Ineffectual Clawlord
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Posts posted by Ineffectual Clawlord
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43 minutes ago, The Red King said:
That was a lot of really good info and I see what you're saying now.
Doesn't Skreech get to pick a lore spell meaning he could be his own skitterleap or death frenzy caster?
Verminlords don't get to pick a spell from the lore of ruin, unfortunately, as they aren't Grey Seers.
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4 hours ago, The Red King said:
I appreciate the reply but I'm wondering, I already have a grey seer in the list so do you think it's still worth dropping a clawlord to squeeze in the vermintide? Alternatively is an endless spell worth dropping the extra CP? I hadn't considered the summoned clanrats offering a movement boost to my opponent and screening out with vermintide does sound effective.
You didn't mention the spells in your list, so I just assumed you took Death Frenzy, which is what lets Skaven compete in melee. Pretty much what I cooked up was this:
SpoilerAllegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Shyish
Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (180)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Grey Seer (140)
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Lord Skreech Verminking (320)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd & Shield
Claw-horde (180)
Extra Command Point (50)
Vermintide (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 158
Obviously you should fine tune it to your local meta (e.g. Ignax's Scales over Ethereal if you face a lot of MW) and to your liking (e.g. Cunning is unreliable, but gives you some additional CP). @Skreech Verminking likes Warpflamers; a Doomwheel, fighty Verminlord, cheap shooting etc. are all options you can play around with later on.
The Clawlord is very survivable by default (not a monster, so look-out-sir! applies), but putting him in combat still means that your positioning can be awkward as your other troops are deceptively mobile. This is the additional benefit of Skitterleap, besides 1st turn shenanigans, as it allows in-combat repositioning.
For Skreetch, his spell is amazing, but what you do with the summoned Clanrats is really dependent on the board. If you only get 2 and can't block anything, you can always position them to the side and threaten backline objectives in conjunction with other mobile elements (Skreetch primarily). It's very versatile, and Skreetch is actually a good unit. For me, I never use him outside of Bell-summoning because he doesn't do anything I absolutely need, like battleshock-immunity, and I always find myself strapped for points.
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On 1/7/2020 at 8:39 PM, The Red King said:
Skreech Verminking
Grey seer on bell
Clawlord on Brood Horror ×2
Clan rats×40
Clan rats ×40
Stormvermin×40
Clawhorde batallion
Extra CP
Alternatively I can drop the extra CP and 20 stormfiends and bring 2 claw hordes with four min sized clanrats and two 10 man stormvermin squads. Same number of CP, one less drop and one more relic. Doesn't seem worth the loss of their horde bonuses though.
Thoughts on traits and artifacts? I was thinking Things-bane and Brutal Fury on one clawlord and Verminous Valour on the other. Then Master of Magic and maybe Aetherquartz brooch to keep those CP flowing or Skavenbrew to try to stack obscene numbers of attacks on the storms.
Is this casually playable at least against even mildly competitive armies? I like it for being thematic looking and what I have available mostly.
It's not that Verminus units are bad, it's simply that they cost too much, both when compared to other options inside as well as outside our battletome. I'd drop one Clawlord, and put Verminous Valor (+ ethereal amulet if you are really concerned) on him. If you want to use Skreetch, I'd spend the points on a Grey Seer to Skitterleap him turn 1 to get in range for his spell, possibly another endless spell like Vermintide. Just take care to actually block the summoned rats instead of providing a charge target and extra movement for your opponent. 😉
Also, a couple of pages back there has been a discussion about whether a Clawlord on Brood Horror is a valid choice for Clawhorde. I still consider it to be the case, but maybe be prepared for the question should it appear.
On 1/9/2020 at 10:58 AM, Darkhan said:This has probably been answered before. But here we go again.
For some reason I always ate a token before a cast roll (reason I do not remember). But reading the rules again, it does not say that you have to eat it at the start of the hero phase. Does this mean! That I can cast a spell with a regular warlock engineer, and if it fails, I can then decide to eat a token to reroll that spell?
As others have stated, the argument is that throughout the book the "subphases"-doctrine had been established. Whenever they specifically want you to use an ability before another, the start-phase-construction is used. Therefore, it is at least valid to eat it after your roll, in the same way as using e.g. the Deceiver CA after you rolled the wounds (unless I am missing an FAQ?).
