SCE vs DOT woes

[AverageBoss]

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

Skyfires are really strong, I remember people complaining about my bow hunters.. and I was just not seeing the real effect on the table.. Skyfires are way more dangerous.

Hunters have rerollable 3+ saves, have 5 wounds a peice, and regenerate lost models without risk, can teleport, have better bravery, and do as much damage as Skyfires (though not of the mortal wound variety). Your opponent also loses 1 in every 6 models that tries to engage them.

[Bradifer]

10 minutes ago, Turragor said:

We must do as Warhammer TV Rob advises. 6 Heraldors.

Tootstrike SCE new way forward.

I would call this army "The Brown Note."

[Aezeal]

49 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Hunters have rerollable 2+ saves, ignore rend, have 5 wounds a peice, and regenerate lost models without risk, can teleport, have better bravery, and do as much damage as Skyfires (though not of the mortal wound variety). Your opponent also loses 1 in every 6 models that tries to engage them.

Wow my hunters are not 2 in save, do not ignore rend, do not regenerate automatically, can only teleport to sylvaneth wyldwoods that have to be summoned somewhere (and with a bit of terrain that gets hard) , damage not of the MW variety is thus not the same, and I've not seen people loose models that try to engage them either. 

Pure fantasy.

[AverageBoss]

18 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Wow my hunters are not 2 in save, do not ignore rend, do not regenerate automatically, can only teleport to sylvaneth wyldwoods that have to be summoned somewhere (and with a bit of terrain that gets hard) , damage not of the MW variety is thus not the same, and I've not seen people loose models that try to engage them either. 

Pure fantasy.

Sorry rerollable 3+ save (they will ALWAYS be in cover), that was a typo on my part. Ignoring rend was me getting them confused with other Sylvaneth units (correcting my earlier post).

I did not say they automatically regen, I said they can regen without risk (Regrowth). Fold Reality is used as a strength for Skyfires since it can be used on them, but there is a 1 in 6 chance the unit will be wiped out instead.

Teleporting into Sylvaneth Woods is HUGE, especially when you can place 3 at the beginning of the match.

3 Skyfires w/ Shaman average only 1.5 mortal wounds, so the damage between both units is comparable, especially with hunters ability to be fully functional independently without further investment.

Non-hero/monster/sylvaneth models that move into Sylvaneth woods (where the hunters will always be) roll a D6. Rolls of 1 kill whole models. Not fantasy at all.

They are one of the main reasons Sylvaneth are considered a top tier army, and the main reason they swept the AoS events at Crucible Orlando this year.

[rokapoke]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

Celestant Prime. Make him arrive turn 1, far away and in cover if you can (it's not a monster) and use this sweet comet on the ennemy caster (no line of sight or range required), and choose the damage roll. 3 other automatic wound. Boom, one shot. Plus damage around. And more each turn.

 

Actually, his Cometstrike Scepter attack has a range of 24". No LOS requirement, true, but it does have a range requirement.

[Immersturm]

@ledha You recon investing 140 points into one comet is worth it over the Teleport for a hard hitting unit? You can attempt to have the Vexillor arrive via Scions, drag a unit of Dracoths with him via the Teleport and be there to give them re-roll charge. A bit hard to pull off, but it might work. Other than that, the Celestant seems like a solid idea.

Having said that, isn't this getting a bit crowded? I usually play 1000-2000 points, depending on how much time I have. Throwing so many points just at heroes seems a bit iffy to me.

[ledha]

44 minutes ago, rokapoke said:

Actually, his Cometstrike Scepter attack has a range of 24". No LOS requirement, true, but it does have a range requirement.

True on that, my bad. Didn't changed many things in my games, since i start second. You just need to be 18" away of any caster, and 6" of the holder of the lantern of the tempest.

41 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

@ledha You recon investing 140 points into one comet is worth it over the Teleport for a hard hitting unit? You can attempt to have the Vexillor arrive via Scions, drag a unit of Dracoths with him via the Teleport and be there to give them re-roll charge. A bit hard to pull off, but it might work. Other than that, the Celestant seems like a solid idea.

Having said that, isn't this getting a bit crowded? I usually play 1000-2000 points, depending on how much time I have. Throwing so many points just at heroes seems a bit iffy to me.

With this one comet, the vexxilior will in average do the equivalent of one half-dozen mystical bolt and do more damage than lot of caster could do in a while game, and give you the sweet reroll to charge. I think it's way better than a single teleport after which you need to make a 9" charge. And against a tzeentch opponent, the unit who charged will be vaporised after by the spell splinger behind. Especially dracoth, who cry against mortal wound

the problem in your strategy is that scion of the storm (which i find unreliable) is in the MOVEMENT PHASE, and the teleport banner is in the HERO PHASE. So it's not feasible.

