Dolomedes

I love battletomes with everything in. If I've got games coming up, I'll routinely re-read the tome from a different strategic perspective to try and spot things I haven't seen before. Having the physical copy is much, much better for doing this than an app. Sometimes I even pencil in notes on the scrolls. I've done this when they've had updates, or when I've wanted to leave a tactical note to myself for that particular warscroll. The physical battletome is as much a part of my army as the models - it's a playbook. I still physically write my lists too rather than using apps. Sure it takes longer, but when you've physically written your own list, from your own notes, with your battletome in hand, you end up with a much, much better understanding of your army. I think the physical element of battletomes can potentially make you a much better player than glossing over an app. Then again, I could just be out of touch with you crazy kids and your new fangled technology.

Final bit of BoC fanboying while I'm on topic. The army itself is in a really weird spot as it doesn't really 'do' anything. Most armies have some sort of theme to them - magic, ranged, undead, cavalry, monsters etc. You pick that army because it has cool models that do a thing you like better than other armies can. Our theme used to be superior movement and ambushing, but there's loads of armies that can do it just as well if not better (SCE). Warherd could be a big monstrous smashing beast army, but Destruction do it better (SoB, Ironjawz). Brayherds can be fast moving hordes, but Skaven and SCE (not hordes) can do it better. Our magic is pretty weak compared to other factions, so that's out the window. There was a time when we were a great range faction (I have 90 ungor raiders) but that's gone too in this edition. We lack a centrepiece (and a good named character - please rebirth Morghur!). At the moment, the army sell is - 'Do you like running multiple chaff units that explode when touched? Do you want to have an army that can't kill anything? Do you want to paint 100 models brown? Like running away whenever anyone swings at you? Want to spend the first hour of your game setting up and doing turn one movement? Want to run up to your opponent and stop 3 inches away just to annoy them? Do you like a masochistic gameplay challenge that will take you years to perfect until you can reliably win casual games? Like finecast and practically useless monsters that can only really be fielded as distraction pieces? Then BoC are for you!' Though I sound pretty salty, I do love my beasts, and I've enjoyed 3.0 so far. I've got my fingers crossed that October will be the month we get a bone thrown at us.

If that happens I will personally lead a herd of creatures into Nottingham and erect a herdstone in front of HQ.

Interesting take, but I don't think it's likely. They would have to retcon massive amounts of lore - namely the whole of 1.0 where Beastmen were heavily featured fighting with Nurgle in Ghyran. Beastmen are also featured at the start of Kragnos fighting/being whipped by Alarielle, so they're in recent lore too. In that bit of lore, there's mention of 'The Oak of ages past', and Athel Loren. My hope is that with the Oak and Athel Loren returning, Morghur will show up again to corrupt it as he has tried to do 3 times before. Morghur is probably the most popular Beastmen character, and is an 'entity' in the mortal realms (see Gavespawn in the BoC tome). Morghur is also linked by blood to Alarielle, and Athel Loren itself. Wherever Alarielle goes, Morghur will follow. Then again, in this passage the Beastmen are pretty soundly destroyed (as well as the dirgehorn), so maybe that's our swan song. As Kragnos is the book that's most related to our current edition, and there's lots of artwork featuring the fabulous goat boys, my hunch is they're being set up for something in the story. It would be pretty shoddy story telling if this passage was just 'and all of the Beastmen were killed, the end.' There's also the front of the GHB with the Chimera that has a goat head. That's probably going to be something at some point, but then again, GW have a fantastic track record of forgetting that BoC exist. I just so happen to be sat next to a massive stack of Beastmen models, so I've been checking them out for iconography. Ungor Raiders, the Beastlord, Great Bray Shamans, and Bullgors with Great axes (shields might do but I don't have any) don't have any chaos icons on them. Gors, Ungors with shields, Bestigors and Centigors tend to have a chaos mark of some sort on them for around every 5 models, but as you say, it's hardly distinct. Chariots have a star on the whip/spear guy on the front, but that's it.

