Grimrock

Archaon is a daemon hero with the command ability and he is always within 8" of himself, so he can just use the command ability on himself with no need for anyone else. It's pretty awesome and I think the best way to run him.

Definitely a possibility and I could totally see that being the reason, but that would also be a huge punch in the gut for players. Not only did we get a new book about so shortly after the first one was released, but now we're also supposed to pick up a Broken Realms book to actually give us the full rules? It's not impossible but that would be pretty underhanded even for GW.

I'll add that taking him in Reapers of Vengeance to give him the ability to attack twice is pretty great. I also recommend the chaos warshrine as the prayers can be pretty massive for Archaon and it can reroll off the skull altar for more consistency. Including a blob of 40 marauders works pretty well too since they're excellent targets for his command ability and they can benefit from any support you take for Archaon. I usually run something like this: Allegiance: Khorne- Slaughterhost: Reapers of VengeanceArchaon the Everchosen (800)Bloodsecrator (120)- Artefact: Skullshard MantleSlaughterpriest (100)- General- Command Trait: Mage Eater- Blood Blessing: Killing FrenzyBloodstoker (80)- Artefact: Talisman of Burning Blood 10 x Bloodreavers (70)- Meatripper Axes10 x Bloodreavers (70)- Meatripper Axes10 x Bloodreavers (70)- Meatripper Axes40 x Chaos Marauders (320)- Axes & Shields Chaos Warshrine (170)- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh Dark Feast (110)Hexgorger Skulls (40)Total: 1950 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 118

I think it's hard to see it as anything other than an intentional choice because of how consistently it has happened over the last few years. I think they're doing it this way because GW doesn't want to have to support the models in any way after their initial release. If they release something overpowered they may have to devote playtesting time or developer time to give it a nerf later on, or to adjust points costs at some point. Plus the obvious issues if they stop selling a model that has become seen as a critical piece of a faction strategy. They can get ahead of all of those issues by just intentionally handicapping the models from the start. Plus I don't think the models are having significant issues selling even without being useful in AoS (as evidenced by cursed city selling out almost instantly and the fact that they're still supporting Underworlds).

There are some really slick white schemes out there. I heard the idea came from some old lore that khorne daemons all came out of the warp white and only became red as they soaked themselves in blood. I've never tried it because I realllly don't like painting white, but it can look amazing if you're up for the challenge.

Well don't forget the bell from the great unclean one for the +3 speed, average move with a run is 10-11". That puts you in range to buff a unit pre-pile in without too much effort even on battle plans with a 24" no mans land, and if you really need to there's always the emergency command point for a 6" run. If you're really focusing on alpha strike you can also bring along cogs and cast with the GUO from outside dispel range on turn 1, and you can try spinning the wheel and getting another 2". Plus if you bring 1-2 drops you've got the option to just go second and then it gets a lot easier. Fair point. I mean the witherstave is still solid enough to consider, you just trade off doing mortal wounds for taking less damage. I'll take a look and see if there's anything else I'd prefer.

I don't know guys, those points seem pretty reasonable to me for what they do. The piper has become a lynchpin model like a bloodsecrator with a little less resilience and a lot more flexibility. The scrivener is a little more focused sure but his buffs can still be pretty great and the fact that he keys off the plaguebearer keyword still gives him some good choices. I don't think either of them are going to rocket nurgle up to the top tables or anything, but they do have some serious potential. I've been thinking about plague drones and now you can easily stack +4 attacks on a unit if you bring a great unclean one along. Think about that, 16 attacks per model for plague drones. Or you could go +3 attacks (for a total of 13 each) and mortals on a 6 to hit, or +3 and an extra rend on all attacks. Taking a unit of 6 and launching it up the board turn one can be a legitimately terrifying alpha strike now. Then on the defence you could switch them up to a 4+ save, 4+ disgustingly resilient (with droning guard), and no pile-ins for the enemy. I know that the new warscrolls are a touch squishy, but they shouldn't die turn one and remember they can still be summoned in again later and be fully effective on the turn they arrive. A clutch bilepiper summon could easily turn the tide on a late game combat and is way more reliable than trying to fish for a 9" charge off some plaguebearers. This is my idea for a list to try things out using a tallyband: Great Unclean One - One Last Gift - Witherstave - Bile Blade/Bell Sloppity Spoilpox -Mucktalon 30 Plaguebearers 3 units of 10 Plaguebearers 6 Plague Drones 2 units of 1 Beast of Nurgle I'm not totally sold on the two units of beasts or the extra unit of 10 plaguebearers. You could drop the beasts to get up to 7 units for the extra contagion point, or maybe drop the beasts for another unit of 3 drones and a command point/endless spell. I was also thinking about trying to fit cogs in there but I don't know if it's necessary.