On 1/10/2020 at 11:43 AM, Obeisance said:How do you guys think competitive Skaven is going to trend post the nerfs/changes we received? I'm interested to see the results from whatever the next big event is.
Still good, but more middle-of-the-road-good than before. It's good to see that the wrinkles that made Skaven ridiculous at release have been ironed out.
The issue is currently that Skaven are essentially stale. If you look at lists from the release, the same units that are used now are to be found. Besides the initial point drops for Stormvermin (500pt being rather absurd) and Ratlings, nothing has been done to encourage diversity and internal balance.
Arguments can be made for units that provide some utility (e.g. Doomwheels), but others, like Rat Ogors have one purpose: dealing damage, and other units simply do it better for less points.
Apart from that, we have no allies, the mercenary companies are ... bland, the meta hasn't significantly shifted in any direction. So, list building stays the same, centered on a couple of archetype (Fiends/ Jezzail shooting/ Horde/Magice). This is vastly better than many other factions, mind you, and I certainly can't complain as there are still a lot of fun lists around. I have a lot of fun with my "Smashbros", Deceiver and Warpgnaw, leaping around the field, all jolly and ******.
The new Tzeentch tome looks delightful though, and I might just unpack my old 40k Tzaangors, and craft some Chaos spawn.
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On 1/5/2020 at 5:36 AM, Chase said:
What do you recommend for a x3 terrorgheist ghristlegore? Here's what I have
All of the shooting archetypes (Fiends, Jezzails, close range) are possible here, every one bringing something unique to the table. It's a question of positioning and playstyle. The primary way people lose to Terrorgheists is by
a) deploying too aggressively. While deploying, keep the threat ranges in mind and ask your opponent. If he gives you 1st turn (which I would do against a Fiends list), don't rush forward, rather play a conservative game as you have the range advantage.
b) beware the double pile-in. The Gheist damage is of course unpredictable, but unless your entire group of Clanrats gets devoured, remove casualties so your opponent is in base contact with them.
c) not taking enough screens. This is pretty self explanatory; Gristlegore has for a long time been a great argument for bringing a lot of rats.
Have a unit screen the back board edge (wholly within 6", more than 9" away...) to prevent summoning and additional pressure. All you want to care about is shooting down Gheists. And of course: destroy them completely, cut of the head, burn the corpse etc. The maw is the weapon that inflicts damage, and it does not degrade. Plus they regenerate. So, don't get greedy and split your shots all over the place. Good hunting!
@basement dweller Unfortunately, the way the book is designed there is no advantage to running mono-clans. All you do is cut yourself off options and abilities. The only 'battleline-if' that is potentially worth it are Monks - and even they love a Clanrat-screen. Ogres are one of the opponents you can actually fight, unlike e.g. OBR.
@Skreech Verminking I do agree with you. Flamers are more versatile than they initially appear, due to the overload mechanic allowing them to do damage to elite cav, e.g. 6 piggies. Outside the Archaon-Varanguard-list, there are basically no lists where they will be entirely useless.
Recently I started running 3 Fiends again, in the ol' Flamer-Ratling-Flayer setup, and it works quite well for me. It's a true all rounder and provides more versatility than a second group of Monks.
SpoilerGrey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Warlock Engineer (100)
- General
- Trait: Verminous Valour
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
3 x Stormfiends (260)
9 x Warplock Jezzails (420)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Vermintide (40)In a couple of test variations, e.g. Gutter Runners instead of Geminids. Deceiver instead of 2nd Bell etc.
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Concerning the OBR discussion, I'm against including units in my lists that only exist to counter specific lists or even building counter-lists to my usual opponents. I always like to approach it like I would a tournament list, namely in a balanced fashion (not in terms of power level).
Warpflamers en masse for example is highly situational. One can be quite a valuable addition as it works completely independent, i.e. takes no Skryre synergy and fits e.g. into Verminus inspired lists. That aside, they aren't even very good against OBR because of Crawlers/Nagash (ignoring the occasional non-Guard list).
