Skirmish Warscroll ABilities Explanation

[mDaro]

How is everyone handling the weapon load outs?

Example - Retributors on the war scoll are a unit of "3 or more models, 2 in every 5 five may be armed with a Star Soul Mace."

Do you not get a Star Soul mace until you have five models or do you get the first one at 3 models for skirmish?

[Sleboda]

You get one right away.  No need to hit 6 first.

[Lord Baerion]

You get one right away.  No need to hit 6 first.

Yep, in fact your first one could be a Mace. So could your second, but your next 3 would have to be regular with one being a prime if you want.


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[mDaro]

Thank you.

[wayniac]

I'm pretty sure the rule is that if you have a restriction e.g. 1 in 5 models, you must have 5 models before you can upgrade (for free) one to have the special weapon.  2 in every 5 would mean you need to have 5 models to upgrade 2 of them.  If it's a blanket upgrade, that doesn't have a restriction on "in X models" then you can take them immediately (e.g. unit leader, standard, musician)

Book as at home so I can't check but I distinctly recall reading this.

[Joeggrenaut]

7 hours ago, wayniac said:

I'm pretty sure the rule is that if you have a restriction e.g. 1 in 5 models, you must have 5 models before you can upgrade (for free) one to have the special weapon.  2 in every 5 would mean you need to have 5 models to upgrade 2 of them.  If it's a blanket upgrade, that doesn't have a restriction on "in X models" then you can take them immediately (e.g. unit leader, standard, musician)

I have to agree with wayniac on this one.

[RuneBrush]

Agree with @wayniac's explanation (other wise you'd have two maces in three).  Your first three can include you Prime but you would need another 2 before you can put in a Starsoul mace.

[Baardah]

Hos about the arkanaut company? You can have 3 specials for every 10. Dose this mean you need 10 before you can have your frist special waepon???

[RuneBrush]

2 hours ago, Baardah said:

Hos about the arkanaut company? You can have 3 specials for every 10. Dose this mean you need 10 before you can have your frist special waepon???

Yup, the text says "for every 10 models in the company", so you'll need 10 models before you can have a special weapon

[RuneBrush]

Just for ease.  The exact wording for Skirmish is:

 

Quote

You may choose any combination of weapon options for models from the same warscroll. For example, you may take an Orruk Brute armed with two Brute Choppas, as well as an Orruk Brute armed with a Jagged Gore-hacka. However, you must adhere to any limitations on weapon options that are otherwise specified. For example, only 1 in 5 Orruk Brutes can be armed with a Massive Gore-choppa, regardless of the weapon combination of the other models from the same warscroll.

This would allow my Blood Warriors to have a mixture of Gorefists and dual-wield Gore Axes, but only a single Goreglaive and then only once I've got ten Blood Warriors.

[rokapoke]

5 hours ago, Baardah said:

Hos about the arkanaut company? You can have 3 specials for every 10. Dose this mean you need 10 before you can have your frist special waepon???

I'd read it as a fraction. 3/10, or up to 30%, of your models can have special weapons. Your first three must be standard but the fourth can be special (1/4 < 3/10). Your seventh could be another specialist (2/7 < 3/10). 

At least, that's my interpretation. 

[stato]

4 5ths of a dwarf? is that a halfling?

I can accept 1 in 5 as being 1 in a unit upto 5, but 3 for every 10 is a clear 3 only when you have 10.  Its not designed for skirmish though so up to your opponent how you want to adjust the rules to suit how you want to play.

 

[wayniac]

Yeah, part of the downside of Skirmish using the normal AOS warscrolls is it doesn't take into account things like very limited selections or useless abilities (e.g. daemon standards that replenish on battleshock)  or very powerful abilities (e.g. auras since they stack per model in skirmish).  It's vague with things like "re-roll battleshock" and how they affect things (my personal ruling would be if the general is within 6" of the banner you can re-roll; if the general is dead you can re-roll period at the reduced Bravery of 5).

3/10 is pretty clear though.  It's for every X models, Y may take a special weapons.  No real ambiguity with it.

[Baardah]

I think most opponents would be ok with one special weapon after 3 regular Ark.company....