There's mentions of Dragon Ogres in Kragnos, so if there's a BoC redo, hopefully we'll see some fresh kits (they're old af). With the release of Kragnos and the Kruleboyz, Destruction are stepping on the toes of the Beastmen aesthetics (angry horde creatures in swamps/wilds, and Ghorros warhoof on steroids). My punt for BoC, if we are getting a redo, is that it'll be more 'Chaosy' - more mutations, more chaos monsters (new chimera, hopefully useful Cygor rules), more Chaos god/StD interactions, less of the hyper specialised skirmish chaff stuff. Rather than creatures from the old world woods, they'll be more like creatures from the Chaos wastes. Of course, this is pure guesswork based on absolutely nothing but my own pontificating.

Got a decent game in last night against SCE, which me and the lads won on turn 3! I'm finding this edition that hero spam in Gavespawn is really good. The Extra chaos spawn showing up on an objective or tying down an enemy unit is really powerful. It's even more so now that there are fewer objectives (this ability pretty much won me the game). I've also found that Tuskgor Chariots are really good too (though they always were). I had 3 in my list with 1 as a summon, so on turn 1 I had 4 on the board. One got into combat from ambush, and the rest just sat on the opponents corners looking mean. Chariots are 6 wounds, so they count as 2 models for contesting. Like the Chaos Spawn, Chariots were great at pinning the enemy's units in place whilst the rest of my army could take objectives get into position. Chariots usually get some decent fighting done as well if you get the charge off. When they die, just summon them back in and hope for the 9 on a re-roll. Chariot spam is back. I suspect that Centigors will pull off a similar role, and I aim to get mine painted soon. Anybody know if that guy from the Herdstone (RIP) with 12 Tuskgor chariots posts here? I'd love to see what that list does now!

BoC lurker here. It's a shame that in 3.0 we can't run big Nurgle beast armies anymore - I'm hoping this will change in the near future with the rumours of a new chaos book that's likely to be BoC or Nurgle. There's a lot of Nurgle Beast armies in the fluff (particularly in Ghyran) so I think they should be represented on the tabletop. I've got a nice stack of Maggotkin models that I painted up in the End Times that are sorely missing the company of goats. Anyway, this has caught my attention: Bullgors are good but they take finesse to use. You have to plan ahead and keep them well screened. Everyone knows that Bullgors with great axes pose a serious threat, and they will be targeted. They got better in 3.0 with access to all out attack, as their old weakness was the 4+ to hit that could make them unpredictably swingy. You don't usually get them into combat until the mid game, so when you send them in to smash something, you really want them to maximise their damage output. Keeping them safe from shooting/magic can be challenging. They work well if you hold them back behind 2 screens of chaff, wait for said chaff to get charged, then send in Bullgors as a counter charge. Their 5+ save makes them squishy in combat, but the Harbinger might be able to help out there. Ideally, you want to send in Bullgors as buffed as you can get them, and make sure you get to attack first. If you get it right, they can kill most things. Unfortunately taking them in Nurgle means they don't get their 'Primal Instinct' battle traits - Mortal wounds on the charge, and healing if they destroy a unit. I don't think it's worth taking a Doombull in a Nurgle army for this reason. Doombulls make nice buff pieces that can fight well, but they don't have many attacks, so they aren't the 'hammer' that you'd expect them to be. They're most effective when they have access to their allegiance abilities. There's better ways of buffing Bullgors in the Nurgle book. Orghotts Daemonspew's wound reroll is particularly good, as Bullgors do MWs on 6s to wound. Glottkin's +1 attack is also an obviously good choice.

I'm not convinced the Jabberslyth is terrible. I'm holding out for the day we can take Bloab Rotspawned in a BoC army. I'd love to run him next to a Jabberslyth with a Dirgehorn. Who cares about the jabber buffing attacks when they're -2 to hit. Bloab's spell got really good in 3.0 with Monstrous Actions. Nice cast debuff stacking potential there too.

BoC have 3 negative separate save modifiers (Herdstone, Tendrils of Atrophy Spell, Sundering Blades Spell). I can see these working well for us in 3.0. It would be good to see more armies with access to stuff like this. I think the biggest advantage is that giving something a rend modifier is that it's easily written into rules without totally knackering everything else. It's an existing core mechanic, so it wouldn't take much effort to implement, and just making this more accessible avoids 'have and have not' battletomes being created.

The best thing about the Cockatrice is the endless amount of childish amusement. 'I'm going to have to stick a steel rod in my Cockatrice, this glue just isn't making it stiff enough' etc. I've had mine 2 days, and I haven't got bored yet. Not even a bit.