Like you, i don't like to have too many points in few heroes who die with ease, but vexxilor+celestant prime make a huge pressure against the opponent. Against an army who depend on few spellcaster, it's very good. Even if your 2 hero die just after, most of the tzeentch casters will have 1-2 hp left on average, and will be an easy shot for the judicators. 

Except against massed tzaangors, none of the tzeentch units are eextremely threatening in close combat. Liberator can handle nearly all of them. So i think you don't really need to spend point on expensive units like dracoth or paladin (except protectors), who are overkill and have a bad ratio wound/cost. Liberator, by sheer number of hp, are more resilient against spells and strong enough to clean acolytes, horror and hold their own against enlightened/skyfire in combat phase.

 

[Immersturm]

Fair enough, but there is still the question of whether the Meteoric Standard is any good against other armies that might crop up. And whether the re-roll charge range is any good if you are not running fast hitters like Dracoths. And using the luckstone on this one guy? 140 points and a relic slot to deal 3 wounds to one character and D3 to all others sounds weak.

Though I guess my biggest question every game is what combination of units to take. If I capitalize on heroes, I get singled out. If I run heavy hitters, I get tar pitted and outnumbered. If I run loads of BL units, the damage is sorely lacking.

[Requizen]

2 minutes ago, Immersturm said:

Fair enough, but there is still the question of whether the Comet Strike Scepter is any good against other armies that might crop up. And whether the re-roll charge range is any good if you are not running fast hitters like Dracoths.

Though I guess my biggest question every game is what combination of units to take. If I capitalize on heroes, I get singled out. If I run heavy hitters, I get tar pitted and outnumbered. If I run loads of BL units, the damage is sorely lacking.

Yeah, writing a good list is half the battle, for SCE more than most. Especially with the nerf to WB, we have to balance a lot of stuff. 

Personally I think a focus on Alpha Strike is very strong. We can slam down hard and fast with the best of them, especially with Hammerstrike and Skyborne (and perhaps Storm Heralds). The shooting lists and Vanguard lists seem to require a lot more finesse and setup, but potentially are up there as well.

[AverageBoss]

7 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Yeah, writing a good list is half the battle, for SCE more than most. Especially with the nerf to WB, we have to balance a lot of stuff. 

Personally I think a focus on Alpha Strike is very strong. We can slam down hard and fast with the best of them, especially with Hammerstrike and Skyborne (and perhaps Storm Heralds). The shooting lists and Vanguard lists seem to require a lot more finesse and setup, but potentially are up there as well.

I am a fan of Vanguard Wing myself.

I think its actually a bit easier to build a SCE list on the units and battalions side. Its which characters, and how many to take, that I find way more difficult.

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

Sorry rerollable 3+ save (they will ALWAYS be in cover), that was a typo on my part. Ignoring rend was me getting them confused with other Sylvaneth units (correcting my earlier post).

I did not say they automatically regen, I said they can regen without risk (Regrowth). Fold Reality is used as a strength for Skyfires since it can be used on them, but there is a 1 in 6 chance the unit will be wiped out instead.

Teleporting into Sylvaneth Woods is HUGE, especially when you can place 3 at the beginning of the match.

3 Skyfires w/ Shaman average only 1.5 mortal wounds, so the damage between both units is comparable, especially with hunters ability to be fully functional independently without further investment.

Non-hero/monster/sylvaneth models that move into Sylvaneth woods (where the hunters will always be) roll a D6. Rolls of 1 kill whole models. Not fantasy at all.

They are one of the main reasons Sylvaneth are considered a top tier army, and the main reason they swept the AoS events at Crucible Orlando this year.

ANY unit can be put in cover... I mean the same goes for skyfires.

REgrowth still needs me to get a mage and the mage nog casting other stuff.

If the woods are on the enemy side.. the enemy can just put troops in there.. if they are NOT there then teleporting there isn't very usefull anyway.. I mean these guys are archers,... tough to kill sure but have nothing to gain in melee. If I put the Hunters in the forest I place to start then others are not there (like dryads who NEED to be in there to be worth their points).

Well no further investment.. you've already mentioned reasons that include me using a mage to heal them, sacrifice the position in the forest to them etc etc. 

And shooting is only in your own turn. I think it's melee hunters that are stronger and if I get more I'll be sure to make them of the melee variety.

