one. Yeah this is good. Honestly I don't think the DoK faction can handle the "frog on the tornado" - maybe with a different allies but the Execs have good bang for their buck. 

[James Ramsay]

If you're going to use 2-3 cauldrons, why not 4? 80% reduction in damage for models within 9 of all 4, which again is really quite easy with 25mm bases and makes the cauldrons themselves very very tough (over 100 rend - wounds to kill 1) Put as many elves as possible around them. Ridiculously hard army to beat on objectives and is only really weak to 2+ reroll, has enough attacks to get through anything else I feel.

If they ever fix the old witch elf formation then not even 2+ reroll will be an issue.

[zedatkinszed]

29 minutes ago, James Ramsay said:

If you're going to use 2-3 cauldrons, why not 4? 80% reduction in damage for models within 9 of all 4, which again is really quite easy with 25mm bases and makes the cauldrons themselves very very tough (over 100 rend - wounds to kill 1) Put as many elves as possible around them. Ridiculously hard army to beat on objectives and is only really weak to 2+ reroll, has enough attacks to get through anything else I feel.

If they ever fix the old witch elf formation then not even 2+ reroll will be an issue.

This does make math-hammer sense but the first problem is getting 4 on the table with as many Aelves as possible. With the above lists you'd have to drop the Medusa, 5 Warlocks and 10 Executioners replacing them with 2 Cauldrons, a Death Hag and 10 more Witches. For their tactical roles 10 Executioners and the Medusa are better than 10 more Witches and a Death Hag.

The second problem is the financial cost 4 Cauldrons and 7 units of witches with 1 unit of Executioners and warlocks is €520 (buying as many of the Blood Coven box deals as possible). The above list is €50 ($60) cheaper and the one before that (with 2 units of 20 Witches) was €95 (over a $100) cheaper.

I also feel that 4 Cauldrons with 3 units of Witches is a little "Cauldron Spamy" for my taste - If I had 4 units of Wicthes fine but more Cauldrons than units is a bit of a red flag for me. Plus if the day ever comes that GW decides Ward Saves don't stack then 4 cauldrons is an expensive waste of cash.

[James Ramsay]

I probably wouldn't go for a formation if I was just taking lots of cauldrons and witch elves. They are both very efficient points wise for how tough they are and will clear other horde armies very well...even 2+ save stuff will take lots and lots of wounds over a few rounds especially if you double stack a cauldron buff and then give them fight twice. 

 

Elite tough with 2+ or 3+ reroll is probably too tough but at least you can tarpit them down and hold the objectives.

Remember you don't need every model within 9 of the cauldron, just the ones you want to allocate saves to. 

[zedatkinszed]

2 hours ago, James Ramsay said:

I probably wouldn't go for a formation if I was just taking lots of cauldrons and witch elves. They are both very efficient points wise for how tough they are and will clear other horde armies very well...even 2+ save stuff will take lots and lots of wounds over a few rounds especially if you double stack a cauldron buff and then give them fight twice. 

It's a good point that would leave a list like this:

1990pts

• Daughter's of Khaine
  • Cauldron (Deathsword) - General
  • 3 Cauldrons (witch brew)
  • 1 Death hag (Deathsword)
  • 30 Witch Aelves
  • 30 Witch Aelves
  • 30 Witch Aelves
  • 5 Warlocks
• Allies
  • 10 Black Guard

You could drop the Black Guard for 5 Warlocks or for 5 Drakespawn Knights. The BGs are not as good as Execs and this is also wasting 10pts

Cost wise this would be €625 or $737. 

Obviously as a veteran Dark Elf player I have most of this myself (I'd need 4 more Witch boxes and another Blood Coven box) but this is not achievable for anyone starting an AOS army. I'd also be worried that it lacks the punch that 10 or 20 Executioners give it.

But this is less spammy with 3 Cauldrons backing 3 Witch units and 1 Cauldron General.

