MotherGoose

Sounds like someone that will blame everything on bad luck too when I'm sure a lot of it could have been a learning experience to better position/screen, learn the opponents rules and scrolls, save commands for a 6 to run if it means getting an objective (which could change the game sometimes) etc. I'd imagine he will continue this trend until he gives up the hobby. Hope he's not too bad at your tournie.

Yep but as the boss can still only issue 1 per phase you'd have to issue it with another hero first on the hobgrots (or if they have a champion they can issue it to themselves - not sure if they do or not), and then issue with the killaboss on the boltboyz.

The knife looks brilliant here... and that's not even really taking into account just how good it could be vs models with ethereal or 2+ saves etc. Nighthaunt are one of my armies and lady O has the 2+ mortals ability at range and it's always been good, I get that the Keepers is close range but still potential 6 mortals on top of everything is spicy.

Yea for some reason that didn't really cross my mind, it's not guaranteed d3 mortals as you say. Yeah i was initially using the thirster comparison because (especially the insensate rage) are 330 points of *pure* melee, should be one of the hardest hitting things in the game imo, and the Keeper, whilst worse on average, comes close in combat - with way more versatility and abilities and being a 2x caster they seem great. Then I went down the rabbit hole of mathhammer

Imo Dark Temptations should be included as its on the warscroll and you'll do it every time you're in combat, it's more akin to including the unfettered fury's mortals on a 4+ as you'll always be doing that too, whereas including the Temptations dice is more akin to including blood tithe or another unit.

Yea I said a while back I was including the battle trait of 6s doing mortals in addition, without it it drops to about 6 damage - again not bad considering the greater demon of combat is only 9 vs average save. Dark Temptations you'll always do so 2 extra mortals brings him only 1 damage behind a thirster which, imo, is impressive (or shows thirsters aren't quite good enough in combat?). Then tie in the 2x caster, 5+ ward, run and charge etc. I think they're great for their points.

Yea Dark Temptations should be including imo as you're never not going to do it.

The app does calculate standard deviation and stuff too so will change it when it's calculating 10s of thousands of results, which is probably why I ended up with 9 and you ended up with 10 vs 4+ save. But yeah I'm getting 7.5 from Keeper with 4 attacks 3s 3s r1 d2 and 2 attacks 3s 3s r2 d5 6s to hit doing mortals in addition and 6s to wound doing damage as mortals.

Unique now

I had a jugg lord tempered weapon and the item that gives +1 rend and mortals on 6s, had the prayer for -1 rend and he was my MVP. Nigh on unkillable with 2+ and 5++ vs spells, and shreds now he has 6 attacks (he was also rend 4 most of the time and I rolled a lot of 6s).

Yep same here with the thirster, I actually much prefer the whip variants now due to consistency... it is fun when the explosions happen but its way WAY more common for them to do nothing...

I think a 5++ is just so damn good that it's hard to go for something else especially when you can stomp+temptate and attack you're probably killing most things anyway, so survivability is way more appealing, but as you say sort of pointless when your whole army gets it anyway...

Thirster is damage d3+3 not 5, which maybe is where the discrepancy is. Edit - just seen I've still got 5+ ward on the target lol! Without that I'm getting 9 damage vs 4+ save for thirster and 7.5 for a keeper with 6s doing mortals and it's regular attacks... so yea slightly different but you'd expect a thirster to hit WAY harder, at only 70 points less and being pure melee that's quite surprising. I guess averages can't account for a bubble of mortal wounds exploding around the target, but still...

You pick a model but then the unit suffers the wounds, its pretty decent but I'd imagine 5+ ward will be more important most times.

How did you get such high numbers for the insensate rage? Haven't checked the others but I'm returning 5.7 average damage vs 4+ save and much lower on all the others too than you got there. 6.9 including the mortal wound chance. I'm also getting different Keeper ones... 5.04 vs 4+ save not including the mortals from the knife which average is 3.5 and then d3 temptation average is 2 so 10.54 including them + mortals on 6s. Admittedly I'm just putting it all in statshammer and letting the programme do the maths.

I'm talking 'on average' which obviously can swing either way, but last time I checked they are better on average than the insensate rage thirster in combat. If that's still the case, I'd happily pay 70 points extra for being a 2x caster and 5+ ward. Edit - no longer the case, the thirster does around 2 extra damage on average to 4+ save, however once slaanesh have the depravity for 6s doing mortals in addition I believe it is better still. Either way, I think they're great.

They're only 70 more than a thirster and are better in combat on average, 2x caster and much harder to kill, I think they're alright ATM.

I'd expect a huge cut to the traits and artefacts, I'm going to guess a choice of 3 per subfaction with all of them being fairly good rather than 80% being rubbish. A single special battle trait for each sub faction, keeping the 'battleline if' too. Increase to rend on certain models and some little warcsroll buffs/changes like the hunger becoming the same as Cado's. Change to our healing and a hero will no doubt get the generic 'rally on 4s' like most seem to get now. I also expect heroes to get access to 5+ wards, with all death units having 6+ with no need to be within an aura. (Maybe if they're in the aura they get +1?!) In general it'll be more streamlined and some little buffs and changes. They've been doing really well with all the 3.0 tomes. As for hopes rather than expectations, make mannfred a brilliant caster again. That was always his thing. Arkhan is no longer in the army so there's space for it without being too similar too. Give blood knights 2 inch range and maybe rend 2 on the charge, rend 1 all other times? Make vampires better in combat and an extra wound or two (sort of expecting this tbh).