[AverageBoss]

3 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

ANY unit can be put in cover... I mean the same goes for skyfires.

REgrowth still needs me to get a mage and the mage nog casting other stuff.

If the woods are on the enemy side.. the enemy can just put troops in there.. if they are NOT there then teleporting there isn't very usefull anyway.. I mean these guys are archers,... tough to kill sure but have nothing to gain in melee. If I put the Hunters in the forest I place to start then others are not there (like dryads who NEED to be in there to be worth their points).

Well no further investment.. you've already mentioned reasons that include me using a mage to heal them, sacrifice the position in the forest to them etc etc. 

And shooting is only in your own turn. I think it's melee hunters that are stronger and if I get more I'll be sure to make them of the melee variety.

And Fold Reality also requires a wizard to cast, and not cast other stuff.

The woods don't go on the enemy side, they go on the flanks.

Regrowth is optional, just as Fold Reality is. Skyfires however need further investment in a Shaman to be worthwhile, Hunters do not.

Just because your Shooting Phase only occurs on your turn does not mean it should be disregarded (just as your Movement and Hero phases should not be). The Shooting phase is probably the strongest phase in the game currently, and most of the top tier lists have a heavy shooting base. 18x Skyfires + buffs, 12x Bow Hunters + buffs, and Thundertusk spam, are all top tier lists. Pure melee armies such as Iron Jaws, Fyreslayers, and Flesh Eaters as whole factions, have not performed consistently anywhere near well as the 3 former.

[Nico]

I was following the previous post until you described Fyreslayers as a pure melee army and your credibility dipped just a tad. Someone needs to be shot in the back by 30 Aurics and then double turned ?. Not to mention that the entire army are carrying throwing axes.

[AverageBoss]

4 minutes ago, Nico said:

I was following the previous post until you described Fyreslayers as a pure melee army and your credibility dipped just a tad. Someone needs to be shot in the back by 30 Aurics and then double turned ?. Not to mention that the entire army are carrying throwing axes.

Never been on the receiving end of that. And my only experience with the army is 1 guy who plays them who played classic Slayers in WHF. I honestly thought their shooting phase was about as eventful as VCs. It is definitely an army more geared towards melee though, and actually reading their warscrolls now, their shooting seems an afterthought.

And 30 Aurics is 600 points, so I would hope that would do something . Still nothing compared to the real shooting focused armies out there. Actually I would be far more scared of 60x Savage Ork Arrow Boys for the same point cost.
 

[Nico]

30 Aurics are down to only 480 points by the way - new points.

[kozokus]

13 hours ago, Turragor said:

I have a feeling (only a gut feeling) that the aetherstrike and stardrake list might do well against these rascals

You just want the Stardrake beeing great

The true question is how to be good against Skyfire, Thundertusks, Kunninrukk and Lion rangers at the same time.

I have fielded the the Special -1 to be hit-lantern and it protected me greatly against the fury of the Kunninrukk (Well i still failed to kill everybody but that is another story)

[Immersturm]

@Requizen The melee-based alpha strike is best satisfied by the old Skyborne Slayers, Hammerstrike, possibly Vanguard Wing and movement-enhancing effect like the trait that gives D3 unit a 5" move after deployment and the Heraldor. However, these lists really suffer from bubblewraps, which DOT have in abundance.

Ranged lists would probably be along the lines of Aetherstrike or either of the both Conclaves. These lists can overcome bubblewraps, but suffer from their low durability.

In order to make either approach viable against DOT, those issues must be tackled. The ranged variant can make good use of defensive prayers, stalward defender and the lantern of tempest. How would you stop melee pressure though?

The pressure variant, which would apply to me, seeing as I do not have any Vanguard units as of yet, needs a way to overcome bubblewraps or at least keep the key targets occupied until the pressure elements can overcome them, which should not take long. The Prime is a solid start, because he outranges the magic and can kill heroes in 2ish turns, while the melee elements delay. Anything else? We need a solid concept here, as opposed to singular tactics viewed in a vacuum

[Requizen]

1 hour ago, Immersturm said:

@Requizen The melee-based alpha strike is best satisfied by the old Skyborne Slayers, Hammerstrike, possibly Vanguard Wing and movement-enhancing effect like the trait that gives D3 unit a 5" move after deployment and the Heraldor. However, these lists really suffer from bubblewraps, which DOT have in abundance.

Ranged lists would probably be along the lines of Aetherstrike or either of the both Conclaves. These lists can overcome bubblewraps, but suffer from their low durability.

In order to make either approach viable against DOT, those issues must be tackled. The ranged variant can make good use of defensive prayers, stalward defender and the lantern of tempest. How would you stop melee pressure though?