The one thing you have to think about are Crawlers, and the plan boils down to:
a) ignore them. Pretty straightforward. Yes, they will get their money's worth and put a dent into your army, but they are fickle creatures and stand an equal chance of failing.
b) occupy them. Options here include Deceiver, 5 Gutter Runners, Doomwheels. Having a deepstrike option at the very least forces your opponent to put 10 Guard on screening duty and takes them out of the initial rounds.
c) kill them. If only it was so easy. The problem with counter-sniping is that, unless you run 12 Jezzails, you can't reliable do it. 9 buffed Jezzails have a 50-50 chance to destroy. Should you fail, the Crawler, using their special ammunition, can target Jezzail morale and completely wipe them.
What works quite well are warpflame-ratling-doomflayer Fiends. Even if they snipe your Engineer, you still have a Flamthrower in your pocket. Other than that, all the usual archetypes, except for double Monks, works quite well against OBR.
For Jezzails you have to change your priorities slightly: focus on keeping them alive, i.e. out of Crawler range. Taking out groups of 10 Guards (or 20 over 2 turns, which they can do even with healing) means that you take them the chance to compete in many multi-objective scenarios.
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The problems with pure Moulder are manifold, but quintessentially it is a slow melee army that does nothing special, has no allegiance abilities and few internal synergies. However, if people want to play with their mutated rats, who am I to judge?
SpoilerVerminlord Warpseer (320)
- Trait: Supreme Manipulator
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Rabid Crown
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
6 x Rat Ogors (300)
3 x Packmasters (60)
3 x Packmasters (60)
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Fleshmeld Menagerie (160)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Extra Command Point (50This is the Fleshmeld list that I would run if I was forced to. The key point is to have max. 2 drops in order to give the first turn away. Further, Cogs makes it more reasonable to actually reach the enemy. CP are absolutely essential, as the chance to bring back full packs is Moulders real appeal.
My advice is to ignore mono-clans; just take whatever units you like to run in a Masterclan list. Even from a roll-playing perspective, why would my supreme clan not hire someone else's disgusting subordinates to die in the stead of my disgusting subordinates?
SpoilerGrey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Plague
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Master Moulder (100)
- Trait: Verminous Valour
- Artefact: Rabid Crown
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
6 x Rat Ogors (300)
10 x Wolf Rats (200)
5 x Wolf Rats (100)
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)This would be my interpretation. It follows the wonderfully simple formula of: battleshock-immunity + Clanrats + replace usual hammers (ranged, monks) with clan X units.
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I initially missed that the exploding 6s on Monks also apply to the staves. This really changed my perspective on the unit, and it appears to actually be a buff for them. Blades and Staves kept their original archetype, meaning that Blades become better the more you assume goes wrong.
The key point is that you can buff Staves very easily. Vigordust is perfect for it, as for once the +1 to charge isn't wasted. With it you have a unit effectively hitting on 2+/2+ (exploding to wound is arithmetically a +1 to wound), with 2" 25mm bases and 3 attacks on the charge. A 2+ to hit is also an obvious candidate for the generic CA All-out-attack.
Assuming you get 30 models in, which shouldn't be that hard with +2 to charge, this results in:
vs. 3+ avg 24 damage, vs. 6+ 61.
Compared to the previous Stave spec, that's -22% damage on the charge, -12% not charging. Comared to Blades this means + 20%. (All of this assuming Vigordust buff).
The downside is that with only 19 models left, your damage goes down to:
vs 3+ 6, vs 6+ 14
Do I need a Furnace, i.e. how do I buff most efficiently?
Vigordust + 25%, + re 1s to hit +47%
Filth + 28%
Rabid +34%
Vigordust + re 1s + Rabid: 100%
This means that you pay 200pt for an additional 50% increase from the base value (on a 3+ prayer though), which certainly is an option, particularly as an alternative to a second Bell. Given how quickly this setup loses damage though, I would only consider it in a 2-Monk list, which will struggle quite a bit with certain opponents like OBR.
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@TALegion Your list is what I'd call pretty iconic (Thanquol, Clanrats, lots of Skryre), and a lot of people will naturally gravitate towards this. There are some problems:
a) Thanquol needs endless spells. His warscroll spell is flat out bad, and you don't want to waste a +2 wizard that costs 400 pt.
b) Cannons have a niche, which is shooting - to hit targets (e.g. Hagg Narr shrine with gryph feather charm is useless to target with Jezzails) and high price monsters, especially ethereal ones. The problem is that 2 and an Engineer sets you back 460 pt, while over the course of 4 turns (always overloading one, each lasting two turns) and always rolling 1s for your power level, you'll do 60 MW. Realistically, you'll have nothing worthwhile to shoot first turn and not always roll 1s, so half that seems likely. Investing that much leaves you very vulnerable against hordes and rush armies.