[zedatkinszed]

An alternative is:

Death Cult Alliance 2000pts

• Daughters
  • Battalion
    • 1 Cauldron (1 Deathsword)
    • 1 Death hags (witch brew)
    • 30 Witch Aelves
    • 30 Witch Aelves
    • 10 Warlocks
    • 2 Medusae
  • Outside Battalion
    • 1 Death hags (witch brew)
    • 1 Cauldron (1 Deathsword)
• Allies
  • 20 Black Ark Corsairs
  • 1 Black Ark Fleetmaster
  • 10 Executioners

The Warlock could be split in two and the battalion could be swapped out for a Bloodwrack Shrine or if you drop the second hag too then you can get 20 more Witches. This list puts 11-13 units on the table. 127 models if you drop the battalion (And 2nd Hag) and take the 80 Witches option. Again the financial cost is completely crazy and I'd love to see a full analysis of 20 Witches VS the battalion + Death Hag.  But I think this is the one for me.

[Payce]

1 hour ago, zedatkinszed said:

An alternative is:

Death Cult Alliance 2000pts

• Daughters
  • Battalion
    • 1 Cauldron (1 Deathsword)
    • 1 Death hags (witch brew)
    • 30 Witch Aelves
    • 30 Witch Aelves
    • 10 Warlocks
    • 2 Medusae
  • Outside Battalion
    • 1 Death hags (witch brew)
    • 1 Cauldron (1 Deathsword)
• Allies
  • 20 Black Ark Corsairs
  • 1 Black Ark Fleetmaster
  • 10 Executioners

The Warlock could be split in two and the battalion could be swapped out for a Bloodwrack Shrine or if you drop the second hag too then you can get 20 more Witches. This list puts 11-13 units on the table. 127 models if you drop the battalion (And 2nd Hag) and take the 80 Witches option. Again the financial cost is completely crazy and I'd love to see a full analysis of 20 Witches VS the battalion + Death Hag.  But I think this is the one for me.

I'd strongly suggest against this list, for a number of reasons:

First and foremost, the primary reason to take the battalion is to reduce the number of drops and manipulate deployment in your favour. To take five whole units outside of it lands you on six drops, and you'll effectively be paying 140 points for an advantage that's not really an advantage anymore. Those points are likely far more worth somewhere else.

Secondly, the Privateers are really not complementing what you want to do. Their shooting is below average, the combat capacity is below average, the Fleetmaster is potentially one of the (if not the) worst characters in the entire game. My experience from playing Darkling Covens in the previous GHB also suggests 10 Executioners doesn't really do much alone. You want the full 20 - once casualties hit (and they will, as you will have everything pointed at them) those 6's become fewer and fewer. I agree they're one of the best options for allies, however.

If your primary concern is the financial cost, you're going to struggle regardless. Witches are stupidly expensive no matter how you turn it, so it's going to be an investment building this army. My biggest advice for getting them cheaper is finding the old pewter ones on eBay. I also had some success getting the Witch bodies from bits reseller, and use the Sisters-bits from the Witch kits. And you could always get the Daughters box set and try and sell off the Cauldron, which will still net you the Witches inside at about two thirds of the price. Lots of options

[GammaMage]

So, I notice a lot of lists that focus on Witch Aelves and have no Sisters of Slaughter. Am considering a unit of Sisters as allies to my Darkling Coven Army to screen my Executioners and Black Guard. I know they'd die to shooting, especially Judicators but I often play against Ironjaws or Bloodbound that have no shooting. Would throwing them at 'Ardboys and buffed up Reavers be a good plan?

[Payce]

As allies to another Aelf force, I think Sisters and Warlocks are by far the best choices, since they're least dependent on the Hag/Shield/Brew-synergy. I think a 30-strong Sisters unit in the meta you describe could be a good solution, though don't forget your own chaff - spearmen can do wonders in large bulks. Are you running the Warhost?

Sidenote: I plan to run 30 Sisters in my pure DoK army, they really are that strong now.

[GammaMage]

Yeah, I am running the Warhost, though I suspect I'm using my little dudes wrong, as I haven't had much success with either Darkshards or Dreadspears. Only the Bleakswords seem to do well.

