Swallowed Hole

[WoollyMammoth]

Stardrake (any) Cavernous Jaws ability:
"After this model piles in, but before it attacks"

Is this considered instantaneous with the attacks? The problem is that, you could potentially swallow all of the models whom are within 2" of you, leaving you out of range. This is silly, to limit yourself with your own ability. You can easily eat everyone within 1", therefore you lose your claw attacks.

Also, if this is some kind of sub-phase, weird things could happen to remove models in range. For example, Blood Warriors get to (despite being eaten) pile in and attack you, and a Lord Celestant's shield could then kill some more models, further removing you from combat.

Seems like, to avoid nonsense, this should be considered happening at the same time as the attacks.

Also what about the tail attacks? Is your opponent allowed to remove models to get their unit out of 3" so that you cannot hit them with the tail? Or should your opponent simply be tallying wounds/kills through all of your attacks and abilities and remove all models at the very end?

[BaldoBeardo]

Effect is instant.

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[BURF1]

On 4/19/2017 at 1:16 PM, rokapoke said:

This ability doesn't allocate any wounds -- it just removes models. Wounded/unwounded is irrelevant here.

Also because the controlling player gets to determine the slain models. Basically, the stardrake picks what it eats.

[boombyeyeah]

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5 hours ago, Regabond said:

You can also pile in 0 inches

if i understand the errata right, you cant:

Q: If you are already in contact with a model, do you still get to pile in and rotate around the enemy units? A: No.

 

[Regabond]

You can also pile in 0 inches.

This is a really powerful ability as its one of the only(few?) abilities that lets the active player kill a specific model with no say from the opponent. It appears to work just fine for killing command and heavy weapon models from within a unit. Rules seem to pretty clearly try to point out that this is not an attack though, just an ability which can cause the death of specific models.

The interaction with Blood Warriors is interesting, but seems to work out with Blood Warriors still getting their attacks.

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No Respite: If a model from this unit is slain in the combat phase, you can make a pile in move and then attack with the model before you remove it.

Compared to the below. The pile in only happens during the combat phase and cavernous jaws does cause the model to be slain so the first two parts of No Respite are triggered, which should cause the result of No Respite to occur.

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Cavernous Jaws: After this model piles in, but before it attacks, pick an enemy model within 3" and roll a dice. If the result is greater than that model’s Wounds characteristic, it is swallowed whole and slain. You can do this as many times as shown on the damage table above

I imagine that the Blood Warriors are stabbing the Stardrake as it is actively eating them.

 

The Stardrake has quite a few offensive abilities and attacks and with the way they are used/triggered, you can't expect to be able to use all of them at all times. I think that's just part the uniqueness of the Stardrake's profile.

 

[Jharen]

I suspect "After this model piles in" simply means "after the pile in sub-phase", and not that you actually have to complete a pile-in movement.  It's simply telling you that it happens between the normal piling-in and attacking actions of the combat phase.  So yes, I'd say you can use it without actually physically piling the model in.

It would be quite different if the wording was "If this model piles in". 

[boombyeyeah]

Can I use Cavernous Jaws when the stardrake already has base contact and thous cant pile in? My opponents are asking... if so, i might need a Knight-Heraldor to let him retreat and charge again.

[WoollyMammoth]

 I asked on Facebook if this attack/ability is resolved at the same time as attacks, and they passed the feedback along.

[WoollyMammoth]

Yes you get to pick models, so you could eat command.

Whether it counts as an attack is my point. The rules says "but before it attacks". So this is an ability before attacks and as such models seem to be removed immediately.

Its not a huge deal, you just have to make sure to get in on at least 4 models within 3". You can choose the models so that there is still one within 1", or forego attempting it to block out your extra attacks. They are also resolved one at a time, which you should do to avoid issues.

My problem is that, I ate some blood warriors, who in turn attacked, which then let me re-roll 1s to then kill more - this time my opponent gets to remove and thereby getting me further than 1" from the opponent. Since this happens AFTER pile in, I'm screwed out of my attacks.

Unless the ability counts as "an attack before but at the same time as normal attacks" and therefore models are not removed until all my attacks have been finished. Unfortunately the only evidence is that it is an ability which happens before attacks and as such the casualties are resolved before the attacks start.

[Arkiham]

21 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

This ability doesn't allocate any wounds -- it just removes models. Wounded/unwounded is irrelevant here.