c) You need more bodies. 60 Clanrats just don't cut it with the amount of damage many fast armies can put out. If you get double turned, the game ends before you had your first real go.
d) Overseer of Destruction is only worth it if you plan to bring at least 3 Ratlings (preferably 4). They are the only weapon team that profits from this trait, which GW could have written down in the tome instead of this confusing keyword jungle.
e) Warpcog in mixed Skaven: I just can't see a place for it. Traditionally, what it has been used for was to provide a 1-drop alpha strike for your 9 fiends (it was risky, with a potential high reward). This isn't possible anymore. In mixed lists, you pay too dearly for the little benefit it provides, as almost everything is either grotesquly overtaxed, or has little to no effect. Arkhspark Voltik is the only worthwile one, as it makes your WLC somewhat reliable, but still not worth that amount of points. (Apologies to our Doomwheel aficionados, but I won't pay 320 pt tax for +3 to all moves).
These points out of the way, here is what I would run while keeping the theme and original list as intact as possible:
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Trait: Verminous Valour
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
40 x Clanrats (200)
40 x Clanrats (200)
20 x Clanrats (120)
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
15 x Skryre Acolytes (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)That's 1900 points, for the rest you want endless spells. With 100pt you can afford either WL Vortex or Geminids + Vermintide, whatever tickles your fancy. I do have an irrational dislike towards the Vortex, but there are a lot of people who had good success with and enjoy using it. If you do, Staff of rightful supremacy is a decent artefact choice as it allows an automatic dispell to move the location.
How to build Thanquol? That really depends on how many hordes and/or strike first/last armies you face. My advice is to magnetize the weapons, so you can test and change freely when changing builds.
Death Frenzy or Plague? Dependent on the Thanquol equipment and your typical opponents. DF is a good damage spell even with only 40 Clanrats (6.4 avg vs 4+ save, losing their size bonuses as early as possible), and can be a possible deterrent or at least draw out unbinds. I'd prefer it, unless you mainly fight OBR.
Good luck with this, may you gnaw on many bones and suck the sweet marrow of your enemies lifes!
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@Laststand The battle report was good fun. 3000 pt games always have this nice apocalyptic flavor. Generally, Log Cabin Gaming has a great atmosphere to their reports and it is nice to see the channel grow.
On 12/18/2019 at 12:57 PM, Umjammerlama said:Would people arm them with blades or stave and blades?
I created a blog post trying to answer questions that appeared so far, including the question of how to equip them.
On 12/18/2019 at 1:49 PM, Drcrabs said:SpoilerArch-Warlock (160)
- Trait: Overseer of Destruction
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
- Artifact: Skavenbrew
Plague Priest on Furnace (200)20 x Clanrats (120)
20 x Clanrats (120)
20 x Clanrats (120)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Blade & Woe Staves
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Blade & Woe Staves
20 x Skryre Acolytes (240)
4 x 1 Ratling Gun (240)list
If you have the models already, try out how much you like all the close range shooting. For my taste, going with double PM as well as double close range combo tends towards overkill and you might want to consider some longer range.
At the very least, I'd change the Skavenbrew to Ignax's Scales. Your AW is an essential buff piece for your shooting, and if there is one thing you don't starve for with this list, it is damage. 😊
22 hours ago, Gwendar said:Allegiance: Skaventide
Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer (140)
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
6 x Stormfiends (520)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 204
I somewhat considered dropping the Monks for 20 Gutter Runners + a Bridge for the Fiends but... yeah, Eshin still can't compete unfortunately. With the change to the Fiends it really just allows me to take a Grey Seer to Skitterleap an Engineer for WLV. An alternative to that is 6 Jezzails for hero sniping, but to be honest I can usually kill those same squishy 5-6 wound hero's with some decent rolls T1\2 with the WLV anyway and having the Grey Seer around for -1 to hit is nice to have.
I do occasionally take an AW with Balewind and Chain Lightning in my double Bell builds. As the Bell aura does damage 50% of the time, it tends to create a nice, although unreliable, amount of AoE pressure on non-monstrous heroes.