There was a time when all you'd get is a tome for the update, the pity hero chucked in is just a cool addition alongside the tome. Whilst I agree we don't 'need' her, it's cooler than just getting the book alone. As others have said already we don't really 'need' anything. Sure new GG would be brilliant, a mounted vampire would be nice, but our book is over 2 years old and still holds up well - I mainly just want an update to rules and scrolls to make them 3.0 worthy, like Khorne have just got - I don't really need to get the new hero, I just want the new rules. Having another model to potentially buy and paint is cool but I'm not too fussed. As for the vyrkos model itself, I absolutely love it. I have a lot of vampires currently so won't rush to pick her up but I'll definitely get her at some point. Similarly for the new khorne priest woman.

Just to add to this great write up: Bloodcrushers can also be triggered by the bloodmasters ability to attack immediately after him (unless they faqd it or it changes in the new book?). They also now have a 5+ ward vs all ranged and magic so long as they are 8"+ away from enemies, whereas skullcrushers only have a ward vs magic. They hit on 2s vs heroes in reapers of vengeance, or mortal wounds on 5+ in blood Lords, so a simple +1 attack to them and suddenly 3 of them are 10 attacks with 5+ doing mortals in addition to those impact mortals they could easily nuke support heroes and super tanky units, whereas the skullcrushers may fail (rend 2 weapon still hits on 4s too) They can both be buffed up really well and are so similar. In general though the bloodcrushers do better vs tanky save units due to the mortal wound attacks on top of the charge, they're cheaper which can all add up, and vs low rend they're just as tanky/more tanky when using +1 to save command. I see skullcrushers as more of a tanky holder unit and bloodcrushers as the impact hitters. Bloodcrushers also have a model return if you get a 1 for battleshoco (you can roll even if they literally can't fail). If you prefer demons, go bloodcrushers, if you prefer mortals, go skullcrushers. They're both amazing now imo. Will have to wait for Saturday to truly know, as good as some of the YouTube videos are it still doesn't give the whole picture with keywords etc. Also on the subject of our new tome... I actually think blood warriors are great now. Yeah they still wound on 4s but they gained rend and a 3+ save, I did a battle where I kitted them out with the parry fist so all 6s to save dished a mortal back to the enemy, when they die they actually do damage now with 2 rolls per model 5+s doing a mortal too (they no longer have to 'pile in and fight' before being removed, which usually meant they couldn't hit anything anyway if you took them from the back and even if they could fight they hit like wet noodles. Now they're tanky 3+, can be returned on 4+s, ignore spells on 5+, dish out mortals on 6+ to save and potentially do a mortal or two when dying AND gained better attacks with rend. The glaive is also now rend 2 damage 2 so the champ is a bit of a beast hitting and wounding on 3s r2 d2. I'm pretty hyped. So hyped I preordered the special edition tome a few days ago which I never usually do... didn't even bother with the last tome just used online sources and the app, so I'll return here if I find any tasty combos that the YouTube videos may have glossed over! I've also painted 5 wrathmongers (5+ save still boo), the last 11 bloodletters I hadn't painted and 3 bloodcrushers in the last few days!

What I'd love - new centrepiece as nagash is 'dead' the vamps break free of his control and we get a sweet ass model like katakros but a vampire (cough Vlad cough) Or something else cool, necrarch style magic guy like zacharias.... What I'd hope - mounted vampire lord. What I'm expecting - new foot hero we don't really need. At any rate, forgetting new sculpts, what I'd really REALLY love is for mannfred to return to being a beast at magic. Currently 2x casts with no bonus just feels...wrong.

Alarm set

Our new tome seems really cool. Played my first battle with it yesterday vs KO - went to battle round 5 drawing in points and ended up losing but it was so fun! Keeping in mind I had to use everything I own to get to 2k so not exactly a well thought out list, but still awesome. Couple of things I noticed... I mainly play demons and they always felt a little lackluster and terrible in combat considering they are *the* combat army. They feel way better overall! - bloodletters 2 wounds each with the 5+ ward when 8 inches or more away are much tougher to take down. 2 attacks each 3s and 3s r1 is double the attacks they had and better at hitting. Easy access to hero phase movement and some other shenanigans means they're much more likely to get in before dying. I played the blood lord faction which means all bloodletters do mortals on 5s and 6s instead of just 6s *(pretty sure this includes other units such as the hero and bloodcrushers too!)* my bloodreaper and the bloodletters/crushers put in some serious work. Before they felt like they hit like a wet flannel, now they can be scary again - scary mortal wounds, access to high rend from prayers/tithe etc. And harder to bring down. Thirsters with extra wounds and the ward are great. We have a tiny amount of items/traits but imo they're all great and usable. Prayers are still a must. Which reminds me, the bloodreaper is a priest now! In general everything feels better meaning if key targets are removed quickly it's not *such* a pain, the whole army can be good. I think both demons and mortals will be better off, and although the subfactions are aimed at one or the other, a mixture of both works without gimping much.

Great review overall but I feel you've missed some huge upgrades. Just some examples: Bloodletters you say received some small nerfs but say nothing about their huge buffs. Double the previous wounds, double the attacks, double the range and +1 to hit. Bloodcrushers got +1 save, +1 to hit and 5 wounds. Blood warriors gained better attacks with rend in addition to what you listed. Skullcrushers went up to 5 wounds with a 2+ save(!). Their weapons also got +1 rend so they have either -1 or -2 for the glaives. Just a handful I noticed.

Prayers are during hero phase, blood tithe is spent at the end of the hero phase.