swarmofseals

@dnusha it tops out at a lot of mortals although I suspect it'll be pretty difficult to pull off in practice. Certainly a fun gimmick though! It seems like you're suggesting you can fish for a 10+ for Foot of Gork, but spellcasting doesn't work that way. You have to declare the spell before you roll. That said, the procedure for casting a spell is "declare the spell and roll," and TbtW has you roll the mortals before you cast a spell so strictly RAW you can roll before selecting which spell to cast, so you could wait for foot until you roll a 3 on TbtW.

Great post. Battle tactics are an incredibly important part of the game, and failing one or two can easily be the difference between victory and defeat. In general terms you should pick the tactic that you can guarantee or near guarantee yourself to accomplish that is also the hardest to accomplish later in the game. For example, lets say your opponent has a weakened monster and a fragile battleline unit and you are confident you can near guarantee killing either one. Broken Ranks or Bring it Down are both good choices here, but you should consider which you are more likely to get another shot at later. If your opponent only has the one monster but several battleline units you should do Bring it Down. If they have multiple monsters but this is their last surviving battleline then you should do Broken Ranks. On the other side of the coin, you should also be thinking about your opponents' battle tactics over the course of the game. Think about the battleplan, their list and your list and try to figure out which tactics they are likely to be able to guarantee, which are stretches and which are near impossible. If you have an opportunity to sacrifice some resources in order to deny your opponent an easy battle tactic you should seriously consider doing it. Do you have a monster or last battleline unit that is hanging on by a thread? Unless you can realistically heal the unit you might consider suicide charging it during your turn just to get rid of the unit and deny your opponent the opportunity to use Bring it Down or Broken Ranks. When you have the opportunity to delete an objective going second in the third battle round, consider not just which objective is most strongly held by your opponent but also think about which objectives your opponent might need access to to complete battle tactics. You won't always want to delete an objective that you hold lightly just to deny your opponent their Conquer, but once in a while it could be the correct play. A final consideration that will rarely be the best play but sometimes can be useful is the bluff tactic. If you think you are unlikely to be able to complete a tactic, you might consider trying to bait your opponent by calling a tactic to kill a specific enemy unit in order to induce them to use Finest Hour or other resources. For example, you might shoot that unit with a small missile attack to bait out All Out Defense and then direct the rest of your fire at your real target. A bluff tactic will probably only be the right play very rarely, but it's a good trick to have in your pocket.

Just a small thing to consider: Rippa's Snarlfangs. There is a lot of shooting in the meta, and this is the cheapest unit that you can use to draw unleash hell. If their shooting is away from where you are charging you can also use the 6" pile in to tag a shooting unit without charging and maybe waste a turn of their shots. (crossposted in Bonesplitterz thread as it's also relevant there)

Just a small thing to consider: Rippa's Snarlfangs. There is a lot of shooting in the meta, and this is the cheapest unit that you can use to draw unleash hell. If their shooting is away from where you are charging you can also use the 6" pile in to tag a shooting unit without charging and maybe waste a turn of their shots.

Yeah, I think LRL is there because of Settler's Gain.

I don't think Cities can take Lumineth as allies. You can use 1 in 4 Lumineth units in Settler's Gain but that's it. EDIT: Krondys is 600, so he is a huge chunk of the list

@TheGrimKnight Another thing you can consider for Bretonnia is using them as Soulblight Gravelords. A lot of the units match up pretty well with equivalents in SBGL, you just run into trouble with the big monsters which will probably require conversions. Just to give a second opinion though I don't quite agree with @readercolin re: Drakespawn Knights. He's superficially correct -- they don't do much damage and their speed isn't quite what you'd hope. But I think he is overstating their uselessness by quite a margin. I've had them used against me pretty effectively. In small units they are an excellent screen. They are cheap, will actually hold against anything but a pretty big hammer, and are fast enough to get out of the way of your own hammer units if you need to get through your own screen. 5 cav bases also provide the most area coverage for a screen. For objective play you want them in a unit of 10 more likely. You will probably have 2-3 that won't get to fight, but you aren't counting on them for offense anyway. As far as speed goes, 10" is a huge difference when compared to a 4-6" move like you get from infantry. In most battleplans you can easily get all 10 models onto a center line objective on turn 1 without running. With an average run roll you can get them passed the midline, and with a lucky run roll or At the Double you can actually block most if not all of the objective. This brings me to what I think is probably the best home for Drakespawn Knights: Tempest Eye. In Tempest Eye the extra +3" of move means that you can reliably block objectives on turn 1 with these guys and they get a 2+ save on the first turn which will really delay your opponent in shifting them. On top of that, they actually become pretty punchy with Aura of Glory. Drakespawn Knights have a pretty pathetic .0664 WOR (weighted offense rating, a measure of offensive efficiency that can compare damage across rend types) when charging. Add in Aura of Glory and it goes up to a very respectable .1374. Aura of Glory has been very hit or miss though as the only reliable caster in Tempest Eye is the Sorceress, who isn't fast enough to keep up. Enter Krondys, who not only can cast Aura of Glory reliably but is a beast in combat himself and has a huge base to project that aura. I think a Drakespawn Krondys list in Tempest Eye could have some decent legs, at the very least as a solid tier 2 list.