22 hours ago, Darkhan said:@Gwendar have you ever tried a Verminlord Deceiver with a gnawbomb? To get 40 monks behind enemy lines?
It's used occasionally with Fiends or PM, but compared to the bridge it does have disadvantage of being once per game and you "wasting" your artifact. It can most certainly catch your opponent of guard though, which is why these lists did have some success.
18 hours ago, Vesper said:Why do people keep saying you need 'full buffs' to make Acolytes worth it? You can easily get them up to 3s to hit and 4s to wound simply by having 30 of them with -2 and D3 damage. The only worry is that they might not be fast enough to get fully in range of what they want to kill. Even then, they're going to kill whatever they attack regardless.
The argument is not that Acolytes without MMMWP aren't good (they aren't great however), but rather that you miss out on too much. They do normally hit 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/4 = 4/16 of the time before armour. With MMMWP the equation changes to 3/4 x 3/4 = 9/16. It more than doubles the number of hits.
It's the same for Stormfiends. As they trade some damage for tankiness, it's usually preferred to buff them, as you invested so much more and to make them an efficient use of your points you want to maximize their effect.
As you pointed out, you could use Deranged Inventor as your command trait. This directly competes with Overseer of Destruction however, which for the same investment will net you more damage when going down the Ratling route.
Personally I always found large (>20) blocks of Acolytes too unwieldy, but that's primarily because I feel naked without at least 120 melee models. Hopefully you will find more success and fun with them!
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(30+ bonuses applied, damage per model)
Blades
Save Old Charge New Charge Old no charge New no charge
2 .46 .35 .31 .25
3 .83 .69 .56 .46
4 1.2 1.04 .8 .69
5 1.57 1.39 1.05 .93
6 1.94 1.74 1.3 1.16
- 2.22 2.08 1.48 1.39
Edit: the staff damage was missing the exploding 6s. The accurate data can be found here.
Thanks to Cosmicsheep to pointing this out.
(I did use https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/ created by . Marvelous work!)
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8 hours ago, Verminlord said:
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
20 x Giant Rats (120)
20 x Giant Rats (120)
2 x Rat Ogors (100)3 x Packmasters (60)
6 x Stormfiends (520)
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Fleshmeld Menagerie (160)
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)Stormfiends without Skryre buffs are a waste of points (maybe a bit harsh). With Moulder i feel that you have two options,
a) play the units you like in mixed Skaven. Typically this means that you choose your melee hammers from Moulder while still keeping some shooting, Clanrats and the option of Bell/Warpseer.
b) Fleshmeld 1/2 drop. If you go down this route, you should embrace the thing that's actually decent about it: possibly respawning large packs and buffing with heroes, Death Frenzy and Rabid Crown. Using CP's to bring back 10 Giant Rats is a waste.
Get groups of Rat Ogors/Wolf Rats/Giant Rats and focus on these.
As you have no way of increasing charges, the 9" charge form bridge, even with re-rolls, is only a 50-50 chance. Maybe try out cogs instead?
6 hours ago, Death1942 said:I genuinely don't understand what any of the assassins are supposed to do?
Sword of Judgment Deathmasters are an option. Not a reliable option, but it is a way to get use out of him.
Having used my ration of optimism for the day, I agree that some units definitely can't be used in the way that GW obviously intended them. At best, they provide some utility for the army, e.g. 5 Gutter Runners.
On 12/17/2019 at 11:20 AM, Darkhan said:
I could still sneak them to "act" like 9...one unit of 6 and one unit of 3, MMWP the 6 for rerolling everything, Deranged Inventor to make the 3 re-roll hits.I feel the better option is to use the 260 points to better accentuate the range you want to focus on. I.e. either go further long range with 6 Jezzails or a WLC or focus on short range with 20 Acolytes (assuming you get them into range, even with DI they'll do enough damage) or 3-4 Ratlings (overseer).
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Bombardier: one of the overall nerfs to the faction as every mixed list that didn't use an AW used a Bombardier. Now they will use an Engineer.
I only ever picked him over an AW to babysit a unit of Jezzails. Therefore, he got a shot off maybe once or twice per game and in most situations an Engineer would have been in range as well. He killed 8 skinks once though. More relevant for the Fiend lists that ran with two, as I they now miss out on some damage.
