Ganigumo

targetting multiple things with one command ability is pretty powerful, but in practice it just means ironjawz play mostly like they did in 2nd edition (battalion & purchased CPs + ironfist), although I would agree this is a bit better since you might have some spare cp now) The new books don't have new effects, but they've shown themselves willing to print them (see GHB). They've also been willing to print faction specific core battalions. I don't trust GW to not combine the two (as its a super obvious design space) and you don't need unique effects to create imbalance in the core battalion system (just look at the gargant ones for a good example, for every other army enhancements are taxed behind 3 heroes and taking an extra one will lock you to 4+ drops at the least. Gargants get to just spam their best units and get 2 of them if they want, or 3 drop and get an extra one, both of which are better than any other army has access too). The entire point of core battalions was to address the inequities in warscroll battalions. By introducing faction specific ones we're going to basically be back where we started. Obviously some armies can't use some core battalions, and some core battalions are bad in some armies, but that was the problem with the entire core battalion system in the first place. you can't clothe the world by giving everyone a small t-shirt, but giving everyone a shirt that fits them would be inequitable. The very existence of faction specific core battalions destroys the inequity that the system was supposed to eliminate, and completely invalidates the entire argument for getting rid of warscroll battalions unless every single faction specific core battalion is unplayably bad. For reference my preference was to keep warscroll battalions, and possibly introduce a few generic warscroll battalions, in part because I knew a system like this wouldn't actually fix the balance, just shift things around and because I didn't trust them to not print faction specific core battalions anyways (its an obvious design space)

I haven't looked at the stormcast book, but the orruk warclans one doesn't impress me for a bunch of reasons, all of which ironjawz seem to have avoided (good for them!) Each army gets 3 subfactions (for a total of 9) one each of the bonesplitterz and kruleboyz is just awful (bonegrinz and skulbugz) and one each is a situational anti meta pick (Grinnin' Blades and Drakkfoot), with the third one of each not only being stronger than the others in all but the most favorable situations but being objectively strong abilities even outside of the book. Its incredible just how much stronger big yellers is than the other two, not only does it have a very strong ability in rerolling one hit per boltboy/ballista unit (which is a BIG deal on the ballistas) but it also opens up the book in a big way by turning on boltboy battleline which are a whole 60 points cheaper than the only other battleline option. As icing their ranged units get a small amount of extra range. Icebone is in a similar situation, they got a better ability, and are the only subfaction to get boarboy battleline, which is the only unit that didn't get nerfed. Wasn't the point of having less rules tied to a subfaction to make it easier to balance? Instead these are not only poorly balanced, but do a much worse job of actually representing themselves on the table and guiding listbuilding. Bonesplitterz seem to have gotten their wounds taxed hard, as the army didn't get significantly stronger outside of the icebone subfaction. This might also be the case for gutrippaz, who feel really expensive when trying to build lists around. Bonesplitterz seemed to almost exclusively lose rules, with very little gained in exchange. Kruleboyz, while not seeming to be necessarily weak, have a bunch of unecessarily complex rules to follow to get their buffs, all of which are trivial for boltboyz to fulfill, which doesn't help with the internal balance issue of big yellers (both the shaman and the target of the poison/elixir need to be out of combat, AND within 3", AND wholly within 12", AND the shaman can't cast spells, AND in the hero phase) Gutrippaz scareshields are awful, if the enemy is within 12" AND this unit isn't within 3" of an enemy AND the target isn't a hero or monster, AND you roll higher than their bravery on a 2d6 AND you get to add 1 for every 5 models in this unit you get a buff that countless units get for basically free. Swampcalla shaman's poison is better than any of the spells they can cast 90% of the time, so the army will rarely cast spells. Lack of bonuses to cast/unbind on Gobsprakk and his good unbind requiring a dice roll, even though its only once per game don't really make for an interesting pick. Maybe I'm crazy but Kruleboyz don't actually feel very kunning, I really think the army should have a command ability to retreat at the end of the combat phase. It would go a LONG way to making the army feel sneakier, and would let you do things like reapply scareshields and poisons at a cost. Loss of Command Abilities on warscrolls, this is an issue because it isn't going to last long. Before long nearly every non-wizard hero is still going to have a unique command ability, but these books won't because they wanted to start simpler or something (Ironjawz kind of dodge this with mighty destroyers) Consumable items everywhere. These are rarely good and nothing changed here with kruleboyz getting literally nothing but once per game artefacts. (The ironjawz one for +3 damage is still great though) Faction core battalions: They existed in white dwarf first, technically, but they shouldn't exist at all. At least the warclans ones are basically unplayably bad, but this won't be the case for every book. They even printed unique battalion effects in the GHB so its only a matter of time until we get the next changehost. At this point why did they even bother getting rid of warscroll battalions, why couldn't they have just given less stuff for free and printed some warscroll battalions any army could use. Warscroll battalions were arguably easier to balance since they had points attached. I don't hate the book, but they made decisions here that I guarantee won't last the edition, and might not even be followed in the next battletome which will lead to some serious first book syndrome.

