Dark Elves in Age of Sigmar

[KrecikOwsik]

After many years I've decided to come back to Warhammer but I see a lot of changes appeared since my last game.

I'm collecting Dark Elves army but a lot of stuff is out of stock on GW site. Are dark elves going to get AOS rework or will they be totally erased from AOS universe? I can't find anything about it.

[Killax]

They are currently split up into sub-sub-factions, I say sub-sub because 'Dark Elves' themselves have become a sub-faction of the Grand Alliance Order.
AoS currently works with 4 Grand Alliances and despite DE being quite evil they ended up in Order.

The current Keywords/sub-sub-factions you want to look at are:
- Dark Elves
- Darkling Covens
- Daughters of Khaine
- Order Serpentis
- Scourge Privateers
- Shadowblades

Feel free to download the Age of Sigmar app for their design, the app is free  

[KrecikOwsik]

Thanks, that will help a lot

[Aeryenn]

Hold on. New Dark Elves are expected to be released soon accordind to rumours.

[KrecikOwsik]

Hope it's true and it's not that much 40k-like as some new ones

[Killax]

Well I do think that all models will get more hyper-fantasy as some of the older designs. It's a trend we see continueing.
For example, Fyreslayers/Slayers; The Fyreslayers are a capable of riding on dragon like beings, Dwarfs who are even embracing the use of magical runes on their skin, in a way they are armoured and doing things the WFB Slayers would never do. Kharadron Overlords also fills this difference between technological advanced and mixing technology with magic to archieve results. 

Another example can be found in all the artwork and how well it represents the setting and actual models. We see no artwork where characters are outright killed or slaughtered. Sometimes the suggestion is left there, 99/100 AoS artworks do not contain a single drop of blood or severed limb. So far the only one that comes to mind who breaks that boundry is one where Stormcasts are fighting Nurgle Daemons. Flesheaters have blood on them but their 'victims' are as clean as the morning shower. 

For Dark Elves I do think we will see the 'Dark Elf' represented really well, while still being Order the boundry of what Order allows for is practically reached with Dark Elves. I believe we will see Dark Elves consist out of 3 main sub-factions, covering:
- Blood Witch Elves; there is still a lot of possible overlap from Khaine to Khorne however what is clearly mentioned this time is how much Khorne hates magic. Which means that Khaine might be rewritten as an 'Order god of Blood'. In essence the opposite of Khorne an 'Chaos god of Blood'.
- Assassins;  I think that again Order doesn't have a lot of Assassin like models, so where Skaven fill in this role for Chaos, Dark Elves are the perfect race to put these practices to darker use. 
- Pirates and Order Serpentis, the followers of a Sea Lizard God (perhaps?), fits a very unique look that in essence is the dark reflection of High Elves Lion Rangers and Order Draconis.

Note that this is only the route I would choose to go. GW can obviously go in very different direction. What we havn't seen so much as some think is that GW completely abandons older designs. Knowing that Kharadron Overlords are very high-tech but functionally speaking it can now be done because several former armies have now become their own 2-3 sub-armies. 

[Braneric]

Given that they turned Lizardmen into daemons (good ones!) GW can go basically any direction they want to

[Dracothjay]

Spot on KILLAX. I feel we will see a shadow teleportation/assassination army soon. It's scheduled for summer release so we haven't much time to wait.

if you think about it we've possibly seen what dark elves could look like without even realising. Mistweaver saih and tenebrael shard both hail from the shadow realm.......... food for thought.

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, Dracothjay said:

Spot on KILLAX. I feel we will see a shadow teleportation/assassination army soon. It's scheduled for summer release so we haven't much time to wait.

if you think about it we've possibly seen what dark elves could look like without even realising. Mistweaver saih and tenebrael shard both hail from the shadow realm.......... food for thought.

Not sure it will still have the samea flavor as dark elves though... 

[Menkeroth]

They don't need to, and it's good there is no dark elves anymore, they were too cartoonish and unbelievable.

[Entombet]

4 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

They don't need to, and it's good there is no dark elves anymore, they were too cartoonish and unbelievable.

Hyhy and kharadron overlords arent over the top :p. As i like aos overall some things in it are just to hilarious.

[Menkeroth]

KO are just way not original, which GW could have done better. 

[Mayple]

12 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

They don't need to, and it's good there is no dark elves anymore, they were too cartoonish and unbelievable.

That's a bit of a weird statement to make. What brought you to that conclusion?

 

And for the record, there are still dark elves around, both in the lore and as models

[Menkeroth]

4 hours ago, Mayple said:

That's a bit of a weird statement to make. What brought you to that conclusion?

