Kasper

The power of the Glottkin comes from denying your opponent battle tactics. Wants Broken Ranks? Charge with something else and tie the enemy unit up. Slay the Warlord? Get that objective? Etc. etc. Thats imo the reason why hes priced so high. He punches pretty well and is effective 30 wounds which is a lot. Yes its possible to play around him by being outside of range, but you can put the Glottkin in an area that denies so much space. You can be super aggressive with him with a couple of nearby units since hes *almost* immune to melee combat due to you being able to deny charges or decide what gets into combat with what. Pairing him with either 10 PBs to tag multiple units and preventing them from charging or simply a single BoN is really strong imo. The cool thing with tagging multiple units is that the opponent isnt allowed to do a pile-in since they havent charged, assuming unit A fights and you start removing models from unit B or C so they are no longer within 3" of your unit.

I think ultimately our complains are a product of us being super invested and passionate about this hobby and its generally because we wanted something to be just a tad better. Can it ever be perfect? Likely not as we all have different taste and have different opinions. A tome will never receive 100% positivity because of this. Its also hard not to glance over at other books and think "how come they got this but we couldnt?". Orruk Warclans - The entire Ironjawz section is almost perfect except for internal balance, which is kinda bad considering how few warscrolls there are in the army. Kruleboyz are pigeonholed into Boltboyz spam due to lack of cheap battleline options and Bonesplitterz were stripped of a lot of fun and tricky things that made them enjoyable to play on the table. 2/3 factions in the book are basically a bit "meh" hence thats the overall feeling. Maggotkin of Nurgle - At first glance some aspects of the book are very thematic with how you would imagine Nurgle to play on the table which is fun overall, but its clear to see that the book is suffering from some last minute design choices. This becomes more apparent as you dig into the book and play games, but there were obviously made some serious cuts. Is the army fun to play? Sure, but there are things that could have been so much more like the whole Disease system. Some playtesters leaked that the Great Unclean One/Rotigus were absolutely beasts and spewed MWs all over the place, but the current version of both are very lackluster and the general consensus is that neither are really worth playing and especially at almost 500 pts. each. Am I happy for the new Nurgle book? Yes absolutely and Im having a blast despite my complaints, but I would have preferred if it was delayed another half a year or whatever but things werent halfassed and instead the new design choices were fleshed out properly. It feels rushed unfortunately which is just a bad feeling after having waited so long because the likelihood of a new book coming within 3-4 years is next to zero.

I feel like this is a different conversation though. Initially it sounded like you found the 3 different mechanics to be too mentally taxing which kinda boggled my mind since other armies have tons more stuff going on/keeping track of. I do agree with your points though. Summoning feels OK and sometimes a bit much if not for our units being a wee bit overcosted. How you generate summoning points does feel a bit "meh" imo, like theres very little involvement in how you gain summoning points - Its basically just about territories and obviously you can opt to deepstrike for +3 and keep a guy wholly within your own etc. Overall I dont feel like I can make a real difference here. It just passively happens. Disease points do feel like a straight up worse MW mechanic. I wouldnt necessarily call it a "fun" mechanic to keep track of, but IMO it isnt a huge burden, especially if your opponent assists with flipping D10 dice or whatever you use as you roll to hit etc. Theres not a ton of engagement here from me either and it essentially is just some extra delayed damage at the end of a round that passively happens by and large. The wheel is weird. Its entirely random what happens at round 1. Some of the effects are insanely powerful if hit at the correct timing and against certain armies. This might explain why there is no mechanic that allows you to mess with the wheel (except a single command trait). But it again creates a situation that is out of my hands - Sometimes it lands right and its a huge power spike, other times its almost worthless. The effects are also super varying in how powerful they are. Like getting the 1 dice per battle round and on a 4+ you gain a summoning point is ****** the first turn compared to having the anti-pile in effect on your entire army the turn your melee opponent is about to charge you.

Honestly this is not an issue at all. Without being disrespectful, if this is difficult to keep track of I dont understand how you would be able to play basically any other army that has a lot more going on for them in the hero phase etc. Nurgle got almost no buffs or other things to keep track of. Once your opponent has played against Disease a couple of times he can easily assist with counting up disease tokens while you do hit rolls. Otherwise it pretty much only happens at the end of the movement and end of combat. Summoning points is really fast and only happens at the start of the hero phase anyways and you should already ahead of time know if you are getting for your territory and/or your opponent's etc. The wheel you do before rolling for priority and it only ever moves forward, theres no thought going into it unlike previously where you could switch it around. But yeah I agree that new books should aim to not be S-tier books and instead aim to be around the fat middle. You can say what you want about the book being thematic but at the end of the day you arent having fun if your book is significantly worse than other people. I can understand people not being super satisfied with the Nurgle book after seeing how powerful both Ironjawz and SCE are (largely Fulminators and Longstrikes, sure).