I'm not sure how desperate Kruleboyz are for CP, sure unleash hell and all out attack is useful on boltboyz but I don't know how unmanageable our CP situation is yet (it doesn't look too bad to me) so I'm not sure about the fungoid. Webspinner on arachnarok or skragrott would actually give us casters with bonuses, although they don't have many useful spells. A unit of troggoths could definitely be useful with a sloggoth on the field though. Fellwaters might be better? Here's the math (3 troggoths with +1 to hit, thanks Dobby!) I think fellwaters are better here because our mortals are already strong against units with high saves. In my experience rockguts are more durable but fellwaters grind pretty well, and thats a weak point of our army I think. its worth noting troggoths have 2" attack range, so you could realistically get all 6 fighting if you were to reinforce them (doubling this damage). Something interesting you could do, if you wanted to go troggoth heavy, is bring a dankhold troggboss (who comes in at 250 points, so could have a 3 man fellwater/rockgut escort) to combo with some sloggoths & mirebrute troggoths. The dankhold command ability lets all troggoth units wholly within 18" reroll hit rolls of 1, which works on mirebrutes. Its not a massive damage increase, but we could run a few mirebrutes in a list like that. The numbers (all with +1 to hit) @Jabbuk looks similar to the list I think will be strong, although imo a second shaman and sludgeraker make it much more consistent. I agree, we're pretty slow overall and are gonna need some cheap bodies/screens to not get destroyed on charges. Boltboyz are going to want to stick close to slugerakers for the bonus to their mortals too. Maybe a gutrippa heavy list could skimp on the hobgrots, but I'm not convinced gutrippa heavy is very strong (even though I'll probably end up running that)

Destroyer had some use last edition as well, Sometimes you really want to make sure something dies in one activation (mega gargants are a good example).

We did get this rumor engine back in march (that I thought would be spiderfang since the spear is shaped like a spider's leg). The aesthetic is definitely destruction, its very reminiscent of a spider's leg, and at this point we know its not part of warclans. Theres a good chance this is part of it imo

You can only use each command once per phase. There's a command trait (mega bossy) that lets your general use mighty destroyers even if another unit issued that command that phase. So if you had a mega bossy megaboss on maw krusha, and a foot megaboss you could mighty destroyers 5 units. If you had double maw krusha you could mighty destroyer 6 units.

Madcap's warscroll spell is arguably more useful, but if you have a spare artefact he's the only one that can take moonface mommet which is one of our best artifacts (tags enemy units for -1 on their save rolls)

When I saw that gutrippa shields don't work in combat, and you can't poison things in combat I figured we'd get access to some form of bonus retreat (or retreat and charge). A command ability to have a unit retreat at the end of combat would've gone a LONG way in this book, both in terms of versatility and flavor.

So it seems like now that things are opening up a bit here I'll finally be able to go to an event! (Red harvest GT). I think I'm gonna bring spiderfang, play a bunch of aos, and get completely bodied (the Vice is one of the battleplans). Been brainstorming some lists, not sure if I want to bring some Troggoths or not (they have different bases which would break the theme unless I paint up some Ice Troggoths) Current List: I really want that double enhancement so I can get an amulet of Destiny and the totem, Itchy nuisance on the fungoid will be useful so I can combo charge things if I need to, and flaming weapon actually works on mount attacks, so I can use it on the arachnarok's leg attacks for a significant damage boost. Thoughts? Suggestions?