Their lore, obviously. Worse than this of elves is only what Salvatore wrote for the dark elves in the Forgotten Realms.

4 hours ago, Mayple said:

And for the record, there are still dark elves around, both in the lore and as models

No, there is not. 

[Mayple]

5 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

Their lore, obviously. Worse than this of elves is only what Salvatore wrote for the dark elves in the Forgotten Realms.

So, do you just dislike dark elves in general, or were you pointing to something specific in their lore that presented them as cartoony? It's alright if they're not your cup of tea, but I still don't know why you think they're cartoonish and unbelievable. What, specifically, is giving you that impression? Do you feel the same way about orcs? (Not assuming you do, but the same impression could be had when looking at them, so if there's a similar viewpoint on that, it's easier to see where you're coming from)

11 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

 

No, there is not. 

Dark elves were featured as recently as 'city of secrets' - not sure what sources you have that indicate that they're not around, but they definitely are. 

[Menkeroth]

1 minute ago, Mayple said:

So, do you just dislike dark elves in general, or were you pointing to something specific in their lore that presented them as cartoony? It's alright if they're not your cup of tea, but I still don't know why you think they're cartoonish and unbelievable. What, specifically, is giving you that impression? Do you feel the same way about orcs? (Not assuming you do, but the same impression could be had when looking at them, so if there's a similar viewpoint on that, it's easier to see where you're coming from)

for example, their society - not so bad as in 40k but still. It would be more appropriate for high fantasy, for example, but in a world trying to be as logical and developed as ours it's a bad joke. They would not survive that long with all betraying all - and it's not mentioning things like 80 thousand elves in a border watch tower in the ET, actually. That's just ridiculous - 80 thousand elves in the north wastelands? And so on.

Concerning orcs, they were and are quite funny, and in a new high fantasy setting millions of rampaging orcs are a normal thing. Though far from perfect too.

5 minutes ago, Mayple said:

Dark elves were featured as recently as 'city of secrets' - not sure what sources you have that indicate that they're not around, but they definitely are. 

No, they are not. These guys (and in general) are called aelfs exiles and are not what they were in the Old World, happily.

[Mayple]

4 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

for example, their society - not so bad as in 40k but still. It would be more appropriate for high fantasy, for example, but in a world trying to be as logical and developed as ours it's a bad joke. They would not survive that long with all betraying all - and it's not mentioning things like 80 thousand elves in a border watch tower in the ET, actually. That's just ridiculous - 80 thousand elves in the north wastelands? And so on.

Ah. Yeah I can see that point of view. I've always considered Warhammer a sort of grimdark high fantasy anyway, so that never really phased me. As for the survival of their society, I don't think it's as self-destructive as you make it out to be. Outside of Har Ganeth, where murder was commonplace (but even that place had rules), the dark elves are self-serving, plotting douchebags who'd throw anyone under the bus if it'd benefit them somehow (A noteworthy difference from the skaven, who'd do it just because they could get away with it) - sure, but they were still a society governed by laws and rules, under the iron fist of Malekith. In a society filled with Ramsay Boltons, you want to make sure there are some pretty severe consequences to breaking the rules, which is why their society is, above all else, dominated by political intrigue and subterfuge. Not "lawl, I'm gonna stab you becuz" 

I like to compare them to the Skaven, because they are on different sides of the same spectrum. 
The Skaven are short-sighted schemers, which is why a lot of their stuff tends to blow up (literally) in their faces, but they make up for it with numbers. They'll stab their own brethren in the back at a moments notice. Dark elves are long-term plotters, who mostly serve themselves. They take out most of their aggression on everybody else (Raiding, pilaging, capturing slaves) - and work together because it is more practical than to work against eachother (even though they might actively work against eachother behind the scenes) - Their society is maintained by the combination of the fanatical followers of Khaine, racial ambition (A lot of them believe Malekith to be the true ruler of the elves), and Malekith's rule of fear. 

 

I don't know about 80 thousand elves in the north wastelands, but I never take GW's number crunching all that seriously. I believe they once stated that the amount of soldiers available to a faction at any given time is as many as is needed for it to be epic. Something along those lines, I'm sure I butchered the actual quote, but you get the idea. Hopefully

 

4 hours ago, Menkeroth said:

No, they are not. These guys (and in general) are called aelfs exiles and are not what they were in the Old World, happily.