[TheOtherJosh]

This particular question is likely one of the reasons why you can't have more than one under-strength unit in your army.

 

I've seen it played like has been suggested, any combinations... keeping within weapon limitations and "If you don't have the headcount, you don't get the specials."

 

I.E. If you don't have 5 models, then you can't have any Star Soul Maces.

 

For example, Blood Warriors:

Blood Warriors are equipped with a Goreaxe or a pair of Goreaxes.

1 in every 10 may be equipped with a Goreglaive.

 

So, you need to have 9 models with Goreaxes, before you can equip one model with a Goreglaive.

 

Logic:

If you start with "Specials" and with a minimum unit size of 1, what stops you from stacking all the "high damage special weapons" and ignoring the "normal" weapons? And then just add another (different) unit with all the high powered specials from that unit?

 

i.e. cherry-picking the champion and giving them the "special weapon" and then proceeding to a different warscroll and repeating?

 

The

"You may choose any combination of weapon options for models on the same warscroll. ... However you must adhere to any limitations on weapon options that are otherwise specified."

 

Gives me pause in the above "if you don't have x number of models you don't get any specials" interpretation.

 

The verbiage of "only 1 in 5 ... can be armed" and "you can choose any combination of weapon options" could be read that one can have the "1" option without meeting the "5"... but must have 4 more before taking a second "special weapon."

 

It would be nice to have a "must have 5 models to equip one of them with a [insert weapon here]" FAQ clarification.

 

Though, front-loading "special" weapons makes things more "killy" at lower renown levels. (Higher alpha strike damage.)

 

[rokapoke]

1 hour ago, TheOtherJosh said:

It would be nice to have a "must have 5 models to equip one of them with a [insert weapon here]" FAQ clarification.

I assume we can all agree that front-loading units with their "X per Y models" special weapons is a maneuver that sticks it to your opponent.

It would be nice, then, if GW didn't have to explicitly write rules that say "don't ****** your opponent over."

Just remember that there are two players (or more, I guess) in every game. Do unto others as you would have done unto you.

[Lord Baerion]

RAW which have been posted is IMO clearly that you can take your first retributor with a mace. It doesn't say anywhere you have to reach the limit to take one or meet the minimum size to take a special weapon. It says you must follow the specified warscroll rules which is 1 in 5. Just like you can take a prime as your first model, you can take a special weapon as your first model, but your next 4 would have to be normal if the limit was 1/5.

I'm not saying it's friendly or what you should do, but I believe it clearly allows for it.


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[stato]

1 minute ago, Lord Baerion said:

RAW which have been posted is IMO clearly that you can take your first retributor with a mace. It doesn't say anywhere you have to reach the limit to take one or meet the minimum size to take a special weapon. It says you must follow the specified warscroll rules which is 1 in 5.

Your two sentences contradict each other. 1 in 1 is not the same as 1 in 5.  Only if it said 1 in models upto 5, or 1 in 5 or part thereof, would it be the same as 1 in 1 or 1 in 2 etc.

[Lord Cedric]

The way I read it... it says 1 in 5 can have x weapon. 1 in 5... meaning if you start and end with weapon x... that is actually 1 in 1.. you will need at least 5 to get weapon x.

- Cedric

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[Lord Baerion]

Your two sentences contradict each other. 1 in 1 is not the same as 1 in 5.  Only if it said 1 in models upto 5, or 1 in 5 or part thereof, would it be the same as 1 in 1 or 1 in 2 etc.

Correct. However in Skirmish you aren't likely to take 5 out the gate. As you build the unit you must adhere to the restrictions of 1/5. So you start the warscroll as 1/1, but as you add models you have to hit 1/5 or stop somewhere in between. This doesn't break the unit comp rules as you never have more than 1, but 1 is allowed for every 5 models.

There isn't a line in the rule that says you must have 5 to get 1. It says weapon load outs can be mixed but must adhere to limitations. If the limitation is 1 in 5 then it's one for every 5. If the unit starts with the one you haven't broken the limitation.

Clearly with Skirmish rules you have to break unit structure to have 1 or 2 models in one unit. This seems to be something that needs a FAQ as there are differing opinions on how to apply the limitations.