Its fun to play on the table and somewhat durable. The book got some tricks but I worry as people get experienced with it they will be able to easily outplay those tricks. This is nowhere near S-tier book but is probably around the upper part of the fat middle of armies. The army is slow, doesnt have serious punch outside of a couple of heroes (Glottkin and Maggoth Lords) and even then it is nowhere near Fulminator-level damage and is really bad at spell casting.

Im really liking this list below - Either play it in Befouling or Drowned Men to meet battleline requirements, although either subfaction is essentially worthless for you. Thats another thing with our book - I have felt that it really doesnt matter what subfaction you take. None of the benefits are really that good (I guess Drowned Men could be used if you want to try and alpha the opponent with mass Pusgoyles?) so sadly all they are is a means to meet the battleline requirement for me. LeadersThe Glottkin (700)Orghotts Daemonspew (300)Gutrot Spume (170)Battleline10 x Plaguebearers (150)1 x Beasts of Nurgle (110)1 x Beasts of Nurgle (110)Units2 x Pusgoyle Blightlords (220)2 x Pusgoyle Blightlords (220)Total: 1980 / 2000 Basically you have Glottkin as a single drop (typically the chosen general as well) with the rest in a battle regiment.

Generally these forums are not what they used to be and people largely visit them just to lurk around general/spoiler threads. There has pretty much always been pretty silent when it comes to the army subforums. I have played around 10 games on TTS with the new book but all mostly Glottkin variations. These are my thoughts so far: Rotigus is way too expensive at 495 considering his spell is only D3 MWs (the app is wrong). So first off you have to roll a 7+ (with a reroll, sure), then you need to roll 5+ to generate targets and then you need to roll D3 MWs. If it was flat 3 MWs I could see him maybe being played, but right now he sticks to the theme of the book - Jump through many hoops for a medicore reward, that sucks. Our casting in general is kinda meh - A lot of the spells are being cast on a 7+ or they require you to jump through some weird hoops for the spell to even work after the opponent has failed to unbind you. This is really bad IMO and it means dabbling into magic isnt worth it despite there being some OK mortal spells (if you didnt have to jump through various hoops). There is nowhere to get +casting unless Rot Coven at which point you have to spend 400 pts on 3 little 5 wound dudes that all have to stand together. Rancid spell is absolutely insane against big units but the current meta is about monsters and elite units so this is bad for now, but will be really good further down the line when a new GHB changes focus from monsters. Gift of Disease is a great spell, easy to cast and with 21" range with an additional 7" you can typically get it off turn 1 (if you give the turn away/they take it) and tag multiple units to get the party going. All the Maggoth Lords seem really good and if it wasnt because everything else seems overcosted, I would actually say they are undercosted for what they bring. At 300 they would be insane in any other army. Glottkin is incredibly strong even at 700 pts. He dies fast but the utility he brings is really big. Plaguebearers are great when you look at effective health, especially with Fleshy Abundance ontop but thats literally all they do.. 1 attack each is pitiful. In an army with generally low output we need to grind the opponent down and the Plaguebearers simply dont do it with their weapon profile, even if you give them +1 attack from a Scrivener. I think 10 is an ok screen and objective holder. Blightkings give a lot of attacks and in turn a lot of grinding power with their bellyflop and just combat profile. Stacks Diseases nicely. The issue though is their price and low mobility. Its a bit like Ironjawz - You have Brutes that deal way more damage but they are too slow so people default to Gore Gruntas. I feel somewhat the same apply here, even if Blight Kings deal more damage, Pusgoyle Blightlords are just so much faster in a generally slow army, so even if you lose out on attacks I think the tradeup is worth it. I rarely see myself using Blightkings because of this. LoP/LoB seem worthless considering the above - I would rather have more bodies than a somewhat useless foot hero that buffs a unit I generally dont favour. The Poxbringer is also a bit loser in this book imo. The Scrivener/Slopitty are both pretty reasonable with Sloppity being a lot more useful since it buffs all Daemons, although I would never include them in my list but rather summon depending on need. Lord of Afflictions/Spume are really strong to deepstrike units - Deeping units seem really good for us due to 1) generally bad movement, gives you a way of threatning objectives/support heroes in the back of the opponent's army 2) we get extra summoning points - 3 is a pretty big swing and 3) its a free savage spearhead battle tactic, whats not to like? A lot of people prefer the Lord of Afflictions general with Overwhelming Stench to stop command abilities and then the 4+ ward artefact. I really like Spume because he allows all Mortal Maggotkin units to travel with him. All in all I think there are some clear bad/lazy design choices, maybe because of last-minute cuts due to internal testing, that become more apparent as you play games. The army in general is tanky, but we got some serious punchy units in the meta ala Ironjawz or Fulminators and the 5+ ward is not strong enough for you to just sit around and wait the game out. You need to grind and kill units. This is generally why I have kept playing my Glottkin list as it offers a lot of punch and the ability to mess with my opponent (end of their move charge is sick!).