The Exiled Aelves are dark elves. Different name, same people. They've been knocked down the food chain, for sure, and Malekith is no longer around to enforce his rule upon them (which should lead to more male sorcerers for one, since those were forbidden while he was around), but they are very much the same people they were back in the old world. Darkling covens are mostly governing themselves (with mind controlled thralls no less!) - Corsairs are still raiding, pillaging, and taking slaves (Probably not very vocal about that last bit of merchandise though, but Order gets their exotic beasts and spices, so who's complaining? ) - Order Serpentis are murdering their enemies as per usual (Probably the least Dark elfy of the current roster) - Daughters of Khaine has had to tone down their old way of life in a big way. They used to sacrifice thousands upon thousands of slaves to Khaine atop their bloody altars in their cities of the old world. I doubt Order is all that happy about that though, so they've at the very least been forced to carry out their rituals in more.. secluded spaces. From what I remember (a bit rusty on my daughters of Khaine lore, to be honest) they tend to show up wherever there are battles to be found. Very blood for the blood god.

Point being; the dark elves are still here. They've got a different name, and are governed by new leadership, sure, but their way of life remains largely the same. 

[Menkeroth]

2 hours ago, Mayple said:

As for the survival of their society, I don't think it's as self-destructive as you make it out to be.

It's not me, it's GW. A society governed by fear and rules with everybody wanting to betray everybody when it seems appropriate is something that is not unheard of, is it. Like many totalitarian regimes, almost of which have already fallen or will fall later. High elven society where every noble constantly schemes and plots to gain more advantages at the court is also hilarious, but at least such feudal societies were before and quite for a time, and true feudalism never died actually, so why not. 

2 hours ago, Mayple said:

I don't know about 80 thousand elves in the north wastelands, but I never take GW's number crunching all that seriously. I believe they once stated that the amount of soldiers available to a faction at any given time is as many as is needed for it to be epic.

ET: Khaine, where the hordes of the Blood God invade Naggaroth, starting with a usual border watch post with 80 000 elves. A small tower.  In the north where food is scarce and constant war takes place hundreds and thousands of years. Just an example, but... Of course, it's just numbers, but when people talk about logic and how well Old World was made, it does not stand a chance.

2 hours ago, Mayple said:

The Exiled Aelves are dark elves. Different name, same people.

No, not really. They don't have their own books, sadly, as of yet, but it seems they changed a lot, especially when they became Order instead of Destruction (Chaos in the Old World, actually, and I expected them to side with Chaos when GW introduced the new system of dividing things). They lost their self-destructive chaotic nature and became just not that really pleasant types of people you hardly would like to hang up with. Corsairs kill or enslave wild beasts and occasionally raid Chaos settlements (and maybe other sides apart from Order too). Witch aelves are just one of many brutal cults found throughout Azyrheim and newfound cities of Order (after all, Order does not mean good and virtuous as already pointed out by others). Shadowblades seek and root out corruption and agents of Chaos, acting as a secret service of Order, like the Order of Azyr. Darkling covens are just covens under leadership of a single sorceress who uses her army also to fight Chaos who drove them all out of their homes. And so on.

[Mayple]

1 hour ago, Menkeroth said:

It's not me, it's GW. A society governed by fear and rules with everybody wanting to betray everybody when it seems appropriate is something that is not unheard of, is it. Like many totalitarian regimes, almost of which have already fallen or will fall later. High elven society where every noble constantly schemes and plots to gain more advantages at the court is also hilarious, but at least such feudal societies were before and quite for a time, and true feudalism never died actually, so why not. 

So.. When you say that their society unbelievable, are you really saying that they're not historically accurate? Because I can get behind that. If that's not what you're getting at, I'm still going to have to ask what exactly it is you find so unbelievable about it. Are you judging it based on human factors? Because they're not human, so socio-political, and psychological factors and such will be very different for them. You mentioned the high elven nobles and their constant scheming - part of the reason they are so into that is because their way of life is so high above the rest, they don't have to worry about anything but their own political position. No constant struggle for survival. No large threat constantly looming over their lands (only occasionally) - The dark elves add daggers and dark magic to that equation. My point being that these societies are so different from human societies because the minds that manage them are alien to ours.

 

1 hour ago, Menkeroth said:

No, not really. They don't have their own books, sadly, as of yet, but it seems they changed a lot, especially when they became Order instead of Destruction (Chaos in the Old World, actually, and I expected them to side with Chaos when GW introduced the new system of dividing things). They lost their self-destructive chaotic nature and became just not that really pleasant types of people you hardly would like to hang up with. Corsairs kill or enslave wild beasts and occasionally raid Chaos settlements (and maybe other sides apart from Order too). Witch aelves are just one of many brutal cults found throughout Azyrheim and newfound cities of Order (after all, Order does not mean good and virtuous as already pointed out by others). Shadowblades seek and root out corruption and agents of Chaos, acting as a secret service of Order, like the Order of Azyr. Darkling covens are just covens under leadership of a single sorceress who uses her army also to fight Chaos who drove them all out of their homes. And so on.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. You start off by saying they're not dark elves anymore, but nothing here states that is indeed the case. I mean, do you think they stopped being dark elves simply because their two main sources of demon summoning left them? Morathi kicking the bucket (Sucked out of the old world) and Malekith running off to beat up Slaanesh.

