Liquidsteel

Yeah completely fair interpretation, as I said it's been discussed several times, which shows it's not cut and dry. On this one I'm going to err on the side of caution unless a TO allows it. In general, the word benefit has come up before, also, in a different scenario. I played against Lumineth a couple weeks ago, and Teclis cast Howling Gale on to Nagash, who had used his Supreme Leader of the Undead command ability in my own turn before. The spell howling gale states that a "unit cannot use or benefit from commandabilities until your next hero phase." My opponent claimed this meant that Nagash no longer benefited from his re-roll 1s to hit and save, I wasn't sure, so agreed to play it that way. The fact is says use or benefit, probably does indicate that "benefit" means actually utilise the effects of, which brings me back to my point regarding the Vamp Lords ability, though can see what you mean regarding AoS 2 and 3 language differences, as maybe if it was written now it would say "issue or receive".

We've discussed it in the WhatsApp chat a few times. and I'm not sure it 100% works that way, personally. It says a unit can only "benefit" from it once per phase, which I take to mean actually benefit from the effects of. Meaning you could theoretically stack it across 2-3 combat phases, however the extras would be wasted as you can only ever "benefit" from +1 attack. It doesn't say you can only "receive" it once per phase, it says "benefit".

I think save stacking itself is okay, as it allows those big monsters to actually be tough, and not get dragged down even under weight of dice from a buffed up horde. They should be all but immune to chaff, in my opinion, just like in 40k where 2x Toughness puts the attacking unit on 6s to wound. My gripe is that instead of pushing rend (we could easily have -2 rend on many battleline units for more "elite" armies, and rend 3/4/5 on the biggest stuff) they have decided to go the way of dishing out mortal wounds. Lumineth, new Kruleboyz, new Stormcast, all having access to MWs on 6s to hit even for their regular units is just silly. It would have been much better, I think, if they were either 6s to wound OR just 6s to hit are an auto wound, still allowing a save roll. They're also really pushing shooting, which combined with all these mortals has changed how the game is played massively. Getting big monsters to survive turn 1 and actually get in to combat is going to get even tougher I reckon.

It's subjective I guess. I personally dislike but have no issues playing with and against unpainted models, proxies etc when it's about practicing, or vs a new player. I like that most events, at least those that I am aware of and will/would attend, require a minimum standard (painted and based, for example) to avoid the above.

Wolves are there as fast moving chaff, and a wounds buffer for Belladamma. They do basically no damage so don't expect anything from them, assuming you charge a screen with a 5+ save, even on 3s to hit and wound, you probably have 6 bases in combat? That equates to around 3-4 damage, on average.

Not entirely, he does well against non Teclis builds or non Zaitrec, from my experience, but Teclis shuts him down. The guaranteed unbind is very powerful and the spell ignore makes offensive casting a 50/50. I had the misfortune of playing vs Teclis in Zaitrec, where even the regular units were on base +2...

Yep completely agree with you, as I said I am too attached to big heroes myself and have been trying to make them work. And full zombie/chaff spam is not something I can play. Blood Knight spam is what I am working towards, however hobby time and space is now at a premium so its slow going, only have 2 units painted up with a backlog of other models staring at me.

Love the energy of the list but is it not technically illegal? No single model can be above 50% of the army points now.

Lumineth are and have been the bane of my existence since their release, mainly because I enjoy playing big monsters e.g Ghoul Kings on Terrorgheists in FEC, VLoZDs and Nagash in Soulblight, which they tend to eat for breakfast. I'm still working out how to beat them, but my next list attempt will be a one drop. 50/50 chance to take away their choice is great, as the worst thing for me is being out dropped and not knowing the turn order which they are expecting to have. Lumineth will kill a dragon per turn no problem, and are defensive enough to weather a precision strike. Sticking with two dragons though, you could deploy aggressively, forcing him to go first and shoot off Vhordrai but leaving VLoZD plus Blood Knights free to cause havoc. You can then push forward and hope for the double. Or potentially deploy at least 30" away from Teclis whilst taking Pinions and Run and Charge command trait on the VLoZD. 26" movement plus charge. If given first the unleash hell isn't as bad without power of Hysh and you can try to strike hard. If he takes first the VLoZD dies anyway but then you push forward and again hope for a big double.

Regarding Riders of Ruin, if you make them fly, I think you can still do mortals by passing over. As it's a new sentence.

Well you can fit it in if you take 2 x 10 skellies. I know the 3 x 20 zombies was played on a stream in a team tournament but I can't wrap my head around losing spell portal for Nagash.

Any reason you aren't taking spell portal?

It's just been nerfed to 1 wizard only.

You can swap it for the Brazier corpse cart. That debuffs enemies with -1 to cast within 18" and -1 to wound within 9".

They get to issue command from 18" rather than 12" as well, which is a big increase on the aura.

She's a Vyrkos Vampire Hero, thus gives out +1 to wound to Deadwalkers and Deathrattle units wholly within 9", as part of the Vyrkos sub allegiance abilities.