[zedatkinszed]

On 8/24/2017 at 6:50 PM, Payce said:

First and foremost, the primary reason to take the battalion is to reduce the number of drops and manipulate deployment in your favour. To take five whole units outside of it lands you on six drops, and you'll effectively be paying 140 points for an advantage that's not really an advantage anymore. Those points are likely far more worth somewhere else.

Secondly, the Privateers are really not complementing what you want to do. Their shooting is below average, the combat capacity is below average, the Fleetmaster is potentially one of the (if not the) worst characters in the entire game. My experience from playing Darkling Covens in the previous GHB also suggests 10 Executioners doesn't really do much alone. You want the full 20 - once casualties hit (and they will, as you will have everything pointed at them) those 6's become fewer and fewer. I agree they're one of the best options for allies, however.

If your primary concern is the financial cost, you're going to struggle regardless. 

That's good food for thought 

Honestly though the cost isn't an issue personally (I have a huge Dark Elf collection with lots and lots of metal models - including Witches and a whole Darklings force of its own) . That list would have cost me €200 more than I've already spent which in the grand scheme is not a big deal. But I do like to keep an eye on the bang for the buck and a limit on my yearly Warhammer sending.

I think I'll go back to a version of the list myself and Tom discussed:

Blood Cult Alliance 2000pts

• Sisterhood Battalion
  • 1 Cauldron (witch brew)
  • 1 Death hag (Deathsword)
  • 30 Witch Aelves
  • 30 Witch Aelves
  • 5 Warlocks
  • 5 Warlocks
  • 1 Bloodwrack Medusa
• Outside Battalion
  • 1 Cauldron (witch brew)
  • 1 Death hag (Deathsword
• Allies
  • 20 Executioners

Now yeah, the 20 Execs can be replaced with 30 Sisters of Slaughter, and they would then drop with the battalion but the tactical advantage is:

• a 3 drop force rather than a 4 drop one
• a unit with 30 wounds on a 6+ save (4+ in combat) versus the Execs with 20 wounds on a 4+ save (all the time).

The cost of the above is €55 more. What anyone who's going to run a list with 90 Witches/Sisters models (rather than 60 and 20 Executioners) has got to ask themselves is "Will €55 for 10 more minis (on top of everything else) make the force better on the table with me as its General?" 

For me the answer is probably "no" but if find this list sucks then sure €135 is not a huge deal after Xmas. The issue I have with Sisters is getting them into combat. Once in they're beasts. Out in the field they're less survivable than Witches. At least with Execs or Blackguard you've a fighting chance of getting them into melee. With Sisters you are heavily reliant on terrain and screens and honestly an opponent worth their salt will know that Sisters need to be removed from a distance.

So that's my long winded solution but TY for the advice re: Corsairs. I was hearing good things about the Fleetmaster - maybe the only good thing is his pts cost.

[James Ramsay]

I've been finding the doomfire warlocks with lots of cauldrons excellent. They do alot of damage and are not awful in combat plus are fast for the objectives. I've been trying to keep it daughters of khaine allegiance so like using 2 units of them. Find them more survivable than an allied wizard. 

[Siegfried VII]

Personally I don't feel having multiple Cauldrons is a very good idea. Perhaps a second one for getting the help on both sides of the field but no more.

My resoning is that for 70points more we can get 30 more Witch Aelves and to me this seems like a better choce.

[James Ramsay]

2 hours ago, Siegfried VII said:

Personally I don't feel having multiple Cauldrons is a very good idea. Perhaps a second one for getting the help on both sides of the field but no more.

My resoning is that for 70points more we can get 30 more Witch Aelves and to me this seems like a better choce.

There's a lot of reasons why multiple cauldron makes more sense than having more elves.

1) 270 points of elves gives you 30 wounds with no save. Assuming all are in range (which is quite easy to do and can certainly string the majority in and then bring more in later on. All you need is to allocate the wounds to the 10-15 in range and keep the other 10-15 out to hit things).

1 cauldron gives you the equivalent of 40 wounds

2 cauldrons is 65

3 cauldrons is 100

4 cauldrons is 150

200 points of elves is a flat 22 wounds which of course can also increase the more cauldrons you can have but in my opinion the break point comes at the 3/4 cauldron mark where having more cauldrons adds significantly more wounds per point than more elves.