Were you of the perception that the Dark elves used to be on the same side as chaos? Because it was pretty clear that they were using Chaos for their own benefit, and not the other way around. Servitude ain't their style. You serve them, they don't serve you. Dark deals with daemons, sure. Hiring marauders, fine, but an alliance with Chaos as a whole? Unlikely (Morathi might have had such aspirations, but she was always a bit messed up in the head)

So with the exception of Demon summoning, what exactly have they lost/given up that have made them less 'dark elfy' in age of sigmar? Yes, we're calling them Exiles now (Sort of. Really just Aelves) but that's just a brand. Calling a black cat a feline does not make it white. Is your argument that they're less evil now, and so they no longer count as "dark" aelves? Because, y'know, they're still pretty bad, and still operate very much like they used to. It doesn't matter why they do it (killing chaos wherever they can find it. Serving order, after serving themselves). It matters how they do it (As cruelly as they can get away with) - Dark elves have long been the poster boys of Lawful evil (If you're into alignments). I don't believe that has changed in any way in Age of Sigmar.

 

Anyway. Since we ended up with a lot of text, I'm just gonna go ahead and sum up what I'm arguing here, so we don't get lost in translation. 

You stated that dark elves were no longer around -> I stated that they were -> You stated that they were not, because Exiles are not dark elves -> I stated that Exiles are dark elves -> You stated that they had changed, and were no longer dark elves -> I stated that they were still dark elves. 

Is this a correct representation of our discussion so far?
 

[Menkeroth]

11 hours ago, Mayple said:

So.. When you say that their society unbelievable, are you really saying that they're not historically accurate? Because I can get behind that. If that's not what you're getting at, I'm still going to have to ask what exactly it is you find so unbelievable about it. Are you judging it based on human factors? Because they're not human, so socio-political, and psychological factors and such will be very different for them. You mentioned the high elven nobles and their constant scheming - part of the reason they are so into that is because their way of life is so high above the rest, they don't have to worry about anything but their own political position. No constant struggle for survival. No large threat constantly looming over their lands (only occasionally) - The dark elves add daggers and dark magic to that equation. My point being that these societies are so different from human societies because the minds that manage them are alien to ours.

They have to be alien to us, but seldom someone can write about any xenos without a subconscious human attitude, and GW is not one of those either. After all, they mostly describe others from human points of view, both in Old World and 40k.

11 hours ago, Mayple said:

I mean, do you think they stopped being dark elves simply because their two main sources of demon summoning left them?

No, I think they stopped because what had made them who they were ceased to exist in the new setting. Their ancestors from the World that was - yes, they were and still are the dark elves we knew and know, but these new guys don't look that much as they could. 

12 hours ago, Mayple said:

Were you of the perception that the Dark elves used to be on the same side as chaos? Because it was pretty clear that they were using Chaos for their own benefit, and not the other way around. Servitude ain't their style. You serve them, they don't serve you. Dark deals with daemons, sure. Hiring marauders, fine, but an alliance with Chaos as a whole? Unlikely (Morathi might have had such aspirations, but she was always a bit messed up in the head)

They were part of the Destruction forces in 8th edition, and there were examples of fighting alongside Chaos like in the "Triumph and Treachery". And don't forget cults of pleasure (Slaanesh in other words) lead by Morathi back in the day and their using of Chaos magic. And yes, how they use Chaos and not vice verse is clearly shown in the ET when Naggaroth is put to the sword by Valkia the Bloody. These arrogant meddlers were tolerated by the Dark Gods for a long time but no longer, and when Chaos wrath falls on its prey, it's like a hammer of immense strength.

12 hours ago, Mayple said:

So with the exception of Demon summoning, what exactly have they lost/given up that have made them less 'dark elfy' in age of sigmar? 

4

Their history that made them be who they were. Now they have all chances to become something more interesting and original.