Per the seemingly agreement on this thread, a Judicator prime with Skybolt Bow and couldn't be added until the 5th Judicator or 30 renown (+hero). I don't believe that to be the way it is worded or intended.

Again, I wouldn't want to see my opponent bring 6 models each from a different warscroll and have each be the champion with special weapon and I wouldn't do it, but I don't see it being against the rules.


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[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

you start with "Specials" and with a minimum unit size of 1, what stops you from stacking all the "high damage special weapons" and ignoring the "normal" weapons? And then just add another (different) unit with all the high powered specials from that unit?

 

i.e. cherry-picking the champion and giving them the "special weapon" and then proceeding to a different warscroll and repeating?

This is prevented by the rules that say you may only take each scroll once.

[stato]

23 minutes ago, Lord Baerion said:

Correct. However in Skirmish you aren't likely to take 5 out the gate. As you build the unit you must adhere to the restrictions of 1/5. So you start the warscroll as 1/1, but as you add models you have to hit 1/5 or stop somewhere in between. This doesn't break the unit comp rules as you never have more than 1, but 1 is allowed for every 5 models.

 

Correct, you are allowed less than the starting minimum of models on the warscroll. This is stated in the skirmish rules.

 

23 minutes ago, Lord Baerion said:

There isn't a line in the rule that says you must have 5 to get 1. It says weapon load outs can be mixed but must adhere to limitations. If the limitation is 1 in 5 then it's one for every 5. If the unit starts with the one you haven't broken the limitation.

Weapon limitations are not modified by removing the unit size IMO. The unit size is a separate line in the warscroll, modified for skirmish. If limitations were to be modified the rule in Skirmish would say so, but it doesnt, it says they still apply as per the warscroll.  So if the limitation is 1 in 5 then its 1 for every 5. If the unit starts with 1 model then that is not reaching the 5 models required to unlock the weapon.

 

Think about the purpose of the game, its a small warband, a few models when you start at 25r. Even coming into a 50r game you are not likely to be bringing full units.  Why would GW want you to spam special weapons? wouldnt it be more appropriate to the setting to have normal guys exploring rather than 3 different models from 3 scrolls all maxed out with the best weapon option?

 

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, rokapoke said:

I assume we can all agree that front-loading units with their "X per Y models" special weapons is a maneuver that sticks it to your opponent.

I don't agree any more than I would agree it's sticking it to them to make your first model a champion.

It's an option for everyone.   Use the option or don't,  but don't be upset when your opponent does. 

[TheOtherJosh]

This is prevented by the rules that say you may only take each scroll once.

 

But it doesn't stop a player from taking a "cherry picking" approach to grabbing a couple of Decimators, then jumping over to Judicators ... bouncing to Liberators and then prosecutors with javelins and now prosecutors with Celestial Hammers. Now let's grab a couple of protectors and let's grab some Retribuiters. Give them the "special" weapons of their associated forces and pick the champion from each squad...

 

It does stop me from taking repeat copies of the same unit. But not from picking the cream of the special weapons from all of the available warscrolls.

 

Some forces have better options in that regard.

 

By requiring that minimum number prior to the specials the calculus changes.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't state one model for every 5. That would be clear. It says one in 5.

 

example:

I have one strawberry. I have one strawberry in one pile of berries.

I add a blueberry. I still have one strawberry in two berries.

I add another blueberry. I now still have one strawberry in three berries.

 

If we use "for" I would need the pile of berries that equals 5. And I could replace one blueberry for a strawberry. That would be one strawberry for every 5 berries.

 

[Sleboda]

10 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

But it doesn't stop a player from taking a "cherry picking" approach to grabbing a couple of Decimators, then jumping over to Judicators ... bouncing to Liberators and then prosecutors with javelins and now prosecutors with Celestial Hammers. Now let's grab a couple of protectors and let's grab some Retribuiters. Give them the "special" weapons of their associated forces and pick the champion from each squad...

Where is the issue with that? I played all 6 gamed in the campaign over the last two days.  We opted to start at 30r. I had a Plague Lord, a Blightking Champion, a Plague Monk champ with scroll, and a plaguebearer champ. 

So, a hero and one model from three different units.  Played fine and was fun for us both. 

:shrug: