Ineffectual Clawlord
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Posts posted by Ineffectual Clawlord
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@Kimbo As things stand at the moment Skaven are in the fortunate position to actually have a lot of different lists that are all "viable" in the sense that they can take and have taken major tournaments. There are some archetypes to be sure, but even within them winning lists differ by a couple of hundred points. It comes down to testing and finding something that you enjoy playing! 😊
On 11/25/2019 at 2:34 PM, Chase said:What are your options on Thanquol? He definitely isn't the "competitive" choice,but he's beautiful and I want to field him. What do you guys think is the best possible list that includes Thanquol + 6-9 Fiends? I face nighthaunt, LoN, FEC, khorne, idk, ko regularly. We're somewhere between beerhammer and competitive
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Trait: Verminous Valour
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
6 x Stormfiends (520)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)This is what I would run. Thanquol really needs an impactful endless spell since his own is just so lackluster. Warpfire are the safer option since you don't need him in melee versus a lot of the first-strike-monsters like Gristlegore/Keepers etc. The drawback being that he will be suboptimal in a number of matchups, although shooting a unit of 5 with four Warpfires still averages 10 MW. If you can compensate in the hero-killing department then that is certainly an option. Braziers are a good choice as long as you keep him away from Eels and the aforementioned monsters and you'll be golden.
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@Kimbo Viable for "normal competitive"? Sure. Grand tournament competitive? You probably would want something less skewed. A pure shooting list has classic counters like Idoneth, so you would always gamble on not facing them. Given that you ask here I believe you are among the 99% of players who just want a list that performs well and works with their playstyle. 😉
Contrary to gronnelg I believe that it's entirely viable.
A list with 12 Jezzails obviously has them as their primary win condition. On average, with MMMWP (which you should use in this case) and Spark you can expect 6 MW and 13 W against 4+. They advantage over 9 Jezzails lies in reliability since you can shoot-kill a Keeper or something comparable with 95% accuracy, whereas with 9 it's a toss up. They also provide a solid answer against other shooting armies since you can outrange or with Gnawholes outposition them.
I perceive cannons as an insurance against 3+ ethereals (Mawcrusher, Vampire Lord, Frostlord) and as a support sniper. With 12 Jezzails you want to remove hammers, not waste shots on supporters as damage drops off drastically and you will inevitably lose damage when splitting shots.
The Deceiver is a good tech option against potential counters like Mortek Crawlers and generally as a really good tech option against shooting. Personally I would build it with Ghyrstrike to make his output more reliable and pair it with Gravetide (my preference) or Pendulum.
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Verminlord Deceiver (300)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
12 x Warplock Jezzails (560)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)This would be the list I would take keeping the core idea intact, but of course you can reduce the Clanrats back to 20s and take other options. An Archwarlock to get more aoe MW, a Doomwheel, Ratling Guns etc.
The major difference to e.g. Shootcast, who have a different commitment to a single unit, is the extra 100 bodies on the field which make lists like this so oppressive on objectives.
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Ah, Doom-Flayers. Inexorable proof that not everything is fine in Skavenland. Some warscrolls have a goal but fail to achieve it, like rat swarms. They at the very least know what they want to be when they grow up. A problem fixable with points.
Doom-Flayers just don't have a goal. Folk legends and wild-haired prophets speak of times when they roamed across the lands and mutilated man-things. But... for 60 points, on the charge and overloaded (1/3 chance to blow itself up) it's 7 attacks do 2.7 mean damage vs 4+. Even with MMMWP you only reach 4.
4. That's the same damage as 60 points of Clanrats with swords, hardly destroyers of worlds. At the same time you pay 4 times as much per wound on the model. Investing MMMWP on a Ratling Gun (plus a spark to be fair) you get 12.3 mean damage. Three times as much. From range.
Sure, you might say. They don't hit hard, can't take a punch and increase my drops since I can't even stack them. But they are fast! They are warpstone-crazed bikers! Well, 2d6 movement ....
Maybe cutting down the cost to 30 and giving the option to take them in a unit of 3 so you could buff would fix them, but even then I remain skeptical. This unit needs a rework. I'd love them to have an auto-destruct overload mechanism where they increase their speed to 3d6 but they explode for d3 MW within 3" a the end of combat. This would at the very least make them fun.