12 hours ago, Mayple said:

Is your argument that they're less evil now, and so they no longer count as "dark" aelves? Because, y'know, they're still pretty bad, and still operate very much like they used to. It doesn't matter why they do it (killing chaos wherever they can find it. Serving order, after serving themselves). It matters how they do it (As cruelly as they can get away with) - Dark elves have long been the poster boys of Lawful evil (If you're into alignments). I don't believe that has changed in any way in Age of Sigmar.

No, my argument is that they behave differently and fight Chaos alongside Order though their methods can be questionable sometimes, but that's not only their way (Some SE stormhosts like Knights Excelsior don't really differ). You are right about Lawful Evil alignment, sure, and they can still be considered "dark" as the darker version of the Highborn elves, but they are not the same Old Wolrd ones anymore. 

12 hours ago, Mayple said:

Is this a correct representation of our discussion so far?

It is

[Mayple]

2 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

No, my argument is that they behave differently and fight Chaos alongside Order though their methods can be questionable sometimes, but that's not only their way (Some SE stormhosts like Knights Excelsior don't really differ). You are right about Lawful Evil alignment, sure, and they can still be considered "dark" as the darker version of the Highborn elves, but they are not the same Old Wolrd ones anymore. 

So, is it safe to say that we agree that dark elves are still around, doing their thang, although they've changed somewhat? (I don't believe they've changed enough to be unreckognizable, but that's besides the point  ) - in the sense that they exist under the blanket term Exiles (Or are they simply sub-factioned 'Aelves' now? GW's doublesplit makes it difficult to pinpoint the correct terminology on that one) that exist as darker versions of the highborn aelves. If not, I don't know how else to frame it that'd reach a conclusion, but eh What can you do. 

 

On an unrelated note, didn't GW change the whole pleasure cults worship of Slaanesh into a worship of some elven god or something along those lines? I vaguely remember reading something about that in the end times, which I thought was a bit stupid. I definitely prefered their worship of Slaanesh and general dark deals with beings they probably shouldn't deal with approach over a "Nah, turns out it was an elven god all along" or something. Maybe you remember this particular thing better than me.

 

15 minutes ago, Menkeroth said:

They were part of the Destruction forces in 8th edition

I missed 8th edition, unfortunately. Was this back when they were being led by Khaine-possessed Tyrion? Or did that happen afterwards? What other factions were part of the destruction forces? 

[Menkeroth]

1 hour ago, Mayple said:

So, is it safe to say that we agree that dark elves are still around, doing their thang, although they've changed somewhat? (I don't believe they've changed enough to be unreckognizable, but that's besides the point  ) - in the sense that they exist under the blanket term Exiles (Or are they simply sub-factioned 'Aelves' now? GW's doublesplit makes it difficult to pinpoint the correct terminology on that one) that exist as darker versions of the highborn aelves. If not, I don't know how else to frame it that'd reach a conclusion, but eh What can you do. 

It's safe, let's really use this conclusion, because as it turns out we didn't fully understand each other. I'm glad we do now  and yes, they are called Aelfs Exiles as a general race since legacy compendiums but since they are divided into sub-factions this term is seldom used. Maybe it will change with their battletomes, but even those two new elvish minis from the ST (Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih) don't have specific keywords apart from being "Aelves". 

1 hour ago, Mayple said:

On an unrelated note, didn't GW change the whole pleasure cults worship of Slaanesh into a worship of some elven god or something along those lines? I vaguely remember reading something about that in the end times, which I thought was a bit stupid. I definitely prefered their worship of Slaanesh and general dark deals with beings they probably shouldn't deal with approach over a "Nah, turns out it was an elven god all along" or something. Maybe you remember this particular thing better than me.

Not sure either. They retconned Khaine as an avatar of Khorne, I remember this from old versions of WH, but everything else...  Need to reread ET for that matter.

1 hour ago, Mayple said:

I missed 8th edition, unfortunately. Was this back when they were being led by Khaine-possessed Tyrion? Or did that happen afterwards?

It was a general divide of all WH races in terms of their alignment, like bad guys, good guys and neutral forces. Since dark elves were attacking and pillaging everyone else but first their "good" cousins, they became a part of the Destruction force.

1 hour ago, Mayple said:

What other factions were part of the destruction forces? 

Chaos, skaven, greenskinz, vampire counts. Order consisted of high elves, dwarves, Bretonnia, Empire, lizardmen and wood elves, and also there were neutral forces - ogres and tomb kings. 

[aquenaton]

Sooooo, now "Dark Elves" are a not very defined people, whose identity shall be established on the future as they get more attention, right?

I have not read everything about the new setting, but it seems that this people have many elements from their obscure past, but they seem subordinated (for now) to the Order alliance, but time will tell if they go back to their darkest ways, mantain something or completeletly change into something new.