Bell/Warpseer: this is a more or less big nerf to pretty much every list. It definitely disincentivizes 4 Bell, 200 model lists, but for most creates a 20-40 point tax. They are still good at this price level, but many lists will probably go from two to one bells, depending on how much you have that is susceptible to battleshock and you care about.
As I will continue running two Bells, this means that I'll have to shift around endless spells a bit and probably try alternatives to Geminids.
Deceiver: the price increase is just a continuation of GW's vendetta against clan Eshin. It found some popularity recently, primarily as a Gnawhole vehicle to transport Monks or Fiends. I'm really puzzled by this decision.
Fiends: speaking of strange decisions, it's not as if 9 SF lists outperformed 6 SF lists. If anything the 6er lists were a bit more consistent, as the additional unit of Monks proved a greater buffer in case of being double turned by an alpha strike list.
My speculation would be that 9er lists proved too much of a negative play experience, as being double turned by such a list could mean a quick end to the game. However, the same would be true for every other high damage list out there. I'm sure reasons existed.
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I just wanted to congratulate you on your work, it's very impressive!
I normally do these calculations by hand, and I can definitely say that this is faster while at the same time giving an option to apply all the special modifications that a lot of other sites/apps don't provide. I'm looking forward to see how this work progresses.
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9 minutes ago, Laststand said:
I have had some success with units of 6 rat ogres and a master moulder close by. Their save is poor but they pack a nice punch. That is 400pts with the MM though and they really arnt worth taking in smaller units.
Wolf Rats. Do the approximately the same damage (on the charge), but with movement 12" and being less reliant on the Moulder buff. Actually, you don't need any buffs for them at all.
Before the PM warscroll release, I can definitely admit that I am awfully confused. Some changes make sense and are justified (Bell, Warpseer), some are perplexing (Deceiver, Bombardier but not Engineer, Stormfiends), but overall the gnawing question is: that's it?
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2 hours ago, gronnelg said:
@Skreech VerminkingThanks for the feedback. I thought that since I was getting stormvermin (and clanrats), then the clawlord would be nice. But as you see it, the clawlord doesn't add much to this list? I fear that the stormvermin will be ineffctive against mortek guards. In pretrifex I believe they get 3+ rerolling against melee? So even stormvermin buffed by the clawlord might not be enough.
What scares me the most are mortek crawlers though. With the special attacks he could take out insane amounts of clanrats and stormvermin. And with their regular shoots minor heroes aren't safe. Which is why I gave my clawlord verminous valor, and buffer my warlock bombardier to an arch-warlock with gryph feather charm. I need the arch warlock alive to buff my stormfiends! To some extent I guess the warpfire throwers work as DISTRACTION CARNIFEX for the crawlers. Possible letting other important units survive another turn.Try to approach this from the perspective of the OBR player. Pretty much everything that Skaven normally bring is really scary, except for Plague Monks, and Crawlers are the only real answer against most of the threats. They are a good unit that is exceptional against Skaven. In your list however, his one or two catapults have to: kill the AW, Warpfire throwers and SF. They also want to shoot the SV and maybe kill some Clanrats to protect objectives.
You can either just take the damage and ignore the catapults, or change your list in order take a counter unit (Doomwheel, Deceiver, Gutter Runners, Pistoleers, Warpgrinder...) and force him to put Guards there to protect it. If you put one or two offensive Gnawholes, depending on the scenario, that's already a lot of board space to protect for your opponent.
2 hours ago, gronnelg said:Guys - how do you feel about taking plague monks, without taking a plague furnace?
You can take a look at this damage table. Yes, prayers increase their damage by a lot, and it can put out a surprising number of mortal wounds. However, Bells are just great for their price and I prefer them both for the aura and thematic reasons.
Death Frenzy is the only spell you need from the lore of ruin, Warpgale or Plague are just nice things to have.
Both are popular options, but it's not mandatory as PM are great even without buffs.
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14 hours ago, Death1942 said:
Hobby question: I am considering diving into Skaven but was always daunted by the prospect of painting fur and a million clan rats. Anyone had an experience with the contrast paints? Does it speed up the process immensely and are the results good?
I only tried two contrast paints and didn't enjoy them. It always looked like I did a bad job with the base paint and I ended up spending more time than I normally would have applying highlighting and glazes.
My advice is similar to @Riff_Raff_Rascal , as you should see Clanrats as an opportunity to try different techniques etc. Also, try to approach it with a positive mentality. If you approach your infantry as a chore, it will be a chore. Try to look at the models, as even basic Clanrats have a lot of character and show all that is fun about Skaven. I always like to add a Judas-rat that stabs the leader in the back, just to remind me never to trust my subordinates.
Even if you make "mistakes", there is nothing preventing you from coming back later to change your models. I never thought that I actually improved as a painter until I closely examined my earlier works and spend some time with them.
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14 hours ago, Skavelynn said:
If plague monks get another points increase nerf, do you think we'll be seeing more stormvermin being played? Stormvermin getting their horde discount decreased to 420 or 400 would be nice too, I'm just kinda tired of seeing plague monks constantly 😅
Made a blog post about which units were picked in tournament lists since the summer. There aren't a whole lot of surprises, but I wanted to put my feelings it into somewhat accurate numbers. About half of our units are picked more than 5% of the time, a third more than 15%.
Plague monks (PM) are used in 81% of mixed Skaven lists, Stormvermin (SV) in 8%. The underutilized clans definitely need some help, Verminus among them. Reducing SV to 400-420, Clawhorde to 130 and the Clawlord to 90 or something along those lines would definitely make it more viable.
PM by comparison need a warscroll simplification (e.g. no more Bale-chimes), not a cost increase. Pure Pestilens is already on the weaker sides of Skaven builds and would hurt them overly much, without addressing the problems generally complained about: sorting a hundred dice into four piles.
As a word of caution however, because it isn't used in tournaments doesn't mean that a unit is bad. There is a lot of conservative thinking and herd mentality involved, as players generally don't want to lose and therefore err on the side of caution. Some units, like Warpfirethrowers, are good in certain matchups, bad in others. There isn't any point to bring them if more general options are worthwhile.
A small number of units have objectively good warscrolls, but have been forgotten for different reasons (Wolf Rats: highly priced resin models...).
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I always feel that I lack the CP to use both the Warbringer and Clawlord abilities. The only real generating ability comes from the Warpseer, and he needs them for himself.
A Masterclan battalion would be nice to help out ...😪
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16 hours ago, bitchparty said:
The battalion requires a Clawlord, not a CLAWLORD. The difference being that it requires the unit named 'Clawlord' and not a unit with the keyword CLAWLORD. It's not in capitals and bold, so it's referring to the unit rather than the keyword.
So no, you cannot use the Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror in Claw-Horde.
There are two arguments to be made here. First, the Warpcog Convocation does provide options as it requires a 'Warlock Engineer or Warlock Bombardier'. Therefore, if GW wanted to give the option to also provide a Clawlord on Brood Horror (CLoB), they would have specifically given the option.
The counterargument lies in the fact that for the abilities the keyword is used consistently, with the exception of the Fleshmeld Menagerie. There the Master Moulder is referenced not as a keyword, so it is required specifically as a unit. Would the Claw-Horde require a Clawlord and not allow a CLoB it would not use the keyword.
From this systematic interpretation i believe the case to be ambiguous, but in favor of sticking with the Organisation-box, and therefore not allowing the CLoB.
A teleological approach would lead us to the question as to why it should be forbidden. The goal is clearly to have a battalion with a CL that can use the gnash-gnaw command ability, which the CLoB can use. Even if we stick with the strict principle that only the units (not keywords) in the organisation tab are to be used, there is a case to be made of an implicit addition of the CLoB to it.
EDIT: To further add to this: the Monstrum Arcanum calls the unit 'Skaven Clawlord' (title) 'on Brood Horror' (sub-header). To quote the core rules page 15: ' If an entry is the title of a unit, any unit with that title can be used (you can ignore sub-headers under the title unless they are included in the entry for the unit).'
The fact that Forge World calls this a Skaven Clawlord instead of a Clawlord is part of their rather unique and seldomly adapted naming convention and only makes sense in a multi-faction book like this. I don't believe that this can be held against anybody using a CLoB as a Clawlord.
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4 hours ago, Coyote said:
Question - Just to be clear -for the Claw-Horde Battalion - Which requires 1 Clawlord
We cannot use the Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (keywords include Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror AND Clawlord) In the Battalion to substitute for the 100 pt Clawlord, right?
He has the CLAWLORD keyword, so yes, you can include him in the batallion.