Gobsprakk's good unbind is only once a game, and average of 3d6 is like 10.5

Yeah i missed the captains attack on the gutrippaz and thought the troggoth only got +2. Gutrippaz still need a shaman and sludgeraker to get good damage though. Haven't gotten any games in yet, but i'm a bit concerned that the restrictions on the shamans poisons are going to make it too difficult to buff gutrippaz reliably. As far as recovery goes though the troggoth will be hurting itself and has a lower number of total wounds. Plus the troll regeneration is better than it sounds, i have a troggoth army and the number of times its actually been useful is incredibly small. 7 is better than 6 for heroic recovery, although neither is particularly consistent at it.

Personally I definitely think the extra sludgeraker is worth it. The aura is only 12" so being able to have multiple areas of power on the map is a big deal, plus the sludgeraker is actually a monster unlike the mirebrute so they get the added benefit of monstrous rampages. Sludgerakers pump up the damage on those boltboyz as well, plus boltboyz want to be using the hasty shot profile when they can so having them tail the sludgeraker makes a lot of sense. Consider a big yellers list (really isn't a reason to play the other two unless you're running 0 boltboyz or ballistas) with: 2x sludgerakers 2x shamans 2x6 boltboyz 1x10 gutrippas 2x ballista 3x10 hobgrots This list would have 2 centers of power around the sludgerakers, while being able to project power through the ballistas and boltboyz. Gutrippaz and hobgrots just serve as screens and objective holders. The list I'm actually probably going to run is a bit similar but way more focused on gutrippaz because I like the models: Big yellers? 2x sludgeraker 2x shaman 1x killaboss on vulture 2x20 gutrippaz 1x3 boltboyz + 1x10 hobgrots or 1x10 gutrippaz I don't think its better, but I get to play with the models i like more.

Everything here is on +1 to hit except the 3 boltboyz (since you need to use a cp for it, rather than an faq'd sloggoth) boltboyz are using hasty shot and the mirebrute is getting the +2 attacks. the damage between them is pretty close, but the sludgeraker also has the added support benefit of buffing nearby unit's venom.

Sludgeraker damage is high enough to function as a proper hammer, and for its points it seems very strong. With just a +1 to hit it does 15.85 vs a 4+, 11.07 vs a 2+ and 20.17 vs a 6+, plus they can take artifacts, mount traits, and the shaman buff (damage calculator wouldn't apply both the shamans buff and the sludgeraker one and I don't want to do the math on paper) 10 gutrippas with a sludgeraker and shaman buff only do around 10.83 to a 4+ (honestly their non mortal damage is pretty negligible though) 2-3 sludgerakers is probably very viable, and might be the way to go competitively.

I was thinking the same thing, last time it was chaos vs order for a warcry box, chaos vs destruction would make sense this time, although i think there's a decent chance it would be an ogroid warband instead of a BoC one.

I think the argument for the third is that you might want to cast spells. The first two you take will probably be too busy passing out poisons to bother casting spells.

Oh man I really hope its spiderfang! Warcry has been increasingly looking like small aos (with them adding aos heroes as champions) so a kit with a scuttleboss and some spider riders could make sense. I'd love for the plastic scuttleboss to get the knight draconis/lord of afflictions thing and double as an elite monstrous cavalry unit! Maybe this is our rumored spiderfang vs BoC box? The BoC side could be the bullgors/doombull in the rumor but if its warcry it could be a full ogroid warband.

Got the tome and leafed through and here are my thoughts so far: Big yellas is clearly the standout subfaction, 2 useful abilities (rerolls and battleline boltboyz) and one decent one +3" range. Grinnin blades is situationally useful, skulbugz is awful. Artifacts are generally too weak for once per game, the universal ones are better. If you're casting spells with your swampcalla you're doing something wrong. Despite the range requirements and needing both the shaman and the target out of combat the mortals on a 5+ is better than any spell he can cast. Gutrippaz shield ability is still awful, only works out of combat, on a die roll, for a -1 to hit. The overall rules push you to exclusively play a boltboyz focused army. Sludgerakers are one of the best units and amplify boltboyz power, the shaman doesn't run into issues keeping the poison active on them (unlike gutrippas) and they get rerolls and are battleline in big yellers. Boltboyz being our cheapest battleline option breaks open listbuilding in a big way too. Ballistas receive an absurd power spike in big yellers from the hit reroll, since they're single models with 1 shot. Mirebrute & gnashtoof bosses fail to do anything to make them stick out? They don't seem bad, but aren't compelling as army options.