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On 11/15/2019 at 9:03 AM, gronnelg said:
As Skaven we usually get outdropped. For me that has typically meant I'm made to go first. How do you guys work around going first, and the possibility of your opponent getting the double from 1st to 2nd round?
When writing mixed lists you will (almost) always get outdropped. Embrace it! Gutter Runners, Ratlings etc. are all good options to get them higher. I even played with the idea of splitting my Jezzails in lists where I don't use MMMWP. Dropping a backline screen, a unit in reserve and two Ratlings means I gave nothing of worth away of how I will position my essential units whereas most opponents with battalions have given away their battle plan.
If you have something to do on your first turn then this is a huge advantage since you can adjust whatever plan you have for the scenario.
Some ideas:
- Buffs: we only have Death Frenzy (maybe Shield on a Balewind-Warlock if you can afford to bait with it). If your plan doesn't rely on your Monks you can try to bait them with it and get short range shooters in range.
- Gnawholes: teleporting Jezzails from one corner to the other (setups are not moves, they retain their re-rolls) is a classic. Same with a Doomwheel teleported on the side so it can potentially pressure a weak home point on turn 2. Skitterleap-Vortex-Gnawhole if of course an option but this works with a whole bunch of spells, Geminids in particular can partially cripple alpha strike lists.
- Walls: modifying the field with Palisade, Gravetide, Vermintide to screen your screen. To clarify for newer players: endless spells are friendly models so you cannot move across their base (unless flying) and therefore "block" parts of the board.
- If you fear a double turn T1-T2 then setting up Geminids in the middle of the board so it can hit most of their line while not being in range of your units in case they give it to you.
- Modify your screens etc. in case you made a mistake during deployment.
Hard to give general advice without lists, especially since your options are so scenario dependent. A good start is to practice deploying your list. When already in game try to understand your opponents list and ask them what units do so you can adjust and prepare.
Just remember that taking the first double is a gambit on their part. If they do not cripple you with it, from now on you can dictate the next double.
Finally, get more Clanrats and practice screening/movement. They work differently than most units in this game as they feel a bit like a logic puzzle. How can i minimize the models that are in combat while getting the most enemy units in combat? Always think about where you can retreat to. Charge phase is just another movement phase. Measure where the closes enemy unit is so you can pile in away from the unit you are in combat with.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfFlVDClJk&t=2527s
Dawn Brewer showcases most of these things in this battle report. Maybe this is not entirely pertinent to the question but it feels noteworthy that you should use your blockers as blockers while also improving your map position.
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@Aelford Stormvermin profit heavily from the size bonuses, so you want to have a safety net since they will get focused heavily. 40 is the way to go.
I love your enthusiasm for Ratlings, but particularly for your second list I'd advise to drop one in addition to the Vermin to get 40 extra Clanrats in. Overseer of Destruction will provide a solid damage increase in both lists. If you want your AW to be tankier, dropping Vigordust for Ignax's Scales is an option.
Burning Head is a matter of taste, I rate the other low cost endless spells higher, Suffocating Gravetide in particular.
Hard to say what kind of build will be successful in the future. The most common answer seems playing around a 40-man Mortek Guard block in conjunction with lots of support characters as well as a Crawler. For Fiends builds not much adaption will be necessary. The guard re-roll only works in melee, Fiends (or Acolytes) will wipe them without much thought.
Jezzail heavy builds have to be afraid of the Crawler because of their base bravery of 4. Slaying half of your unit is ... unpleasant. You can play around this with Gnawhole positioning as well as the fact that they will outdrop you. Depending on where they set up you can just choose the other side, or try to bait the cauldron with Plague Monks (one of the few matchups where they are lackluster). The problem with the Crawler is that trying to whittle it down will make the special shots fare more likely to happen. 9 Jezzails (or 6 SF) can't do it reliably, whereas 12 can.
Another option is to use either Gutter Runners (or better: Pistoleers), a Deceiver or a Doom Wheel to pressure it.
Other than the Crawler and Petrifex-Guards it's just another death faction. Look at their spell table, kill heroes.
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2 hours ago, States said:
But supreme manipulator states "after this general uses a command ability". Skilled manipulator is any masterclan.
Only thanquol would have the re-roll, the rest would have the 5+ roll, no?
Good catch, you are absolutely right! Aetherquartz works for every CP spent, skilled manipulator for every usage by a masterclan hero.
This changes the math quite a bit, but the general routine is still the same. I never played the build myself but rather saw that some people had success with it and believe it to be a clever mechanic. Since you always need different heroes for Thanquol's CA it require quite a bit of bookkeeping.
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@Kimbo Thankfully the Skaven SC is insanely useful for starting an army. This is 1620 pt and the only thing you need are 4 boxes of Clanrats (they will always come in handy). The Bombardier can be converted from pretty much anything as long as you give him something that looks like a rocket, e.g. mine from a Cannon kitSpoiler
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
Warlock Bombardier (100) (or Arch-Warlock or Engineer if you don't want to convert)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
20 x Clanrats (120)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)From here you can just move in any direction really. Remove 1 Cannon and put 6 Stormfiends in and you have a balanced tournament list etc. Really solid foundation.
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@States You need supreme manipulator, which gives 5/9 command points (CP) back whenever a masterclan hero uses a command ability (CA). Aetherquartz broosh as your artifact gives you 1/3 CP back whenever a CP is spent.
You start with Thanquol's CA, which gives you back 1/3 + 5/9 = 8/9.
If you use 1 of the free CA's you get 5/9 back, for 2 CA's 10/9, for 3 15/9. So in total if you use two you earn 1 CP for each time Thanquol uses his CA.
Note that you can always use Inspiring Presence since it gives immunity but has no other requirements. A charge doesn't have to be undertaken, so you can just re-roll it whenever a unit is in range.
The reason you amass these CP's is to spend them on the Clawlord on Brood Horror. Contrary to the regular Clawlord his CA doesn't have any restriction on how often you can use it on a unit. 😊
I saw a list a couple (30? 40?) pages back from a tournament in the US where a lad did quite well with it. If you build lists that meet all the requirements you notice that you are incredibly stretched for points because you need some heavy point sinks: Thanquol, 2-3 masterclan heroes, CLoBH, probably Stormvermin. Once any of the heroes die, the combo starts to lose effectiveness or in the case of the CLoBH crumbles entirely. Also a turn 1 alpha strike list that boxes you in and forces you to use the CP's for extra attacks instead of spending them on Thanquol also breaks the combo.
@Gwendar I don't play CoS but some lists look really fun and tempting, like pistoleer/demigryph cav builds. Bridge synergizes so splendidly with most of the shooters that I believe this will prove the most effective (contrary to the GF artillery builds which just have a very sad damage output by comparison). HH just doesn't seem frightening enough as a pure magic list.
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On 10/29/2019 at 8:41 AM, Aelford said:
What are your thoughts on this list? It should be quite fun competing in all the phases.
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Plague
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Brutal Fury
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
40 x Stormvermin (450)
20 x Clanrats (120)
20 x Clanrats (120)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
The Burning Head (30)It has a stable core with double bell etc. and can definitely work.
I personally wouldn't play Stormvermin in a tournament unless they come down 50 points. The difference to Plague Monks in terms of efficiency is just too great. I wouldn't want to discourage you from trying them yourself though! They are great models, Verminous based builds have a unique kind of flair and are aesthetically pleasing.
I'm not sure why you included Burning Head. With 30 points you could also get Palisade or Gravetide and Maelstrom, which provide better utility. Brutal Fury is debatable and usually the go to trait for Warbringers. It might surprise some people if he actually gets to fight, but overall Verminous Valour is just more beneficial if you want to use the Clawlord as a buff piece.
Overall Clan Verminous unfortunately isn't all that competitive at the moment. There are some lists like the Thanquol - Clawlord on Brood Horror command point spam with a dozen attacks on your Stormvermin (or Clanrats: if you roll 300 dice you will inevitably do damage). I fear that it would need a rework of the Clawhorde battalion and Stormvermin cost reduction. They are however still way ahead of Moulder and in particular Eshin as a stand alone clan.
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Since a lot of new battletomes appeared recently, how do people find our new competitors from a Skaven perspective? Personally all the new destruction books don't change a whole lot in terms of gameplay. If your list could handle an aggressive melee army like Slanesh before, it can do well against Warclans/Mawtribes as well.