I have to admit I missed staredown spam in my initial thoughts about this book. A naked wurrgog will do nearly 11 mortals on average before popping, which is pretty good value for the points. One thing I'm wondering is if Bonegrinz lists might want to take two big blocks of arrowboys instead of one big block and a bunch of min size. Only one unit can use AAO to boost the hit to 4+, but I think a lot of people have just forgotten that Damned terrain is a thing. Only one model needs to be within 1" to use it, and the +1 to hit lasts until your next hero phase, meaning it will also benefit your Unleash Hell. Most tables will have at least one piece of Damned terrain and two will be pretty common. It's rare to see other armies fish for it, too. Most people are angling for Arcane or Mystical, so even if you don't get to pick table side there's a decent chance your opponent will just give you access to Damned. While most people seem to be talking about super spammy MSU Bonegrinz, I think a more balanced approach could be viable with a 1-2 big blocks of arrowboys, a front line of Big Stabbas and 1-2 units of maniaks to harass the backline. Fill the rest out with MSU arrows. Big Stabbas are damage efficient without Icebone, and they aren't too bad on defensive efficiency either. @Enwolved where is that 8" + d6 pregame move coming from? Base is 5, goes up to 8 with Great Hunter but where are you getting the d6? EDIT: ohh you meant just the idols, alpha beast pack

Glad to see that some people are cluing in to this XD

For those with CP troubles the Fungoid Cave Shaman is a cheap CP battery as an ally, and I think the strategist command trait for an extra CP on a 5+ is actually worth considering.

All of this is correct, it's just that you are giving up 3 solid attacks for an extra half a mortal on average. You're more likely to get a second charge of you wipe the first unit, and the extra choppa attacks are more likely to get that done. If it was a 4+ trigger with hackas giving +2 I'd be more sympathetic.

@Andrew G OK, that's rather clever! And I guess once they kill one you're no longer over 5 so you don't need to worry about coherency loss. So I'll gladly concede my 6 gruntas bad! argument, but maintain my choppas are betta argument, which I think is only reinforced by your method.

It's gotta be gore-hackas though right? Four across in the front and two in the back, so for the two models in the back only the riders can attack yes? If that's correct then you're looking at: 3.33 MW 8.44 r1 success 7.11 r0 success vs. 2 MW 5.78 r1 success 5.33 r0 success So 66% more mortals, 46% more r1, and 33% more r0 for double the points investment. Doesn't seem great to me, although maybe against opponents with really hard screens it would be better?

I think choppas are almost strictly better. Weighted offense rating (double charging/charging/not charging) Choppas: .0868/.1156/.1444 Hackas: .075/.111/.147 Choppas +1damage: .1736/.2024/.2312 Hackas +1damage: .1499/.1859/.2219 Basically the only situation where hackas are better is when you don't have the warchanter buff and are double charging, and even than the difference is tiny. EDIT: for 6 man squads you can make an argument for hackas based on the range, but I think 6 man grunta squads are a mistake anyway.

Just got my first game in with my new Bloodtoofs list against IDK. He deployed pretty far back so a huge alpha strike was not in the cards. I just sent in 1 unit of 3 gore gruntas and they successfully blew up his screen of 10 thralls and then charged in at end of combat and basically locked 80% of his army in combat on turn 1. They died spectacularly, of course, but VERY worth it.

Based on this image my best guess for the base size on Krondys and Karazai is the 160mm dinner plate. The inside area of that terrain feature (the grey part, not including the statues) is about 11".

I think probably not worth it in IJ but I do like it in Bonesplitterz. Being able to Inspiring Presence multiple targets is really helpful in mitigating bravery problems. Probably because of the rally ability. A block of 30 rallying on 4+ every turn would be a pretty big NPE I think. Another consideration is the SC box coming with 15, making units of 10 awkward. I think GW is trying to make sure any box can be legally used in its entirety without any other purchases. This is a good catch and makes taking a maw krusha without making it the general more viable. Touched by the Waaagh! is great compared to the CA options for a megaboss, but making your general a weirdnob is kinda dicey given how much you need those CP to keep rolling in. Definitely torn on this one.

If you are talking about a head to head matchup it's hard to predict. I think stormdrake spam will be pretty annoying for Ironjawz mostly because they will be very good at picking off warchanters. That said I think people are overestimating stormdrakes a bit. Their damage per point isn't that great. They are definitely good and will probably see a lot of play, but people are treating them like the second coming and I don't quite buy that. 2 Stormdrake Guard have a weighted offensive efficiency of .0663 in melee and .0278 at range and a weighted defensive efficiency of .1421. 3 Orruk Gore-Gruntas with Brute Choppas buffed by a warchanter have a weighted offensive efficiency of .1657 when not charging, .1945 when charging and a weighted defensive efficiency of .1625. The initial charge from buffed gore-gruntas will hit MUCH harder per point than stormdrakes. One other thing that I don't see many people consider with the stormdrakes is that they are 9 wound monsters. Taking a bunch of them is basically handing your opponent quite a few VP. I could be wrong though.