Yeah you can already see pretty good list variety, you can go full zombie horde, a mixed horde and monster, or full monster/hero/godhammer as you please, which can help adapt to what is at hand. With Kruleboyz I think we are going to see a very strong army, and new Stormcast already seem decent. Nurgle should be next and is currently very strong, so if they improve it might start to shape list building. My hope is that some of the next few releases can help curb some of the Lumineth stuff going on, if taking mass sentinels or 3 wind spirits becomes less viable, it helps our Monsters stay alive. It's not fun having your VLoZD shot off turn 1 without anywhere on the board to hide (bar LoN ambush). Nagash is very good right now, though someone plagued by his miscasts. He still offers a lot (the command ability is SO good) even when he miscasts, but I imagine it's the difference between being a reliable "5-0" list as people put it and just a solid "4-1". I don't think he will go up. I wish he had some sort of protection, for example miscast but can keep casting at -1 or something. For me, I'm still new to competitive 2 day tournaments (had my first the other week, went 2-3) so I'm not too fussed whether a list is 5-0 or 4-1, for me it's about being able to deal with most of what I can expect to face, and have a fun time doing it. Outside of that team event in Poland, Blood Knights spam hasn't hit the table yet from what I can see, so maybe they will be okay. At most I am considering 4 units anyway, so I think I will be okay. I'm over 7k painted as we speak, I could actually play vs myself without needing to share models and run competitive lists on both sides, which is great.

Cogs has been "comped" in a very high profile tournament here in the UK, run by the Facehammer guys, one of whom is a playtester. They have attempted to address some of the biggest offenders, for example Gotrek can't be healed, Lumineth Foxes can't move in the opponent's shooting phase, etc

Yeah, I think he has done work for me once, which was something crazy like 16 damage to a unit of plaguebearers. All 3 claws hit and did like 15 damage on their own. This was indeed under Mannfred's aura and with flaming weapon active, as well as all out attack to negate the -1 to hit. At the same time he has done zero damage to a lot of things. Still, he has a relatively small base and can spike, and you're absolutely correct that Rousing Commander buffs every profile. Food for thought for sure.

Yeah I think there's even an option to go Vhordrai + VLoZD but it means cutting the Grave Guard and putting a second unit of Zombies back in. I've often found myself rather underwhelmed with the Vengorian on the damage side of things; so many times he does nothing with his low rend and 4s to hit on the claws, I think Flaming Weapon is probably a trap spell to be honest unless you're clearing chaff). 280 points is quite expensive if all he will really do is provide support. I do love the Grave Guard though and Mannfred is a fantastic force multiplier, not to mention the tricks he can get up to with his teleport. Honestly despite some parts of the book feeling rushed and lacking synergy, the variety in list building options is fantastic.

Looks like a decent list! I'd question whether the Burning Head is worth it over a better chance at a Triumph maybe, that's all. I do also think, in this meta of Mortal Wounds, that Grave Sand Shard could be good to weather a big turn from something like Lumineth. A 5+ deathless save becomes pretty spicy when Grave Guard and Blood Knights are rerolling 1s from their banners. I suppose I'm just very used to having my stuff shot off the board that the -1 to Wound in combat aura hasn't been so great for me. I've written a few lists that contain 2 x 5 Blood Knights and 20 Grave Guard with a 20 Zombie screen, I do want to experiment with Vhordrai a bit more thanks to his -3 rend, I'm just a sucker for a big centrepiece (currently using Nagash a lot). I've used Mannfred a bit and he's great, however sometimes I wish he had a bit more of a punch. I do enjoy Spell Portals for Belladamma also, getting a turn 1 Lycancurse off if you go for an Alpha maybe. Here's what I have lined up to try, once I finish painting this second batch of Blood Knights. Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords- Lineage: Kastelai Dynasty- Mortal Realm: Shyish- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery- Triumphs: InspiredLeadersPrince Vhordrai (455)**- Lore of the Vampires: Amethystine PinionsVengorian Lord (280)*- General- Command Trait: Rousing Commander- Artefact: Grave-sand Shard- Lore of the Vampires: Amaranthine OrbBelladamma Volga, First of the Vyrkos (200)**- Lore of the Vampires: SoulpikeBattleline5 x Blood Knights (195)**5 x Blood Knights (195)**10 x Dire Wolves (135)*20 x Deadwalker Zombies (115)*Units20 x Grave Guard (280)**- Great Wight Blades- Reinforced x 13 x Fell Bats (75)**Endless Spells & InvocationsUmbral Spellportal (70)Core Battalions*Battle Regiment**Battle RegimentTotal: 2000 / 2000Reinforced Units: 1 / 4Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 132Drops: 2

Congrats! Can you give a rundown of your games?

It's a good list, I think. One drop, tanky, mobile and not lacking in punch. It was discussed in the WhatsApp chat not too long after the book dropped, but with a foot vampire lord. The king on Steed is definitely an upgrade. I am working towards this list myself, though I think people are sleeping on Grave Sand Shard. Units with a banner reroll 1s on deathless, so for one turn you can be 5+ rerolling 1s on your deathless. With so much ranged damage, especially mortals, I feel it is worth a look in vs the ever popular fragment.

It's probably getting fixed very soon, and events are already comping it. Played two games today and we are ignoring the FAQ. So I guess just ignore it, but otherwise yes an amuleted VLoZD just got a nice survivability boost.

I haven't seen any lists using a Mourngul in Soulblight, at least not on those you can see used in competitive events here in the UK.