I think the biggest concern I have with a points decrease is how expensive the army is going to become. It's already pretty bad with the new GW pricing and the heavy reliance on summoning, but if we get a 20% points reduction that means the army is going to get even worse. Personally I'd much prefer them update the army to be worth the points cost, but I guess I know that isn't how GW operates.

Marauders are great, and particularly great with Archaon in a host of the everchosen, but I think a chaos sorcerer is pretty much mandatory with Archaon so it's worth trying to fit one in. Reroll saves on the big guy is massive to help keep him alive and rerolls to hit/wound are extremely important to make sure your 800 point investment doesn't randomly roll a bunch of 1s at the critical moment. Maybe 20 marauders, one unit of iron golems, and a sorcerer?

Yeah, I mean proper separate kits in the style of the new models but with all the weapon options and the musicians/standard bearers. The start collecting box is great but doesn't have everything you need. I'd love to see some new marauders as well, but I don't want to get my hopes up haha. If it's just going to be a broken realms release I don't think we'll get a full range refresh, but maybe it'll be a whole new book like slaanesh got. One can dream I guess.

I wonder if the new Be'Lakor model will be accompanied by a new wave of minis? Maybe we'll finally get a proper resculpt of the chaos warriors and knights.

From my experience you can do this but the S2D units are significantly lacking in offensive output. You trade the ability to do more damage up front for higher grade depravity generation. My instinct from the few games I played is that it'll come out about the same in the end, but it's hard to be sure at this point. It would take a lot more play testing to really get a clear picture.

I think the biggest problem with this is going to be consistency. First you have to roll a 4+ to run to get in range and then you need to roll a 3+ to trigger the ability. You could blow a command point to fix the run roll if it goes bad, but I've failed more than enough prayer rolls on the warshrine, especially on crucial turns, to know that you can't trust a 3+. Plus you have to commit the Shardspeaker to being more than half way across the board and within 9" of a unit that's worth alpha striking (usually meaning it's pretty dangerous). If it fails your squishy wizard is mega dead, and even if it succeeds you're probably going to lose them to the rest of the army. One shot at a 3+ to only cause +1 to wound just doesn't seem worth 150 points to me. I'm sure there are ways to make them work but I highly doubt the alpha strike is going to come up more than 1 in 20 games.

Ok, third game down and probably the last until I actually have the book. I tried this out for pretenders: Keeper - Strength of Godhood, Strongest Alone - Silverslash - Progeny of Damnation Infernal Enrapturess Bladebringer on Exalted Chariot - Born of Damnation 3x11 Blissbarbs 10 Myrmidesh 2x5 Chaos Knights 2x Iron Golems Slaanesh has been doing decently for me so I decided to ramp up the difficulty and try fighting Tzeentch. The list was a changehost with a Lord of Change, Blue Scribes, Fateskimmer, 20 pink horrors, 6 flamers, 3 flamers, 1 exalted flamer, 3 screamers, 10 brimstone horrors. Not generally viewed as a particularly competitive list, but it is flexible. The scenario was shifting objectives. Some notes from the game: 1. The iron golems were great. They were absurdly tanky for their points and generated a decent amount of depravity while also being total throw away units to hold objectives. I think they're one of the best ally choices we have based on what our book is lacking 2. Chaos knights were... ok. Tanky and fast enough, but no real damage to speak of. Like @Enoby said, just not quite good enough 3. Myrmidesh were tanky and did good damage, but oddly speed 6 felt too slow for the army. I had to deploy a little further back to avoid an alpha strike from the flamers, but that meant the myrmidesh spent two turns working their way to an objective. Tzeentch was able to just ignore them or feed them chaff until turn 3 3. Tzeentch prioritized the Blissbarbs early to cut off depravity. The Blissbarbs were too squishy to stand up to even mediocre shooting and, combined with their bravery of 6, were pretty much all gone at the end of round 1. They're great against melee armies, but against an opponent with ranged attacks that knows their value don't expect the Blissbarbs to last long 4. The list was about as resilient as I could make it, but in the end it wasn't good enough. Tzeentch ranged attacks and magic were used to focus down targets and actively avoid generating unnecessary depravity. This game I only got to summon 30 daemonettes turn 3 and 10 more on turn 4. 5. Slaanesh had absolutely no answer to the 20 teleporting pink horrors. They followed the shifting objective, deleted a unit a turn, and gained control of the objective by auto charging using destiny dice. There was one chance to do some damage with the 30 summoned daemonettes, but they failed their re-rollable charge the turn they came in and that was about it 6. Honestly the game only lasted until round 4 because there was no double turn. If at any point tzeentch had gotten a double turn it would have been over. This is particularly true at the beginning of round 2. If there was a double turn there then there would have been too many dead slaanesh units to generate more than a handful of depravity points from then on. What I'm really struggling with is there are no battalions to get Slaanesh down to 1-2 drops outside of the pleasurebound warband from S2D. This means that there's a good chance we'll always be forced to go first against a competitive list, and then a round 2 double turn pretty much ends the game. Too much dies over a double and after that there just isn't enough left to generate the depravity needed to use summoning effectively. This is the biggest flaw of the book I've found so far, and the only possible solution I can think of is finding ways to hurt your own units and generate a large amount of depravity on turn one. The Fomoroid Crusher or Plague Censer Bearers mentioned by others are good ways to do this, but honestly.... I just don't really like the idea. I'm already not particularly happy that I'm feeling compelled to reach for S2D units to shore up weaknesses present in a brand new book, but having to go completely outside of the Slaanesh keyword and grab allies feels even worse. Not much more I can say, but I'm hopeful someone else will find some answers I'm missing.