Personally I think they're not a great pick. Too slow and squishy (handing easy VPs), and the Ghorgon might well do the same job better for 10 points less. The Ghorgon has more wounds, similar damage output, no silly charge rule, MWs on the charge and MWs in combat, and it can get buffed by a Doombull and Darkwalkers greatfray. Ghorgons and Gargants I see as being anti infantry monsters. They just don't have reliable enough output to deal with anything scarier, and we have better options available for that anyway (Bullgors, Enlightened, Skyfires, Bestigors). If you're after monsters to do cool monster stuff with, the Cockatrice or a Bray Shaman can do it for half the price, with other neat stuff too. Cockatrice doesn't have the Behemoth profile, so you can take it without filling out a behemoth slot. Personally I think the Jabber might be worth another read. 3 range attacks, -2 rend, 4+ save, no profile degradation, MW output, casting debuffs, and decent reliable fly movement. On a 4+ it's now our hardiest monster (shaggoth excluded). Only issue is that dam attack buff to enemy units. There's alot of potential there for 165 points. Perhaps it could be used as bait to set you up for a counter charge. Easy VP for your opponent to take, that they can't ignore, but it's pretty much guaranteed to do something before it inevitably explodes. This is pure theory hammer here though, and I haven't played one for a while, so it might function completely differently on the battlefield. I can't help but think there's something I've missed about it though. I suppose you could get it to 'Unleash Hell' before it get's charged too!

Cracking idea. Decent model count too for capping an objective deep in enemy territory. Would work well with a Bestigor bomb doing the same from the front. It's an easy battle tactic on 'Savage Spearhead' as well. What do you find more effective - Beastlord or Enlightened? I suppose that may be greatfray dependent.

Got my first game of 3.0 in yesterday. I'm a diehard Beastmen player since 8th, with them being my only army to this day. Sticking with a sub par faction for so long has taught me a totally different list building and gameplay strategy to other players, so I think I've got a unique perspective to bring to this discussion. Firstly, I lost last night's game to Skaven, but only by a point on turn 5. It was my own tactical folly that cost me the game in choosing risky early game battle tactics and forgetting a 'Roar' at the crucial moment. What I think is worth mentioning here, is that despite having possibly the weakest army in game, I found no trouble at all in taking the game up to turn 5, and giving my opponent a great game that really came down to the wire. The doom mongering about BoC having a rubbish battletome in 3.0 is partly true, but I think it's being over exaggerated. The old tomes can deliver if you get the list right. BoC can do well with the new Battle Tactics and Grand strategies, and I think that the new 3.0 rules give underpowered armies some nice new tactical options to explore. At first I was somewhat concerned about other army's Hero Hammer options, but then I realised there's an easy counter. Just take more units and waste their time. You can easily chaff up some jacked God-tier hero monster and make their several hundred point investment worth nothing just by feeding it naff units. 'Oh no! Not my unit of naked goat/man/dog/pig things! The horror!' Tarpits and chaff are the classic anti-hero option, so now they'll be auto includes in my lists. If you can chaff up hero hammers, you can deny them from scoring points on battle tactics, and make your opponent sweat as your more solid units are sat on the objective taunting them. Anyway, back to actual game discussion. From the outset, I approached the game thinking 'How can I stop him getting Battle Tactics and a Grand Strategy?'. This was built into my list, and I took care not to feed easy victory points to him ('Line breaker', 'Bring it Down'). Access to the new battalions was great, as it gave me access to a bunch of units I haven't really used before that I wouldn't usually take due to the old battalion restrictions. Small, fast, independent units that you wouldn't normally care about losing just got really good. Those little foot heroes you always look over are worth another take. Warhounds have become one of my new favourite units. They are the goodest of boys. I've had many games against my opponent in the past since pre 1.0, so we were well matched. It was a little bit of a stretch adjusting to the new rules, but it got easier. I think remembering Monster and Hero actions will take a while, but forgetting them and suffering consequences will soon sort that out. Coherency just wasn't a thing - I think the doom mongering when we first saw it was overblown. It was an easy adjustment, and I found my units still functioned in pretty much the same way, minus a few guys fighting on the ends. I really enjoyed playing the battle tactics, and it brought a new level of tactical depth to the game for me. Despite my army being solid bottom tier, this new form of play has opened up so many new interesting options. I've had to reassess a lot of my old auto includes, and look at new units in a completely different light. I'm confident that there's some nifty options these new tactics will reveal, but we've got some more reading to do before we start spotting them. For years now I've always said to myself when list building 'How will this unit help me score more points than my opponent?' - AOS has always been more of a football match than a boxing bout, and after my game last night I can see underneath the surface this is still the case. It's exciting times for us leper BoC players at the bottom of the pile!