Vs Lumineth specifically? I think it's probably worse than with Radukar and 10 Dire Wolves but 30 Blood Knights is 30 Blood Knights. If just talking about a general all purpose list I also prefer the Radukar version but VLoZD version is certainly fine. I'd also be tempted to try 5x5 Blood Knights and swap the VLoZD for Vhordrai, plus either 20 zombies and 3 Fell Bats or 2x3 Fell Bats. I'd also generally go 2x Battle Regiment over 2x Battle Regiment and hunters. I don't think immunity to rampage on 3 units is worth +2 drops. YMMV though.

Even if it doesn't I probably wouldn't deep strike him anyway. 32" threat range on his ranged attack and 28" of move with the command ability is plenty to get him where he needs to be. Plus you want him on the table in the hero phase.

also @bonzai although not quoting you This is a bit of speculation on my part, albeit backed up by data. I think that GW is trying to be very careful with shooting in 3.0 given how shooting heavy the meta was in late 2.0 and the added power of Unleash Hell. If you look at the 3.0 points costs vs. the 2.0 points costs, shooting units went up more on average than melee units did. I calculate the mathhammer for a lot of units, and "par" for a shooting unit in 2.0 was around WOR (same stat as what I used to call WDR) of .07-.08 whereas now par is around .05 for shooting units. These numbers are consistent across the new tomes as well. Artillery units and hybrid melee units are lower of course. There's also been some movement away from buffs that work on both melee and ranged. A good example of this is the most recent DoK tome, which made most of the buffs melee only. Based on all of this I think GW probably wants shooting to be part of the competitive meta, but not dominant and certainly not to the exclusion of other playstyles. A lot of you are discussing the removal of buffs to scale arrowboys and the gating of the third ranged attack behind a subfaction. I haven't seen much discussion (may have missed it) of the fact that arrowboys have +1 melee attack now. GW has shifted them from basically a pure ranged unit to a hybrid unit. Let's compare 10 Icebone arrowboys to 10 Icebone orruks with chompas, using my WOR (weighted offensive rating) and WDR (weighted defensive rating) formulas. Both are measures of efficiency. Arrowboys (WOR/WDR): .0653/.1738 Orruks (WOR/WOR CHARGING/WDR): .0727/.0871/.1855 Arrowboys are not that much less efficient than orruks with chompas on both offense and defense. In exchange, they get a bit of ranged attack (.023 WOR vs non monster, .0306 vs monster). It's also worth noting that arrowboys have VERY high defensive efficiency for a ranged unit. Most ranged units have a WDR of .1 or less. Is this a good thing? I have no opinion on that yet. But the idea that arrowboys are straight nerfed and unusable isn't really accurate. @bonzai, I definitely respect your main point. I personally dislike it when a single subfaction defines the optimal playstyle for its faction. Whether the faction rules are bad because they've pushed the faction towards one particular playstyle is a valid argument and I certainly won't argue the point. I had thought you were arguing that the faction is mediocre from a power perspective, which I disagree strongly with. I did notice that you said that boars are a clear winner, but it seemed that you were also suggesting that although the boars are better that they still aren't very good. And again that's where I disagree -- I'm pretty confident that they are a top tier warscroll. It's very possible that I'm wrong but generally until there is a large body of gameplay data available I tend to favor the math.

Gav bombs were generally all-in on the strategy, dedicating a huge part of the army to making it work, and against opponents who could screen well it was a huge liability. Having 1-3 units that you really want to deepstrike is not nearly such a liability. Ask any DoK player how useful it is to have even one unit of Khainite Shadowstalkers or Khinerai. Just the threat is very impactful, and even one unit of Annihilators will really strain your opponent's deployment. From my point of view this is synergistic with the new hotness (Fulminators, Stormdrake Guard). These units are also going to be more effective if you can clear screens or force the opponent to leave gaps in their screens. As the opponent moves up the board it will be more and more difficult for them to screen everywhere. If you don't have anything to deepstrike your opponent can concentrate screens more effectively. Few armies have enough chaff to screen in 360 degrees. Tooth and Nail is definitely a thing, but it's just one battleplan. Not every tournament will use it, and even those that do it's hardly crippling to have a few hundred points tied up in stuff that is worse but not completely terrible if you can't deepstrike.

Some very nice things in the Stormcast tome. Fulminators got a lot better, and Stormdrake Guard are also worth considering. Krondys is the real deal and especially spicy in Living City.

Yes

Ahh OK I see, thanks for the clarification! One of the things that helped me get over the loss of hero phase combat and mad as hell is realizing how much easier it is for IJ to close now. Before we were banking on Hand of Gork + Mighty Destroyers to present a turn 1 threat most of the time, and puking on our own units to get them up the board. Now you can close with up to 4 units on turn 1 without having to resolve a spell or reliably move up a big chunk of your slower forces an extra 4" a turn. Hero phase fighting would be so good, but if we had to lose it in order to get Megabosses their command fork then I can live with that.