What was your list?

I mean I dont really like the 2 MK list that much except its fun and flashy to put two big beasts on the board, but I would much rather prefer to play a single MK list with a more "balanced" approach aka both pigs and brutes on the board. In fact I would actually like to play around with Kragnos and have already done so and he does seem kinda impressive except he just dies to MWs currently, so hope the current rumors are real! People generally take the path of least resistance aka take the best lists to a tournament, but the fact that you are about the only one going 5-0 is telling. It could be everyone are just bad and you are a complete beast, or it could be due to your path to victory? I just dont see a slow IJ list beating a majority of the top dogs.

Yeah exactly. Stick them in Hunters, maybe give them Mystic Shield.. Thats a tough unit to remove entirely. They can really grind it out in combat and the opponent needs to commit something serious to get them off an area on the board.

Yeah I suggested it a page or two back that the issue with Ardboyz is really that they come in blocks of 5. They eat up your reinforcement points in no time which leaves them as just a cheap battleline option. I dont know if a huge block of 30 Ardboyz could be problematic though. 60 wounds with a 6+ ward on the many of those. You could easily do cute things like pulling the boyz from the front to ensure you get outside of 3" at the end of the combat, then Rally at the start of the next hero phase. It would be incredibly difficult to get rid of.

Im not sure how you incentivize running 1 MK lists. Do you really need the bodies? Probably not. You can still go for a 2 drop army with 2 MKs (although no artefact on the 2nd) so even the temptation of low drops is kinda whatever. Also a lot of people have proved that yo ucan do well with 10+ drops. I absolutely love my Pigs - The speed is amazing and the output is great. Im not sure how you convince me to use Brutes unless Pigs just get hammered into oblivion. Even without rend 2 at release I was still favouring Pigs over Brutes simply due to the speed alone. You would have to make some massive pts difference between the two units for me to really consider. Another issue is the ranged damage output of some armies - If you werent forced to engage turn 1/2 (otherwise shot off the board) I would value Brutes a lot more, but I feel like you need the speed. If Pigs are just hammered in the winter FAQ I kinda worry where Ironjawz will sit in the meta. Its also wild to me that Mega Gargants have been able to survive for so long and completely warped the meta and how people build lists for MONTHS yet Ironjawz come in and do well for a couple of weeks and everyone are losing their minds.

I dont believe it says anywhere you arent allowed to comment on any "hot takes" here.

AoS is a competitive game because people do compete. You dont have a banning phase in football, but its still competitive. The teams certainly arent all equal in strength either - Im no football expert at all, but for how long was "La Liga" dominated by just a couple of teams really? The other teams still try their best. There are also some countries that are hugely favored to win the world cup each time. People dont swap football teams as often as people swap armies in AoS though. AoS gets very stale for me if I stick with the same army for months upon months - I often swap every few months and often to new releases (not to chase the meta, I buy before I have a clue if X or Y unit is good) simply to enjoy the breath of fresh air and to play something not many others are currently playing. In DOTA/LoL you have MMR systems that ranks your account, but how would that work with AoS? I mean you already do get kinda ranked at each tournament due to swiss pairing anyways. In those digital games balance patches happen often, but you can freely select a new hero between each game anyways so any nerf/buff is irrelevant since you simply just pick the next best thing, for free. People dont have that kind of access to armies in AoS. Even if two people have the same army, they often dont have the same models so cant just switch things up on the fly from one week to another. One thing is $$$, another thing is time to assemble and paint new models.