I think 10 man units is the way forward now. What's the math looking like on a 30 man with +1 to hit?

Some more thoughts on us in 3.0 from my game. Taking 2 battle regiments for my battalions worked well. My opponent went for the 1 drop, so I got a decent set up on him and could out manoeuvre from turn one. The advantage of filling out 2 battle regiments was in the sheer amount of extra units I could bring. Having more units meant I could win the MSU game and get my grand strategy easily - 'Predator's Domain' (control more terrain than your opponent). I think there's a good case to be made for chariot spam - they're super cheap and can get stuff done right out of turn one. 6 wounds means they're 2 models for objective capping, and they can function quite well independently. Their 4+ save means they'll probably stick around a bit too, and if they survive, they can easily get where they're needed. 2 Battle regiments means you can take 10 units, so I I'll aim to fill up the slots with chariots. I've got Centigors to paint up, which I will probably use in the future for a similar role. Our access to lots of cheap, fast chaff units can give us a serious advantage in the field if we take enough of them. Warhounds are great. Their large base size makes them my best screen. They easily paid their points cost by screening off a Skaven Gnawhole. They aren't battleline, so they can screen without giving away easy VPs to 'Linebreaker' (kill a battleline unit). If mine didn't get blown up, they would have been handy late game to go grab an objective. I think I'll get a second unit. Great Bray Shaman's remain a must have. Devolve is such a good spell, and mystic shield is essential. Also the +3 to movement for Brayherd units is huge. I aim to max out Bray Shamans. 'Metamorphosis' is the hot new spell for them, as it turns them into monsters. This means they can access the monstrous rampage table. One of my shaman's turned into a Monster and blew up a Gnawhole by using 'Smash to Rubble'. They can also access 'Roar' and 'Stomp' doing mortal wounds or denying command abilities. Bray Shamans can turn themselves from 2 to 5 models for contesting objectives by using Metamorphosis, making them incredibly useful late game for capping objectives, or even getting the bonus VPs that are monster specific. Heroic recovery helps them out with their natural squishyness. 'Viletide' and 'Vicious Stranglethorns' can give them a bit of mortal wound output too. An excellent unit for 100 points. My Ghorgon performed well by clearing 27 clan rats in one turn but I still think they're underwhelming. They're just too slow and squishy, and their wound table degrades too quickly. Having access to the Monster keyword is handy for point scoring, but I think we have better options in the Shaggoth and the Cockatrice (and Bray Shaman - see above). Playing the Ghorgon seems to me like handing your opponent easy VPs ('Bring it Down' battle tactic, 'Predators and Prey' special rule). I shed a tear for my Ungor raiders. For a long time I've enjoyed bringing 2 or sometimes 3 units of 30. Mass pew pew is no longer as effective with their recent scroll change (re-roll hits of 1 & 2 if you have 30 is now +1 to wound if there are 10 or more). They'll live on as 10 man ambushers or screens, picking off points here and there. Still a good option as a summon if you get a good Primordial call roll, but I can't see me bringing 90 of them again. Doombull & Minotaurs are still good can openers that can reliably deal damage. Their new impact hits rule is a nice boost, but I think the Doombull is now overshadowed by the Shaggoth as a general pick (Monster keyword, good magic), unless you're leaning into Warherd. My minotaurs got blown up in the magic phase so I can't comment about their effectiveness. Overall, I think 3.0 will give a nice chance for some of our chaff units to shine. Previously I found myself not taking them as they were difficult to get into Battalions for low drop deployment, but now we'll be able to see their strengths on the table. I think the way to play is going to be to try dominating the outfield objectives game from the start, and using strength in numbers with superior movement to tilt the Battle Tactics in our favour.