Time will tell what Cities lists will actually be good since they have so many possible playstyles. The only thing I'm really afraid of are Mortek Crawlers. Taking out Engineers or generally all our support characters as well as decimating things with low bravery. Having half of my Jezzails slain with a 42" threat range is ... annoying. I'm not sure how popular this unit and army will be but it might require some changes to lists (e.g. Palisade, Deceiver).
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@Congratz Good question!
1 Fiend vs 4+ AR:
Doomflayer (+1 to hit) 3.7
+MMMWP 5.8
Shock gauntlets 3.3
+MMMWP (normal) 5.3
(fishing for 6s) 6.3
Grinderfist 2.2
+ MMMWP 4.4
Clubbing Blows (Vigordust + MMMWP) 3.2
Yes, not a whole lot of difference. In particular both options are very unreliable in their output. I love the shock gauntlet mechanics, but use the Doomflayer since it looks absolutely beastly! 😊
As @KingOfSuede said, in the common ranged SF setup you want to assign the wounds to the melee guys and generally stay out of range. Nonetheless you shouldn't be afraid to charge with SF if you can ensure that you strike first, are safe next turn and can shoot freely.
Assuming you get 6 SF into combat (2 shock, rest ranged) that's ~25 damage vs 4+ AR. In this situation i like to calculate with ~10 damage, just to be on the safest of sides.
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30 minutes ago, Darkhan said:
Used it 8 times or something. It's pretty cool. People tend to ignore the little warlock buffer + rattlers if you have some other big threats on the board, until they come in range and they are like WTF 10 DMG?! And that just came from 1 of the 3:D
Yes, it's what you could fancily call "physical representation of threat". Everybody can see that Stormfiends mean you harm: 3 times as high as an ordinary clanrat, posing like destroyers of worlds etc. I have mine standing in poison puddles and over the bodies of man-things. Ratling guns are just silly little people practicing teamwork. Nothing to see there!
Concerning the question of Overseer of Destruction: I don't like it overly much. It's an efficient trait, but I would only pick it if I can't spare MMMWP on a Ratling (e.g. when I run them in conjunction with Fiends or Acolytes).
3 Ratlings with Overseer + Spark + Overload vs. 4+ AR, 7 shots each: 9.3 x 3 = 27.9
2 Ratlings + Spark + Overload vs. 4+ AR, 7 shots + 1 with MMMWP = 2 x 6.2 + 12.4 = 24.8
(3 with Oversser, 1 with MMMWP = 27.9 + 12.4 = 40.3 )
To be effective you really want to use it on 3. Given the rate that these little workers die, you need 4 (rather 5). Personally that's too much investment for the balanced lists that I enjoy playing.
I want to try this army once I have some more Ratlings and one more Wheel
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Trait: Overseer of Destruction
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Warp Lightning Shield
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Verminlord Warpseer (300)
40 x Clanrats (200)
40 x Clanrats (200)
40 x Clanrats (200)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
Doomwheel (160)
Doomwheel (160)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Prismatic Palisade (30)
Malevolent Maelstrom (10) -
Since our tome is quite dauntingly complex and every couple of pages the same questions pop up, I've decided to start a blog where I want to compile information for the glory of the horned one. Skaven Supremacy through rational Analysis 😉
The first part is about our shooting units - because it's the most popular question. I wanted to keep the character of a reference sheet with my opinion, additional information etc. in spoilers. The content is the base damage and how it develops with buffs, as well as how point efficient the units are.
I do hope this helps people in deciding which units to pick (hint: Ratling guns !) and saves some time.
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Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- General
- Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
Total: 1300 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119This would be a solid starting block that can still develop into all different directions and can support a lot of the whackier Skryre choices. Whacky meaning that they have random values for attack or movement (e.g. Doomwheel) and are therefore rarely seen in competitive lists.You could add 9 Jezzails and a Cannon in this list for example and use your Fiends as linebackers. Or you add another unit of Fiends, a Soulscream bridge and 2 Doomwheels to go aggressive.This is a list that features the stuff you want the most:
Leaders
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- General
- Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
War Machines
Doomwheel (160)
Doomwheel (160)
Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Vermintide (40)
Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 136
Still a lot you can change there, for example take the Fulminator instead of the Vigordust Injector. Send one of the Wheels through a Warphole and fulminate the other.-
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I love Jezzails. They do reliable damage with a 36'' threat range. However it is not a whole lot of damage. Unlike Stormfiends where an entire build revolves around them (the Skryre 1drop list from the London GT is essentially 9 Fiends + tax/necessary support), Jezzails don't have the output to win a game by themselves. It is best to consider them a support unit that eliminates certain threats so your other win conditions become more likely.