So you can see 1 cauldrons gives 33% increase, 2 cauldrons 116%, 3 is 233% and 4 is 400%. There is a huge increase in effectiveness the more you have. At 4 you can effectively shrug off armies that really would hard counter them like kunnin rukk etc.

2) The more cauldrons you have, the more they protect each other. 1 Cauldron is only y13 wounds with a 5+ armour and 5+ special save. Realistically that can be killed or neutered in a turn or 2. 4 Cauldrons near each other are extremely hard to shift, and remember as they get the weaker their range becomes worse and once its below 5 inches its not very useful to big squads of witches. Again using the previous formula:

1 cauldron has 17.3 wounds

2 cauldrons gives each one 28

3 cauldrons gives each one 43

4 cauldrons gives each one 65 

This is excluding their armour save which is 5+ which obviously gives them more wounds in reality vs most attacks.

3) Each cauldron can buff a unit of witches with reroll 1s to wound, +1 wound but its not guaranteed to work. The wound stacks so multiple stacks can let the witches get to 2+ reroll to wound which increases their damage a lot vs 4+ to wound. I find having 3 squads and 4 cauldrons means I can buff the unit which piles in twice twice hopefully so they will do a lot of work. 

4) 3/4 cauldrons means you can spread the units out more and keep coverage. If you need to split the army in half then you still get the coverage you need minimum (2 cauldrons imo).

5) I've found 90 25mm bases the maximum I like to work with in terms of time to play, amount you can fit into combat, around cauldrons etc. Of course you can add other things but I'm trying to keep my army pure daughters of khaine and find lots of allies lack the synergy. 

 

Of course this ignores adding more witches adds more damage (as cauldrons also add some damage) but i've found that lots of witches end up being out of range etc.

[Wraith01]

I'm buying the new Daughters of Khaine box, mostly for a Skirmish campaign, then I'll play a game or 2 adding them as allies to my Stormcast army to see how that works out. Should be fun. Model's look beautiful, will be a joy to paint.

[Siegfried VII]

3 hours ago, James Ramsay said:

There's a lot of reasons why multiple cauldron makes more sense than having more elves.

1) 270 points of elves gives you 30 wounds with no save. Assuming all are in range (which is quite easy to do and can certainly string the majority in and then bring more in later on. All you need is to allocate the wounds to the 10-15 in range and keep the other 10-15 out to hit things).

1 cauldron gives you the equivalent of 40 wounds

2 cauldrons is 65

3 cauldrons is 100

4 cauldrons is 150

Math is not my strong point but I do not see these numbers as true. Because if I understand correctly the second cauldron equals to 47 and not 65.

The way I see it your unit suffers 30 wounds, saves 10  and then saves about 7 with the second save.

[James Ramsay]

24 minutes ago, Siegfried VII said:

Math is not my strong point but I do not see these numbers as true. Because if I understand correctly the second cauldron equals to 47 and not 65.

The way I see it your unit suffers 30 wounds, saves 10  and then saves about 7 with the second save.

Yes so with 0 save, 30 wounds kills all the elves. with 1 cauldron, 10 would live, 20 die. 

If you have a 2nd cauldron, you roll again so out of 20, you save another 6.66. That means in total, 16.66 survive, 13.4 die thats a 55% save which if you extrapolate to 30 wounds is 65 wounds now.

If you had a 3rd cauldron in the example, 8.96 would die, and finally a 4th cauldron, only 6 would die. 30 wounds/6 is 1/5 so 80% chance of survival. If you extrapolate that to 30 wounds of elves, that means it takes 150 saves to wipe the unit out. Thats the equivalent of 1350 points of elves with 0 save. With 4 cauldrons and 90 elves, you are making your opponent cause 450 wounds to wipe them all out, thats over 4000 points of elves with 0 save. They become an incredibly resilient force with the cauldrons, not on the same level as lots with 2+ rerollable, but against all types of damage. 