Gors would have been a much better choice if my ****** Skaven opponent didn't choose 'Tooth and Nail' as the battleplan. You can't ambush in that plan, and you can't charge/shoot on the turn your models set up as a reinforcement, so that screwed up my nifty deployment tactics. Gors functioned as meatshields (with shields) to hold onto objectives, and did it better than Ungors would have done. Backed up with a GBS for mystic shield in the later turns, they justified their extra 5 point cost. Gors will be remaining in future lists as 10 man blocks for objective/ambush shenanigans. I think using them for ambushes will be the way forward now, as they can pose a psychological threat with their charge re-roll, but more importantly, if they from ambush in some weird location they can be kept out of harm's way denying VPs for your opponent going for 'Linebreaker'. Bestigors did a stellar job of wiping out a flank but then got blitzed by a Stormvermin/Thanquol/Warlord counter charge. The 30 block always does the job I want it to. They run up the field, punch something in the face, then draw fire and die. I kept them in herdstone range on turn 3 and backed them up with the Tendrils GBS, Beastlord, and Spawn. Stormvermin were on a 6+ save when they counter charged, so the remaining Bestigor were set to liquidate them. My opponent knows how dangerous unchecked Bestigor are, so he committed Thanquol's flamethrowers & magic as well as a souped up Stormvermin unit with Clawlord. I find the great strength of the 30 man block is that it forces your opponent to commit to dealing with it. The bray shaman guarantees they'll get where you want them to be and provides Mystic Shield/Tendrils/Devolve, the Spawn boosts attacks, the Beastlord now buffs them without having to use a command ability (as well as dealing some decent damage) and turns to Spawndom on death providing extra wounds for the opponent to deal with. Spawndom was good for hanging on to objectives as spawn count as 2 models with their 5 wound profile. 30 3+ saves with heroes & spawns takes commitment to kill, and your opponent is forced to commit to it or they get smacked by them and risk losing an objective. The advantage of the 30 man block isn't in it's killing power - it's in it's pulling power. They inevitably die, but it pulls the opponents nastiest units away from other objectives for a few turns, providing us a clear field to win the chaff game and score early VPs. Also, if you've got minotaurs nearby, the 30 man block works great as an anvil to the minotaur hammer. I'll continue to run my 30 man block as a suicide Tarpit/Anvil that can turn into a Hammer if left alone to set up. Always keep inspiring presence ready for them. See above spiel about Bestigors - sending them in as a suicide bomb forces the opponent to spend their +1 save resources on dealing with it, and with hero/spawn support a 30 man block can effectively force the engagement to give you advantage on the rest of the field. Stacking save debuffs with rend definitely works, even the effect is only psychological. Rather than spreading out engagements, force them - the Bestigors can do it with a 100% success rate. I'm not sure you'd be able to reliably pull off the same tactic with Gors, as they're much less threatening, and less survivable. Sticking the Taurus in there for combat order is a great idea - once mines is painted, I'll give it a shot. Supporting the Bestigor Bomb with a Taurus ready Shaggoth just behind might well be an improvement on what I have.

Switching Ungors to Gors as I have 5 points spare.