9 Jezzails against 4+ armour, with spark:
4++/3+ 4.5 MW + 7.5 W = 12
The problem is look out sir,
5++/3+ 5 MW + 4.2 W = 9.2
There are two options to decrease the negative effects:
MMMWP 5++/3++ 5 MW + 5 W =10
Vigordust 4++/3+ 4.5 MW + 7.5 W = 12
For 100 points against 4+ armour they average 2.9 damage (base + spark) or 3.4 with MMMWP. In other words, they aren't efficient because range costs a lot in AoS.
Jezzails are natural best buddies with our short range shooters like Acolytes or Ratling Guns. Both are amazingly points efficient if you take the buffs into account (Acolytes: 11.7 dam per 100 points, Ratling with MMMWP: 20.7).
MMMWP + spark more than triples the damage of acolytes and overlaps nicely with buffing the Jezzails first turn before keeping it ready for the acolytes.
If you don't like the unreliability of Ratlings or don't want to convert Acolytes, you can always run 80 Monks like everybody else. Please practice rolling dice efficiently beforehand though.
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9 Stormfiends against 4+ amour. Spark is always included. "Normal result" is what you can expect 7 out of 10 rolls. (95% confidence intervals tend to be so wide that you can't gauge it properly in game.) 4++ means that you can re-roll.
Launchers:
4+/4+ 5-7 (.7 per shot)
4++/4++ 13-17 (1.7 per shot)
3++/4++ 16-20 ( 2 per shot)
Ratling: 27 shots 36 shots
4+/3+ 12 (.44 per shot) 16 (.44 per shot)
4++/3++ 24 (.9 per shot) 32 (.9 per shot)
3++/3++ 28.4 (1.1 per shot) 38 (1.1 per shot)
When splitting shots there is no answer to be found in math, but as a risk averse player myself I'd advise not to be too greedy and prioritize. What do you really need to kill? What happens if you don't kill it?
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@swarmofseals This is a more cohesive argument than I could have made!
I use my spreadsheets to compare units that have a similar capacity to solve a problem for me, e.g. how do I take out a key threat on T1? Then a comparison between Jezzails - WLC - Stormfiends is very enlightening. However there are aspects that can shift all this again (will line of sight be a problem? Point for the Fiends).
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Q: Thanquol’s Warpstone Addiction ability and the Grey Seer’s Warpstone Tokens ability say that the roll cannot be re-rolled or modified. Can you re-roll or modify the 2D6 roll once you have removed one of the three dice?A: No.
Who is the best caster for the Vortex? (casting value8)
Arch-Warlock: chance to succeed with re-roll: 65.98 %
+ Gnawhole: 82.64 %
Grey Seer: Warpstone Token: 68.06 %
Thanquol: base +2: 72.22 %
+ Gnawhole: 83.33 %
Warpstone Addiction: 68.06 %
Skreech Verminking: KoftA + Gnawhole: 72.22 %
How successful is the Skitterleap-Vortex-Gnawhole-combo?
Thanquol isn't involved due to weight constraints, Skreetch prefers to plot in the shadows outside of popularity.
Both GS as well as AW have the arcane bonus, AW uses a spark: 68.86 %
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What would it need to make Thanquol popular again?
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Spoiler4 hours ago, Aelford said:
Hi there. Just building my list now to be as versatile as possible. Here it is-
Leaders
Verminlord Warpseer (300)
- General
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone
Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (180)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Verminlord Warbringer (280)
Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
Units
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 1x Icon of Pestilence
- 1x Contagion Banner
- 1x Doom Gongs
- 1x Bale Chimes
Endless Spells / Terrain
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Total: 2000 / 2000
I’m just looking at any ways to improve it. I could drop the Arch-Warlock down to a Bombardier and take another endless spell? Maybe Pallisade? I’m also considering changing the Suspious Stone on the Warpseer to the Aetherquartz Brooch to get these clanrats in a frenzy!
What are your thoughts?
MMMWP has a 2/3 chance to kill a Jezzail. With bravery 4 and a point cost of 47 that is daunting. Giving them a spark when in range for a ~50% damage increase is definitely worthwhile though.
I would cut the Warbringer. His spell is great but a casting value of 7 means a 58 % chance to cast it. Since you can't park him next to a gnawhole or give any other casting bonuses it is too unreliable for my taste. Other than that his buff is not that great. You could use the the new command abilities if you find excess CP's, but they are pretty pitiful as well.
280 points would provide a Grey seer (140) with Death Frenzy and extra Jezzails (140) and you could change the spell on the Bombardier to Chain Warp Lightning or get rid of him altogether.
Getting rid of the Warbringer and either 20 Clanrats or the Brood Horrow upgrades would allow you to get in 15 Acolytes (who profit incredibly from MMMWP + Spark) for 180 as well as a Grey Seer (140) and some extra endless spells. Or 3 Ratlings with or without Overseer of Destruction.
Skaven just have so many great options!
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@swarmofseals Interesting, I worked on a similar spreadsheet for points efficiency. Did you find yours helpful? Personally I felt that every ratio calculated came with a large number of caveats. Given the sheer complexity of game situations, different matchups etc. that I think there are very few bad units per se (looking at you Doom Flayers!) and that the point efficiency didn't further my evaluation.
As an example the Arch Warlock: the 3+ save itself shows up in my survivability-efficiency but it is even more valuable when he has Overseer of Destruction/ Vigordust/ only MMMWP-caster. Additionally his re-roll to cast and dispell. So in the end I had a number, but also a vast amount of extra notes for the units and aspects that I couldn't properly put in numbers.
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To add something that might be of value to some, here are the chances to kill yourself with clan Skryre:
- WLC: ~ 12% on first turn (pretty much guaranteed on 2nd)
- Grey Seer/Thanquol: 9,72%
- Arch-Warlock spell: if re-roll 17.6% to fail. D3D6 equals a 61.42 % to kill him outright.
- with a +1 bonus to cast he has a 7.8 % chance to fail (in case anybody wants to go for an overloaded spell portal to start the game 😉)
- Warlocks: if re-roll 2.8 % to fail, with a 1/3 chance to die. 0.7 % chance if +1 to cast.
- Both also fail if unbound though.
- Doom Wheel: 16.7 %, with a 41.7% die immediately.
- Ratling Guns: 16.7 %
- Warpfire: 33.3%
- Flayers: 33.3% (doubles and 7 is just a fancy way of saying 1/3...)
- Bombardier/Spark/Stormcage etc. 1/6. Just for completion.
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Agreeing with everybody, Stormvermin have already great damage output and don't need additional buffs. Not that an additional attack hurts them though...
They also have the advantage of retreat + charge, so they can't be easily tarpitted and are not reliant upon their charge bonus to do insane damage. They are just reliable servants of the Horned One.
But, they are 450 pt for a full unit, so you want to get the maximum out of them. This means that they profit heavily from some defensive support. Not the Skaven forte (life is cheap and all that...).
- to hit from Wither or Geminids is often underestimated:
If you assume an attack profile of 4+/4+, this means that 1/4 of the attacks are successful. Wither turns this into 5+/4+, so 1/6 of attacks are successful. The chance is reduced from 25 to 16.7 % or in other words, 1/3 less damage.
For an attack profile of 3+/3+ this means a reduction from 44.4 to 33.3 % or 1/4 less damage.
Compare this to Mystic Shield: you re-roll 1/6 of your save rolls, so the chance to negate increased from 50 to 58.3 %. This assumes no rend. With rend 2 the chance to negate increases from 16.7 to 19.4 %. (Or i could have just said that it always increases by 1/6th of the original chance to save)
Some other ideas to increase their survivability:
- Prismatic Palisade to block visibility against shooting lists;
- Malevolent Maelstrom is actually great against most armies but can help out prevent MW on your Stormvermin.
- Screening them with Clanrats.
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To give an idea of the comparison to clan Verminus:
Stormvermin:
- Unbuffed .67
- 30+ 1.11
- Gnash-gnaw + 30+ 1.67
Clanrats: Swords Spears
- Unbuffed .25 .17
- 30+ .44 .33
- Gnash-gnaw + 30+ .89 .67
Assuming a unit of 40 Stormvermin in 4 rows of 10:
30 attacks = 33.3 successful attacks, 50.1 with Gnash-gnaw.
For Clanrats:
20 swords = 8.8 successful attacks, 17.8 with Gnash-gnaw.
30 spears = 9.9 successful attacks, 20.1 with Gnash-gnaw.
And yes, I've done these calculations for most of the units in the book. 😉
Due to work I'm stranded far off civilization and won't be able to play for over a year. Which does give me time to start painting a Skaven army and play around with the battletome.
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Foetid Blades:
- Unbuffed .75 charge 1.13
- 30+ 1.19 charge 1.78
- Vigordust + 30+ 1.3 charge 1.94
- Filth-filth 1.13 charge 1.69
- Rabid-rabid 1.13 charge 1.5
- Filth + 30+ 1.58 charge 2.37
- Rabid + 30+ 1.78 charge 2.37
- Everything 3.46
Blade and Staff:
- Unbuffed .67 charge 1.08
- 30+ 1.22 charge 2
- Vigordust + 30+ 1.53 charge 2.5
- Filth-filth 1.08 charge 1.69
- Rabid-rabid 1.08 charge 1.5
- Filth + 30+ 1.69 charge 2.78
- Rabid + 30+ 2 charge 2.78
- Everything 4.84
Lists the successful attacks per model attacking. Not included are the special rules for rolls of 6 (rend, damage) and Bringer-of-the-Word. To calculate the average wounds just multiply the result with the armor coefficient (e.g. for a 6+ save multiply successful hits with 5/6 since on average 1 out of 6 attacks will be saved against) and you'll be in the right ballpark.
To give an idea about the damage, assume 40 monks in 4 rows of 10.
20 Blades attacks:
- 30+ 23.8 charge 35.6
- Everything 69.2
20 Blades + 10 extra staff attacks:
- 30+ 27.7 charge 46.7
- Everything 115.6
The advantage of double blades (that doesn't show up here since I didn't list confidence intervals [i.e. usually a range where 95 % of results lie] because I'm not a madman) is that you re-roll hit rolls, so the deviation is lower. Meaning that you reduce the risk of a bad roll. If you combine it with Filth-Filth you achieve very stable damage as far as AoS works.
What also shows is that super-buffing plague monks is in the vast majority of cases an exercise in overkill. To destroy a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist with ethereal amulet for example you need 28 successful attacks. It is tempting to imagine outright killing a unit of 60 Stabbaz, but for the vast majority of targets in the game you will waste damage.
Getting them in combat with their 30 man bonus intact is at the heart of the issue. As long as you have battleshock immunity, the best way to buff plague monks is to bring more plague monks.
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AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion
in Skaven
Posted
Concerning the whole Deceiver vs Warpseer debate, why is this even a question? Both fulfill entirely different roles in an army. You pick a Warpseer if you want a tanky centerpiece that gives battleshock immunity. That's what he does, and he does it well, mind you .
The Deceiver is one of the really mobile pieces we have. What you do with him depends on what you need doing. I only mentioned counter-shooting because that's what I've been thinking about lately with regards to players I regularly face who make me adapt my lists that are mainly designed to compete with aggressive melee armies (who dominate tournaments for the most part).
The apparent use would of course be to target heroes, him being an assassin and all that. However I believe we have so many options to snipe or use mortal wounds against support heroes. Rather he can do a reliable 5d3 damage against everything, unlike the SoJ Corruptor who can essentially fight nothing but heroes and monsters. To take a current example: Bonereapers defend objectives with 10 Guard, who for most melee attackers prove a daunting task. 3 rend on the Deceiver turns them into a 6+ re-rollable with additional MW from Gravetide or Pendulum.
A 6" charge re-rollable equals a 92% chance to succeed, compared to the usual 50-50 with a 9" re-rollable.
To make my final point: Deceivers can be invaluable on the scenarios with wonkier mechanics, the orb moving away from you every round for example.
He is by no means an auto-include in most lists, but he is by god no off-meta pick or overpriced.