Instead of Dominion selling poorly, couldnt it just be a case of GW overproducing boxes to ensure that supply could meet demand? Instead of risking another incident where they werent able to (Cursed City)? In either case I only see this as a positive thing for us consumers - There are now a bunch of minis at a hefty discount which is awesome for new and current players alike.

I dont even think Ironjawz is a problem army in competitive play honestly. It was really good on release because people build their armies with zero chaff and forgot the importance of screening their long range shooting units. We knew it would come in and shake things up, which was needed because people brought like 0 chaff. But like I was watching Bobo on stream and the top table DoK player deploys 10 witches on the far left hand of the board instead of using them to screen his 15 bowsnakes on the far right hand side, resulting in his entire army being tagged turn 1 and killed. I do wonder how many of these rumors turn out to be false.. If they are true though, the double MK list is pretty much dead? Going from 5 units of pigs to 3 due to point hikes is massive. Kragnos is kinda fun atm, not hyper competitive, but I could see him be pretty good with an army of brutes if he does bring the 3d6 charge aura and gets a 5+ ward etc.

The current rumors are Mawkrusha going up 70 pts, Pigs going up 30 pts, Kragnos going up to 800 pts, counting for 20 models and gets a 5+ ward save as well as some 3d6 charge aura/ability.

Of newer models? From what I have seen the recent releases all seem to go for the other statline.

Feels like we are creeping towards everything hitting and wounding on 2s with a single buff applied. Long gone are the days of models hitting and wounding on 4s huh.

Yes but they would only be able to bridge 15 Pinks instead of shoving 30 in your face turn 1. Thats a lot more managable.

The real fix would have been to reduce base size to 5 and cut their pts in half. Would have helped non spam lists more and in those HD horror spam lists they would max be able to bring 2x15 blobs which are a lot more managable.

I think this applies to pretty much every single army if you face it often. It becomes stale and boring. I dont think hitting and wounding on 2s is a bad thing in itself - At the end of the day it translates to consistent damage output, but would it be different if Gore Gruntas had damage 5 but were hitting and wounding on 4s instead? I dont think it would change anything. The thing with Ironjawz is that it is a combat army with literally no shooting output (well 4x damage 1 attacks on the Mawkrusha, woopdedoo), which inherently means there are lot of plays to be had, unlike facing a crazy high ranged output army that can shoot your stuff to bits from 24"+ inches away despite trying to screen/zone your important stuff. I would prefer facing Ironjawz any day over armies like Seraphon/DoK/LRL flinging MWs at you almost boardwide with little to no counterplay or Mega Gargants literally autowinning a game before you even have your first turn if your army doesnt have enough damage.

Even if he stays the exact same hes not good enough to justify tbh. Its unfortunate when they create named characters with lackluster unique abilities that in no way make up for the lack of a command trait or artefact. He cant even opt for a 3+ base save.

It is false, it is not a case of having a subjective opinion. Claiming "there's no tactics that the doubleturn introduces" is just not true. It adds a lot to the game. It is true though. A lot of people at a low skill just push their stuff forward with little thought of what might be coming the following turn, they lose the roll-off and then go "****** I hate this double turn it just lost me the game". No, you knew it was a possibility and set yourself up to be hit by it. I know you despise the mechanic, just dont play with it if its that big of a deal. But clamining it ruins AoS is frankly laughable.

This is completely different. You are talking about why every army isnt equal where as we were talking about the priority mechanic. In fact you could argue that every army should indeed be getting podiums since the dreaded double turn is oh so game deciding, surely there are Beast of Chaos players out there who are lucky and get a couple of double turns during their tournament session, so they should be winning right? The same good players are winning tournaments/getting great podium results with various armies, not just because they bring the most broken stuff. It goes without saying that at a tournament the majority of players are bringing filth to the party, afterall the main point of a tournament is to compete against each other so people generally take whatever list they consider to have a good shot at winning. People are "netlisting" left and right so even your Average Joe will bring a rather competitive list most of the time. If there was no skill involved in the priority mechanic and it literally always just came down to a dice roll, then why isnt Average Joe getting podiums despite bringing more or less the exact same list to a tournament as any of the top players that repeatly get great results? The answer is obvious, and thats because there is a massive difference and if you think otherwise you are kidding yourself.