First game of 3.0 today - Taking this list. Word salad below. The list is in 2 battle regiments, so it's a 2 drop list. The 1st regiment contains trash drops - GBS with Stranglethorns, Ungor herdstone campers and the chariot. Hopefully this will give me an advantage to set up well if my opponent opts for a 1 drop battle regiment deployment. If they have more drops than 2, I'll be able to dictate first turn. I can put the chariot in ambush which might get my opponent to screen it out and deploy further back, giving me better control of the centre. I could also deploy it aggressively in the middle of the table, pulling my opponent forward on deployment leaving their backline exposed for a potential ambush (gors for re-reoll charges, raiders for firepower). Pulling their army forward by aggressively deploying fast turn one hitters like chariots opens up easy VPs by using ambush to get 'Savage Spearhead'. 8th edition fantasy Beastmen taught me how useful chariots are for deployment psychology - your opponent will always react to a chariot deployment, even if the chariot is naff. The rest of the list is fairly standard BoC stuff. The Bestigor blob with the Beastlord, Chaos Spawn and Tendrils GBS is the centre anvil. I went for 30 because in AoS 1.0 I found that maximising buffs (+1 to hit, +1 to save, +1 attack & +1 to wound all available here) across 30 models makes for a pretty decent centre that will hold an objective for multiple turns (unless your opponent has MW spam). It can usually kill off most things that get thrown at it too, even if they die horribly in the process. I'll aim to keep them away from monsters so I can use inspiring presence each turn. Inspiring presence on this unit is crucial (also worth keeping near the herdstone for the same reason). I'll use this blob to try and get the 'Conquer' battle tactic on turn 2 or 3, and 'Ferocious Advance' if there aren't any better battle tactics available early game. The Ghorgon will probably be more of a distraction than anything integral to my strategy. It's there for a potential 'Monstrous Takeover' if available (though I think this would be better achieved by using metamorphosis on the blob GBS). It will probably get shelved after today unless it does something seriously impressive. I see our monsters as just giving away VPs as they're mostly on squishy 5+ saves. He's only out because I gave him a fancy new base and I want to see him in the table. The Doombull & Minotaurs are there as a can opening hammer. I always keep them back and send the Bestigors up first. I'm running them in 6 rather than 2 * 3. I know a lot of people argue that the new coherency makes 3 man units more optimal. Personally, I can't think of a single time I ever manged to get all 6 into combat - usually it's 4 or 5 on the charge, and then one of them dies anyway, making the coherency stuff a non issue for me. All out attack on this unit is essential to get decent damage output from them, as their weakness has always been the 4+ to hit. I'll keep them back with the Doombull and commit them mid game, hopefully as a counter charge. I intend to use them to get 'Broken Ranks'. Doombull is the general, so he stays back to deny 'Slay the Warlord'. Will probably switch him out to a Shaggoth once it's painted. It's fairly obvious what the raiders are there for. Either use them as shooting support for the centre, or as an ambushing hero sniper. I'm leaning more towards keeping them behind my screens so I can goad a charge and 'Unleash hell'. I went for 20 to maximise All Out Attack's effectiveness. Raiders tend to be objective holders late game once everything else is dead, so I'll keep them out the way so I've got a decent model count to go contesting with. Raiders also work well with the Warhounds - as they're slightly taller than dogs, they can shoot over the top of them. Warhounds and Gors will act as screens, but the Gors might get used to ambush the backlines. Warhounds make a particularly good screen as they're non battleline (denying 'Broken Ranks') and their base size gives them a really wide coverage. If they don't die, they're also nifty for capping objective late game. If they do die, just summon them back in. I think I'll end up getting another unit of them. The sideboard has 3 chariots, 2 Spawn (for hero death), 50 Ungor Raiders (can't be arsed getting them out of my case), 30 Ungor with spears (mauls not painted yet), 10 Gor with Shields and 60 Gors with 2 weapons (again, can't be arsed moving them). I'm finding Chariots & Raiders make the best reinforcement summons as they're quickly accessible and they can start getting busy immediately - Raiders shoot, Chariots re-roll charges and can act independently. My opponent is bringing Skaven - will post later with a crude batrep and info about what works.

Beastmen have been 'hard mode' since 8th. To win, you have to be the cunning Beastlord and pour over all of the tactics you can get. Eventually you develop a knack for it. If we ever get a half decent ruleset and some fresh models, there's no doubt in my mind that BoC players will be hammering the top tables and we'll end up getting nerfed back into the woods again. But that's exactly what our faction is about.

Jim Bowen knew what was up. Looks like he was starting out a bully minotaur army himself

God I hope not. Kragnos is clearly what centigors should have been. I find it strange that Kragnos isn't BoC - it's the most Beastmen model I've ever seen.

Our giants are looking solid too.

Bully. A Bullseye themed minotaur army would be the greatest army ever made.

Being a new edition, it's highly unlikely that it will remain the game you like. Here's hoping they've done a good job and there's a good balance or rule fix for the coherency update. For now, I'm thinking of ways that this coherency rule can be abused. Ghorgons and Gargants just got really good.

For example's sake - if your army's favourite monster and un named heroes go down in points, but the unit costs go up for rank and file, you'll probably change your list to have more monsters and heroes. The new cohesion rule will apply to less of your army, so you won't be that bothered about it. That's not to say that the points values won't get hashed though. It's early days yet - points still have a big part to play.