So sniping of command is fine then , it's simple enough really, you just eat the guys behind the front row

[rokapoke]

21 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

I guess, it also then allows the stardrake owner to snipe command characters as the drake player picks who gets eaten. 

Does this then mean you forgo the normal distribution of wounds to already damaged characters. As they have chosen to eat three guys at the front, it is therefore those three guys who are removed.

This ability doesn't allocate any wounds -- it just removes models. Wounded/unwounded is irrelevant here.

[Arkiham]

I guess, it also then allows the stardrake owner to snipe command characters as the drake player picks who gets eaten. 

Does this then mean you forgo the normal distribution of wounds to already damaged characters. As they have chosen to eat three guys at the front, it is therefore those three guys who are removed.

[Nico]

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You don't resolve casualties/wounds until the end of the phase, you're doing it wrong. 

I know where you're coming from, but this rule only applies to attacking and the Jaws are not an "attack". They aren't listed as a weapon (despite having a damage table) and this is a specific special rule (cf. Starsoul Maces, which are listed as a weapon despite having a special rule).  

You don't wait until the end of the hero phase to remove the models that a Lord of Change zaps with its two spells. 

[armisael]

16 hours ago, FRoper said:

It seems pretty self explanitary,

- you choose Star Drake to attack:

- preform Cavernous Jaws attack (opposing player removes models)

- rest of Star drakes attack

This means that an opponent could remove those models in base contact limeting you contact and thus attacks. It can end up removing you from combat, it has happened to me, he charaged his stardrake uinto a unit of skels on a piece of terrain, so he could only get in contact with 1 of them. killed the 1 skel with the jaws ability and ended up out of combat, so th rest of the attacks (1inch) could not work, as he was out of range.

When star drake use Cavernous Jaws. The player is the one who pick the model. Not opposing player.

 

[KnightFire]

7 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Yeah as it still happens in the combat phase, it just happens before your  normal ones

That doesn't make it an attack though. 

[Arkiham]

49 minutes ago, FRoper said:

However, would it be classed as an actual attack, becuase it does not have a hit characteristic, or wound characteristic. so would you count it as an attack???

 

Yeah as it still happens in the combat phase, it just happens before your  normal ones

[FRoper]

However, would it be classed as an actual attack, becuase it does not have a hit characteristic, or wound characteristic. so would you count it as an attack???

 

[Arkiham]

13 hours ago, FRoper said:

It seems pretty self explanitary,

- you choose Star Drake to attack:

- preform Cavernous Jaws attack (opposing player removes models)

- rest of Star drakes attack

This means that an opponent could remove those models in base contact limeting you contact and thus attacks. It can end up removing you from combat, it has happened to me, he charaged his stardrake uinto a unit of skels on a piece of terrain, so he could only get in contact with 1 of them. killed the 1 skel with the jaws ability and ended up out of combat, so th rest of the attacks (1inch) could not work, as he was out of range.

This is wrong, you remove casualties after all damage has been done so all attacks count.

[Cagos]

On page 4 in The Rules right under "inflicting damage" it says: "After ALL of the attacks made by an unit have been carried out, the player commanding the target unit allocates any wounds that are inflicted to model from the unit as they see fit".

So all wounds are at the same time


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[WoollyMammoth]

This is two conflicting answers, you can see how this is confusing. One player would say one thing then another would say the opposite. Can someone direct me to the rule?

[Arkiham]

You don't resolve casualties/wounds until the end of the phase, you're doing it wrong. 

"so you ate 5 guys, ok sure, I'll leave them there until you finish attacking. You deal 10 more wounds from attacks ok and the Lord done 2 more, ok all done?"

"Yeah"

Right well all those models there die, and this guy has 1 left. *removes models*

Bad habits cause confusion.

I find it easier to remove models (or lay them down) and put them aside close by to count wounds dealt and for battleshock tests. As my opponent calculates all their damage.

[BaldoBeardo]

You get to pick up to 3 models within 3". You don't have to pick any.

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[FRoper]

It seems pretty self explanitary,

- you choose Star Drake to attack:

- preform Cavernous Jaws attack (opposing player removes models)

- rest of Star drakes attack

This means that an opponent could remove those models in base contact limeting you contact and thus attacks. It can end up removing you from combat, it has happened to me, he charaged his stardrake uinto a unit of skels on a piece of terrain, so he could only get in contact with 1 of them. killed the 1 skel with the jaws ability and ended up out of combat, so th rest of the attacks (1inch) could not work, as he was out of range.