[Sennyo]

sorry but i have to ask doesnt our caldron of blood now suffer from the new no stacking rule, as 2 caldrons would both be using the same ability.

[Lord Veshnakar]

36 minutes ago, Sennyo said:

sorry but i have to ask doesnt our caldron of blood now suffer from the new no stacking rule, as 2 caldrons would both be using the same ability.

I believe you may be correct here but the example is not exactly the same scenario as it's saying any DoK models, not DoK models within range of any cauldron of blood , so I am not sure to be honest.

 

[Thomas Lyons]

1 hour ago, Sennyo said:

sorry but i have to ask doesnt our caldron of blood now suffer from the new no stacking rule, as 2 caldrons would both be using the same ability.

No, @Lord Veshnakar began to seize upon the key point.  Whenever "any" shows up, just read it as "one or more".  As noted, it says "the Cauldron of Blood grants it and any ("one or more") Daughters of Khaine Models from your army protection as long as they are within range of the Bloodshield (i.e. this ability)."  If it had said,  "the Cauldron of Blood grants it and any ("one or more") Daughters of Khaine Models from your army protection as long as they are within range of any ("one or more") Bloodshield(s)," then it would not have stacked.  

Instead it uses the definite article "the" which is pointing that the checking is being done based on a specific CoB, namely this one model.  Accordingly, the check happens for each CoB (i.e. they stack). 

[James Ramsay]

I'm going to use my 4 cauldron list at blackout, a big UK event this weekend (using the new GHB2 rules). A lot of the big names are there and i've drawn Sedge in the first round (who famously won warlords with Kunnin Rukk last near) so definitely a tough start! I'm feeling quite confident with this list with the ghb2 changes however and looking to hopefully surprise people with its effectiveness. 

[Dead_Ghost]

I'm going to use my 4 cauldron list at blackout, a big UK event this weekend (using the new GHB2 rules). A lot of the big names are there and i've drawn Sedge in the first round (who famously won warlords with Kunnin Rukk last near) so definitely a tough start! I'm feeling quite confident with this list with the ghb2 changes however and looking to hopefully surprise people with its effectiveness. 

Good luck, definitely give us a batrep next week!

Sent from my G3221 using Tapatalk

[James Ramsay]

9 minutes ago, Dead_Ghost said:

Good luck, definitely give us a batrep next week!

Sent from my G3221 using Tapatalk
 

I will be! Hopefully some pictures too, that depends on time and so on would be ace to do a proper write up.

[zedatkinszed]

11 hours ago, Thomas Lyons said:

No, @Lord Veshnakar began to seize upon the key point.  Whenever "any" shows up, just read it as "one or more".  As noted, it says "the Cauldron of Blood grants it and any ("one or more") Daughters of Khaine Models from your army protection as long as they are within range of the Bloodshield (i.e. this ability)."  If it had said,  "the Cauldron of Blood grants it and any ("one or more") Daughters of Khaine Models from your army protection as long as they are within range of any ("one or more") Bloodshield(s)," then it would not have stacked.  

Instead it uses the definite article "the" which is pointing that the checking is being done based on a specific CoB, namely this one model.  Accordingly, the check happens for each CoB (i.e. they stack). 

Yes and there's also the rule in the core rules FAQ that states unequivocally that abilities and effects stack:

"Q: Are the effects of multiple duplicate spells and abilities stackable against the target?

A: Yes, unless specifically stated otherwise."

That's from page 6 of the rules errata.

Nothing says only one CoB can effect one unit ... at least not yet 

[James Ramsay]

This is my final(ish) list for blackout:

Cauldron brew General inspiring Phoenix gem

Cauldron brew

Cauldron brew

Cauldron brew

Hag deathsword

30 witch elves

30 witch elves

30 witch elves

5 doomfire warlocks

5 doomfire warlocks 

 

The only thing  I'm tempted to play with is giving the general +1 attack and -1 rend and a deathsword so I have some -2 rend in combat, double pile in with her is quite dangerous...however I do like inspiring for turn 1 and for the doomfires. I also like the gem to keep her alive! Leaning towards the safe play at the moment.