2 hours ago, j0lt said:Looking at adding some clanrats to the new Battleforce (Skaven corrupting war-swarm) are there any auto includes after this if I dont want to go further down the plague route?
One or two full units of Plague Monks are the only real common denominator among competitive builds aside from Clanrats and battleshock-immunity options (Screaming Bell, Warpseer). Everything else depends on which direction you want to move into.
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3 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:
Had my first taste of Plague Monks this week. I proxied in 40 clanrats in a friendly game just to see what they were like before deciding whether to buy some. I’ve avoided using them before largely because of the massive number of dice rolls/pots and not wanting to be “that guy”
i was playing against night haunt, which helped somewhat since I could ignore the 6 toHit (night haunt are immune to rend) and I managed to get my unit in a tight squeeze where I couldn’t get the whole unit into combat, but I did take out a Mournghul in one round of combat (luckily I caused 2MW when he killed 8 of my monks). I used a unit of 20 clanrats as shield to take the mournghul’s charge before retreating them and charging into some chainrasps. Ultimately the chainrasps were then able to take out my monks thanks to his double turn and me having no battleshock immunity nearby.
on the whole I think I was happy with their performance and can see the potential. Maybe not an auto-include for me because I like to keep my friends 😂 but one to add to the shopping list 😁
I argued in this blog post that you can easily decide not to use Bale-chimes and still retain one of the most cost-efficient units of our roster. In most scenarios you lose ~8% damage against 4+ but only have to separate the 2-damage rolls. Particularly in my lists that are based on horde/magic and I run two units with Foetid Blades, I can't imagine going back to four piles. I love how they thematically fit my idea of a sea of fanatical rats surrounding bells.
We'll see how or if GW tries to handle the matter in the Winter FAQ, but particularly given recent releases of elite-infantry, there is no reason Stormvermin should remain at 450 points. With the notable exception of Death Frenzy there is nothing in the Skaven army that vastly increases their power level and would make it essential they are overcosted.
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Crawlers target unmodified bravery. Which leads to rather strange results at times, e.g. Giant Rats with their base bravery of 3 would lose 2/3 of their unit despite (if we assume a Moulder hero within range) having a bravery against battleshock tests of 12 as long as they remain over 30. The bravery system is a bit of a mess.
You'll have a hard time not getting value out of Crawlers against Skaven. Assuming 4 attacks with 2+/3+ that's 2.2 attacks hitting before armour save.
We'll see how it plays out and how popular the army becomes.
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Blade of Symmetry (+1 damage) is better than Ghyrstrike (+1 to hit and wound) as long as the Deceiver hasn't suffered 3 or more wounds or as long as you re-roll wound rolls via his command ability.
All the other weapon options (anraheit's Claw, Blade of Ending) are worse on average. They share the same problem with Sword of Judgement: they don't work if affected by - to hit and we lack options to provide + to hit. That being said, all of them are rather close and it will depend on the result of D3 rolls.
The general problem with putting damage artifacts on our heroes is that they don't profit a whole lot when compared with Vigordust Injector (or Rabid Crown for Moulder). Adding 2 - 3 to the damage of a Deceiver just doesn't compare to +1 to hit on Fiends, Monks, Stormvermin... even Clanrats in most situations.
Given that the 1k format is usually more casual, maybe don't bring 120+ wounds.
However what better opportunity to bring your 160 Clanrats?
AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion
in Skaven
Posted
As there are no Tzeentch players in my area that I know of, I can test this properly, but just from reading the book and writing lists there are some that I wouldn't know how to beat. At least with a Flamer list in some scenarios you can deploy further back, have your Fiends absorb damage etc.
However, how would I play against a Duplicituos Host- Changehost list with 2x20 Horrors? With destiny dice it's almost impossible not to roll enough for at least 1 9" auto-charge, quite possibly 2. Besides the fact that that's 120 shots that do an average of 20 damage vs 4+ save (with selfbuff) or annihilate a group of Monks, I'm effectively boxed in my starting zone by 200 wounds. The banner replenishes if I don't kill 20 Horrors on T1, or at least they are immune to battleshock. With the LoC and battalion that still leaves 640 points open.
No Skaven list that I've seen has enough damage output to get out of this before turn 3, probably even more as Tzeentch can deny important buffs like MMMWP. I don't want to sound negative, but I just can't quite figure out how I would win against this.