With the app release I noticed that MBoMK also has the triple up on command abilities. Honestly I think 2 megabosses, with one having mega bossy as the command trait is gonna be the way to go. Whether its two cabbages or a cabbage and a footboss being able to spread mighty destroyers to the whole army is going to be super powerful, because of that I think we're actually going to want to bring warlord/command entourage for the command points, so we can be sure to have the CP to get stuck in early.

To be honest it would make sense to just slap the gloomspite keyword on the sloggoth and put it in gitz faction as well. Its a troggoth ridden by grots. I was hoping for a similar situation with the mirebrute, where there was a version with no orruk on top. But I could probably just do that and run it as a dankhold. I've got both armies anyways so I'm not too concerned though

Gordrakk + Mega bossy foot-megaboss can mighty destroyers 5 units a turn for 2cp, and throw around all out attack/all out defense to a bunch of units. Gordrakk being significantly less durable than a normal MBoMK is a bit of an issue though. Makes me wonder how viable double cabbage will be. Something like: Clan- Bloodtoofs 560- Gordrakk 480- MBoMK Artifact: Amulet of Destiny Mount Trait: Mean 'un 160- Megaboss General Command Trait: Mega Bossy Artifact: Destroyer 115- Warchanter Artifact:Arcane Tome 115- Warchanter 90- Orruk Wierdnob Shaman/Fungoid 150- 3x Gore-Gruntas 150- 3x Gore-Gruntas 150-3x Gore Gruntas Battalions: 2x Warlord Points 1970/2000? This army would be super fast, t1 you could use gordrakk to rush up himself, the other MBoMK and one unit of gruntas, and the foot boss could dash the other two units of GGs out, (or possibly himself and one). Seems a bit weak on objectives but you've got damage and speed.

Troggboss isn't bad in a Trogg build, but unless you're using him to buff multiple units of troggs and unlock trogg battleline I agree he's not worth his points. Rockguts definitely need an escort of some kind to be useful. Hopefully the new Sloggoth helps out a bit, but we'll need to wait and see.

Its a bit tragic that the daemon side is so strong, because the mortal side has been kind of weak since the new book dropped and they wouldn't dare buff them when the army is as good as it is. I play with tzaangors pretty often and they feel overcosted. You basically need to run a reinforced unit because of how their extra attack works, and they're only good if you can use it. Lack of any synergy for them, despite 2 expansion books (broken realms & wrath of the everchosen) is a bit ridiculous. Enlightened work as decent hammers, and skyfires can be decent skirmishers if you protect them. Pyrofane wasn't too bad in 2e, but the 25 point increase, and loss of the battalion to shoot twice really hurts them, plus its a CP heavy build. Should be fine for casual games though Guild of summoners just took a hit from the cog changes, but MSU kairics are some of the cheapest spells you can get. Probably good for casual games but its pretty inconsistent and you're really hinging on getting that LoC on t1. Cult of the transient form continues to be awful, we lost the awful battalion that synergized with it, the ranges are way too restrictive (the kairic model (not unit) that dies needs to be within 9" of a tzaangor unit), the ability only triggers in the combat phase now (I think this change came in aos3 since I remember discussions about cheesing with a bunch of CP and killing your own kairics, which was still awful but funny), Kairics suck in melee, 3.0 makes it so we can't spam the CA to get a better chance of getting a tzaangor. It also has the worst artifact and command trait in the entire book for some reason. Its insane, and definitely a top contender for worst subfaction in the entire game.

I played her in a game at the start of aos3 and she's pretty durable, being a monster hero has it's benefits in aos3 and amulet of destiny is exactly what she needed. Of course forgeworld priced it out of ally range for any of the many destruction factions that had troggoth allies because they hate money or something.

Good work GW! You finally made them a fair unit to play with, and reduced the silly rules interactions by a lot. I've only got 2 issues with the new scroll: No longer a wizard No separate point cost for choosing Petty vengeance over splitting This change is good for the health of the game, even if its a nerf. If they can be made to have a cheaper cost for choosing petty vengeance I will be very happy.