Yeah they took the slightly overkill approach of not just removing one component of the combo, but nuking the whole thing from orbit. They nerfed the command ability, the bloodstoker, the ability on the bloodletters, the prayers, and the daemon battalion. Most comprehensive dismantle of a common tactic/army design I think I've ever seen actually.

Are you giving the keeper an artifact and command trait for those calculations? There's no way I'd be paying points for a naked keeper, so there's not much use in considering one without at least the permanent +1 to hit from the fane. I know Glutos can grab it once on the first turn, but after that he'll likely be too far away to get the buff. Regardless, like @Rivener said they're both going to be primarily support pieces. I like the keeper's kit for that more though, the locus makes them incredibly difficult to handle and the command ability to attack twice can be amazingly powerful on the right unit. Glutos is tanky, but he offers very little meaningful support for the rest of the army despite his wall of text. Also the biggest issue I've run into so far is a lack of significant damange, not resilience. I'm not saying he's awful or anything, but being tanky and killing a unit of liberators every turn just doesn't seem like enough for 400 points. Maybe I jut need to give him a shot and see how it goes.

My pleasure, it helps me when I organize my thoughts like this as well. I'm not really sure on the screening honestly. The army is already lacking in damage so dropping a unit of Slickblades completely might hurt it too much. The best I could come up with would be downgrading both units of Slickblades to chaos knights and making use of the 80 points that frees up for a unit of Iron Golems. One unit might not be enough of a screen, but it would help a little at least. I did have a lot of success with my last game running a big block of 15 chaos warriors as a screen but that requires a more significant list rewrite. Fiends and Glutos would be an absolute terror for a melee army to deal with to be sure. My main problems are it's 760 points and, like you said, a shooting army would pick the fiends apart too quickly. I'm also having trouble envisioning how to use Glutos. He's super tanky and his kit gets him into combat really quickly, but once he gets there he just doesn't do enough damage to justify his points. Not enough meaningful support either.

Ah shoot, I had a seeker cavalcade in a different version of the list but dropped it for more blissbarbs. Of course I forgot to remove the second artefact while I was at it. Well, the points still stand I guess. I probably would have dropped the cameo off the keeper and just fed wounds into the fane instead. Good catch!

Ok, second game down. I tried this list out with godseekers: Keeper - retreat/charge trait - Cameo of the Dark Prince (illegal! forgot to remove the second artifact when I tweaked the list) Contorted Epitome - Enrapturing Circlet (no retreats for enemies in 3") The Masque 3x Blissbarbs 30 daemonettes 2x Slickblades Chronomatic Cogs I was up against a blightking heavy nurgle army. 3 units of 5 kings, 1 unit of 20, the Glottkin, Gutrot Spume, Lord of Blights, Harbinger, all in a Blight Cyst. Also an Aethervoid Pendulum and extra command point. Some notes: 1. Despite the smaller unit count of the opponent and generally higher resilience the depravity flowed pretty well. Turn 3 I summoned 30 more daemonettes and I had 18 more points going into turn 4. This was assisted greatly by having the keeper as my general with the retreat and charge trait giving me multiple d3+1 points. 2. The new locus combined with the enrapturing circlet (no retreating) was extremely nasty. On turn 2 the big unit of blight kings were spread out in a line in the middle after killing off 2 units of blissbarbs set up as a screen. I managed to tag the unit with the keeper on one side and the epitome in the middle. The locus went off locking them in place and I killed a few with the keeper. Nurgle had to kill off the middle kings and intentionally lose half the unit in the battle shock phase in order to get 3" away from the epitome and prevent the whole unit from being frozen in place by the circlet on their turn. If they had lost one less king the unit would have been completely useless the next turn. 3. A keeper getting permanent +1 to hit off of the fane is fantastic. Seems obvious but it just felt way better all game. Also the locus makes them so annoying to deal with. I think they're the best general for godseekers. 4. Bravery 6 on the slickblades suuuucks. They do a solid damage, but multiple times I lost models I couldn't afford to lose due to a battle shock test. I honestly think chaos knights might be a better pick overall, even if it's just for the 2 extra bravery. 5. Blissbarbs were great again. Concentrating fire did a good chunk of damage and it's just so refreshing to be able to do something in the shooting phase. 6. Despite all the positive points, slaanesh felt behind pretty much all game. There were a couple moments where there was a chance, like summoning 30 daemonettes to charge and steal a back line objective, but even with the summoning they were just ground under by the nurgle army. Never enough models. Had Nurgle gotten even one double turn it would have been totally over. 7. We're really lacking a decent screening unit. I had to use 2 units of blissbarbs, but at 160 points they're too valuable to use like that. I wonder if allying in some Iron Golems from S2D might be a good idea, but the list is super tight for points. 8. I'm finding I generally use most of my command points to auto pass bravery to ensure I get the depravity out of units 9. Again, only being able to summon once per turn is really tough. If I could have summoned two units on turn 4 I might have been able to turn the game around, but with only a single unit I just couldn't get enough done. For an army that seems to be built around summoning it's a really frustrating restriction.