The pressure variant, which would apply to me, seeing as I do not have any Vanguard units as of yet, needs a way to overcome bubblewraps or at least keep the key targets occupied until the pressure elements can overcome them, which should not take long. The Prime is a solid start, because he outranges the magic and can kill heroes in 2ish turns, while the melee elements delay. Anything else? We need a solid concept here, as opposed to singular tactics viewed in a vacuum

Well, you don't have to necessarily be all in on one or the other, too.

Firstly, Skyborne Slayers already has some good ranged options - it comes stock with a LC on foot and two units of Judicators, which together should have enough ranged punch to put down most non-monster Heroes.

Then, the way I run it with Protectors at 10 and everything else min, you're only sitting at 1360, which leaves plenty of room for Raptors, Prosecutors, or other ranged options. I've had success with Skyborne + Raptors + Venator + Relictor, though I may try to swap the Relictor for a Heraldor (toot toot), gives you a smashy Alpha Strike but enough ranged power to take out (or at least weaken) important targets.

Same goes for shooting lists. Like the aforementioned Aetherstrike + Stardrake, you can also do things like Aetherstrike + Hammerstrike (though it's pretty tight on points). While they're not as focused as taking a list of all one thing, these mixed lists can support themselves pretty well.

[Immersturm]

Okay, I conjured something up for 2k. This might take a while, but please, take a look.

Lord-Aquilor (200) - General, Trait: Staunch Defender, Artefact: Mirrorshield, Gryph-Charger Trait: Lithe-limbed
Lord-Relictor (80) - Artefact: Drakescale Armour, Prayer: Divine Light
Lord-Castellant (100) - Mystic Light: Lantern of the Tempest
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers, 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers, 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers, 1x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160) - Skybolt Bows, 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160) - Skybolt Bows, 1x Shockbolt Bows
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (320)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (180)
3 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (180)
3 x Aetherwings (60)
3 x Aetherwings (60)
3 x Aetherwings (60)
Thunderhead Brotherhood (80)
Vanguard Justicar Conclave (60)
Total: 2000/2000

This first one is a defensively shooty list. The buff stacking from the Heroes and the Thunderhead should keep the army fairly save from ranged attacks. Since they outrange magic, the shooty elements can take care of Heroes fairly well or focus on Skyfires instead. Liberators will hang back and catch melee pressure.

Lord-Aquilor (200) - General, Trait: Staunch Defender, Artefact: Mirrorshield, Gryph-Charger Trait: Lithe-limbed
Lord-Castellant (100) - Mystic Light: Lantern of the Tempest
Lord-Relictor (80) - Prayer: Bless Weapons
Lord-Relictor (80) - Prayer: Bless Weapons
15 x Liberators (300) - Warhammers, 3x Grandhammers
5 x Judicators (160) - Skybolt Bows, 1x Shockbolt Bows
5 x Judicators (160) - Skybolt Bows, 1x Shockbolt Bows
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (80) - 1x Stormsurge Tridents
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (80) - 1x Stormsurge Tridents
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (80) - 1x Stormsurge Tridents
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (320)
1 x Gryph-Hound (40)
3 x Vanguard-Palladors (220)
Vanguard Wing (100)
Total: 2000/2000

Another fairly shooty list. This one is more aggressive and will deal well with bubble wraps so that the Liberators can reach any big monsters and heroes and slap them silly. The big synergy here is the VW battalion effect, that allows the Liberators and Judicators to roll an additional wound roll when they hit with a 6+ and the Bless Weapons effect, which will bring down stuff just with the volume of attacks.

 

Now on to the melee-based lists:

Celestant-Prime (360)
Lord-Aquilor (200) - General, Trait: Cunning Strategist, Artefact: Mirrorshield, Gryph-Charger Trait: Lithe-limbed
Knight-Heraldor (120)
Knight-Vexillor (140) - Meteoric Standard
Lord-Relictor (80) - Prayer: Divine Light
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers, 1x Grandhammers,
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers, 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers, 1x Grandhammers
4 x Fulminators (480)
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (320)
Total: 2000/2000

This one is probably one of my favourites. It is an all-in list. Cunning Strategist allows the Fulmenators and possibly the Heraldor and Vexillor to get close if I have the first turn. The Liberators will attempt to Scion in close as well. The Hurricanes will focus on potential bubble wrap (I might take Bless Weapons for that on the Relictor). The Prime, Heraldor and Vexillor spread MW to kill Heroes or finish off bubble wrap. