Deathless minions and Undead Minions

[CanHammer-darren]

Necromancer ability Undead Minions (UM) and timing with regards to Deathless Minions(DM). 

 

do you do your DM before or after UM. And what's timing of it for wounds causing multiple damage? I know how I've been doing it. It's a little ambiguous in my opinion. Be interested to know how others play it

how I've been doing it;

necromancer takes wound (that does d6 damage)

fails armour save 

roll damage - rolls 6

roll deathless minions x6

saves 3. 

Remaining 3 wounds roll for UM

succeds on 2/3. Necromancer takes one wound. 

2 passed to nearby zombies which then suffer 2 mortal wounds (do they get deathless minion too?) and 2 dead zombies

[deynon]

No. The pasing is when you suffer a wound, not damage, so you have to pass before to roll for DM.

Technically if you roll for saving with the failed ones you don't anymore suffer wounds, but damages, so the passing wounds are to be made before to save

So 

1) takes wound

2) try to pass the wounds

3) saves the not passed wounds with the armour save of the necomancer and the passed wounds with the possibile save of the zombies

4) you apply the Deathless minions on both the Necromancer and the zombies based on the damages suffered.

[CanHammer-darren]

Have you suffered a wound before you make armour save?  

Wheres the damage roll in your example

[deynon]

6 hours ago, CanHammer-darren said:

Have you suffered a wound before you make armour save?  

Wheres the damage roll in your example

You have to take the wound to be able to make an armour save, but you have to pass the wound before to try to save it.

The damage apply when you fail the armour save, so it's the point 4). When you failed the armour wounds at point 3) you suffer damage and you can save it with the deathless minion rule

[Squirrelmaster]

UM and DM are worded the same (or close enough), so trigger at the same time. As the controlling player, you can decide what order to use them in. Rules-As-Written you can indeed apply DM on the Necromancer first, them UM, then DM on the zombie if you pass it on successfully.

In fact if you have two Necromancers, they can bounce it back and forth between them until one of them passes a DM roll or fails an UM roll.

It would probably be considered gamey to do that, but it's not really OP.

@deynon It's confusing, but Rules-As-Written a successful "To Wound" roll causes damage, not wounds, and "Determining Damage" actually decides how many wounds you suffer. A model does not suffer wounds until after damage has been calculated, which is why rules like Deathless Minions and Undead Minions apply then.

[deynon]

7 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said:

UM and DM are worded the same (or close enough), so trigger at the same time. As the controlling player, you can decide what order to use them in. Rules-As-Written you can indeed apply DM on the Necromancer first, them UM, then DM on the zombie if you pass it on successfully.

In fact if you have two Necromancers, they can bounce it back and forth between them until one of them passes a DM roll or fails an UM roll.

It would probably be considered gamey to do that, but it's not really OP.

@deynon It's confusing, but Rules-As-Written a successful "To Wound" roll causes damage, not wounds, and "Determining Damage" actually decides how many wounds you suffer. A model does not suffer wounds until after damage has been calculated, which is why rules like Deathless Minions and Undead Minions apply then.

Nope, there are the wounds caused by the roll to wond and the wounds related to the damage.

You suffer a wound when you are wounded by the roll to wound, but the wound after the save is the damage wound.

If it would be as you say you could bump three times the wounds, 1 when you uffer the wounds and then again when you suffer the damage, final when you fail the deathless minion... a bit too much...

Adding more if you consider only the last sentence that you are referring it's not ambigouous, but you determine the wounds only as the ones related to the damage itself.

 

Anyway I agreee that the wording can cause problems about

[CanHammer-darren]

Personally needs FAQ 

[Sception]

There is ambiguity in the rules regarding the term 'wound' which is used both for to-wound rolls before saves or damage determination and for the actual wounds suffered after armor saves and damage.  Deynon's interpretation makes a lot more sense narratively, so it is what my regular opponents and I usually play with, but the textual/mechanical basis for preferring that interpretation over the other isn't strong.  As such, whenever I play with a necromancer against strangers I try to remember to bring up the subject before the game and will go with whichever interpretation my opponent prefers in order to avoid arguments and debates during the match.

An FAQ or errata on the subject would be greatly appreciated.  What would be even more helpful would be a second edition of Age of Sigmar that, among other things, cleared up this particular confusion by not using the same term 'wound' for two distinct rules constructs.

[Squirrelmaster]

RAW:

Quote

2. Wound Roll: Roll a dice. If the roll equals or beats the attacking weapon's To Wound characteristic, then it causes damage…

No mention of causing a wound there. A successful "To Wound" does not cause a wound, despite the name, because no rule says it does.

Quote

4. Determine Damage: Once all the attacks made by a unit have been carried out, each attack inflicts a number of wounds equal to the Damage characteristic of the weapons.

So you don't suffer wounds until after damage has been determined.

There is also a relevant FAQ, that confirms this:

Quote

Q: When a model/unit has a special saving throw arising from an ability that can be used whenever they suffer a wound or mortal wound, is it taken after normal saves but before damage is determined (i.e. between steps 3 and 4 of the attack sequence)?

A: No, such special saving throws are taken after damage is determined and as each individual wound is allocated to a model that has such a save (see ‘Inflicting Damage’ on the rules sheet). For example, a unit of Phoenix Guard is attacked by a Cannon. The Cannon successfully makes its hit and wound rolls, and the Anointed fail their save roll. The Cannon therefore inflicts D6 wounds in step 4 of the attack sequence. The roll is a 4, inflicting 4 wounds on the Phoenix Guard. The attack sequence is now over, and the wounds are set to be inflicted on the Phoenix Guard. However, the Phoenix Guard’s Witness to Destiny ability means they ignore a wound or mortal wound on a roll of 4 or more, so as each wound is allocated, a dice is rolled, and on a 4 or more it is ignored.

Both "Deathless Minions" and "Undead Minions" are worded this way, so the FAQ applies to both of them. The both trigger, simultaneously, after damage has been determined and allocated.

When two abilities trigger simultaneously, the controlling player decides the order. Therefore, you can choose whether to use DM first, or UM.

If you pass the UM roll, then the wound is negated, and a nearby unit suffers a wound instead. As written, this is a different wound, so it can trigger DM and/or UM a second time, if the other model has those rules.

[Sception]

That seems like the best mechanical interpretation at this time, then, though I still prefer the other version among my friends due to making more narrative sense, and would certainly look askance at anyone who rolled the death save, then rolled to pass the wound after failing it, then roll for the death save again after passing off the wound.  Whether there's textual justification for it or not, that just feels gamey and exploitative.

[Sasha Shadowhive]

On 5/9/2017 at 8:39 PM, Squirrelmaster said:

UM and DM are worded the same (or close enough), so trigger at the same time. As the controlling player, you can decide what order to use them in. Rules-As-Written you can indeed apply DM on the Necromancer first, them UM, then DM on the zombie if you pass it on successfully.

In fact if you have two Necromancers, they can bounce it back and forth between them until one of them passes a DM roll or fails an UM roll.

It would probably be considered gamey to do that, but it's not really OP.

@deynon It's confusing, but Rules-As-Written a successful "To Wound" roll causes damage, not wounds, and "Determining Damage" actually decides how many wounds you suffer. A model does not suffer wounds until after damage has been calculated, which is why rules like Deathless Minions and Undead Minions apply then.

Actually you can't. Even though the UM and DM combi is indeed insanely overpowered, since you can DM, then UM then DM again for the receiving unit, you can't have 2 necromancers pass it around, because UM specifically says you pass it on to a SUMMONABLE unit. Necromancer is not summonable, therefor, you can't pass it on to a second necromancer. 

[Sedraxis]

The way I see it UM always triggers first.

UM reads "before you allocate a wound..."

DM reads "roll a dice each time you allocate a wound..."

So to get the DM save you must have already allocated the wound and therefore cannot use UM after.

[Honk]

Very clear FAQ on this for starters of AoSv2 (First cohort ceaseless virgil rule)

do your normal armor save, failing that, you have to generate the amount of wounds to be suffered (x2/d3/etc.). then you have a certain amount of wounds and mortal wounds to be allocated to your necro. BEFORE you do so, he can pass them onto a summonable unit within 3“ on a 4+... then the wounds are allocated to specific models and can be ignored via deathless minions.

no more Nagash immune to mortal wounds shenanigans...

[Squirrelmaster]

On 10/3/2018 at 4:38 PM, Sasha Shadowhive said:

Actually you can't. Even though the UM and DM combi is indeed insanely overpowered, since you can DM, then UM then DM again for the receiving unit, you can't have 2 necromancers pass it around, because UM specifically says you pass it on to a SUMMONABLE unit. Necromancer is not summonable, therefor, you can't pass it on to a second necromancer. 

See, this is why it's worth checking the date on posts. Back in May 2017 the rules were different.

[Honk]

Whaaaat???

maybe that’s why my opponent complained about Nagash summoning 2 dragons and 2 gheists start of turn 1 yesterday

?

[RuneBrush]

Guys, locking this thread - appreciate we all love a good bit of Necromancy, but let's stick to skeletons