I tried out my list above in a practice game against an MSU khorne army. It was an interesting experience and there were some important points. 1. Depravity worked far better than I expected it to. I generated about 36 throughout the game netting me 2 keepers and one unit of 30 daemonettes 2. Summoning once per turn really hurts and forced me to make some tough decisions 3. Blissbarbs were great with depravity as people have said, but also a potent threat if they concentrated fire and very flexible with running and shooting. Died like flies but I think they might be my MVPs 4. The slaves to darkness were actually pretty good in the list. They're very tanky and generated a huge amount of depravity. The StD battalion with long pile in also helped push some damage around. The army was seriously lacking in damage overall though 5. Charging with a Keeper and then using the locus was hilariously effective 6. Keepers are still incredibly swingy and losing the ability to self buff makes it much worse. If you're going to run one of these you need to buff it with the fane as an absolute minimum 7. The change to godseeker depravity generation is really tricky. I only got points on one turn because my general died in the next round. +1 to charge off the summon was still clutch though I'm going to try another list out and swap out for more of the new models. Maybe try out the slickblades and more archers.

This is my first real crack at a list. Unfortunately not much hedonite stuff but it might do ok. Chaos Lord Chaos Sorcerer Lord Contorted Epitome 40 Chaos Marauders 2x5 Chaos Knights 15 Chaos Warriors 2x11 Blissbarb Archers Chaos Warshrine Pleasurebound Warband I'd play it as godseekers and make the contorted epitome the general. The list isn't going to kill much, really the only thing that can do meaningful damage is the marauders, but it is pretty good at gumming up lines with the extra pile in on the pleasurebound warband and milking depravity for as long as possible due to the overall durability. Might just be enough to grind a mediocre opponent down and slowly get the upper hand off of summoning. It is a little funny that the absolute worst of the god marked battalions from slaves is the best thing I can think of for Slaanesh.

I've been thinking about this too and trying to math it out. Initially it seems like the new mortals are pretty comparable to their equivalent slaves units when you adjust for points. Slaves are cheaper but after you adjust for points they're just a touch worse overall, so you have the choice of the bigger investment up front on the new stuff or putting more bodies on the table with slaves. The one exception I've found is of course marauders. Even without euphoric killers they're still much better than daemonettes and they have access to way better buffs with the chaos sorcerer lord. Oddly enough I think that slaves units will become much more prevalent in hedonites now then they were before, which is unfortunate if you think about it.

Well I'm not sure where this book will fall, but I think the problem that upsets people is consistency. If people believed GW was going to turn over a new leaf and kick power creep to the curb then I'm sure pretty much everyone would be ecstatic. The problem is there's always the next broken army book one or two releases later. Usually when a nice, balanced, book comes out it just means people are going to be stuck with an uphill battle for the next few years.

Yeah that warscroll looks pretty much exactly what I always wanted for chaos warriors or blood warriors. There is an unfortunate lack of personality, but they're solid regardless. Definitely too expensive points wise so the buffs in the army will be needed to unlock their full potential. The only thing I'm a little unhappy about is the real life monetary cost is a little high for what amounts to basic battle line troops. They're pretty comparable to other models like blood warriors for size and complexity, but they're almost twice the price. I know new and shiny and all that, but at their price I just don't think I can justify the hobby budget to buy enough to make them work on the table.

Yeah honestly this release reminds me a lot of the last khorne book. Everything seemed a touch disappointing initially, but after a little while I eventually decided it had the best internal balance of any book I've ever played with a ton of fun and interesting builds. It was still weak overall, but there was a lot of fun to be had. Then gw did a couple small buffs here and there to get units into a better place and threw a huge buff to bloodthirsters so there was at least one competitive build in the book. No idea where this book will land but I'm happy to give it a shot and try some things out. Might be pleasently surprised.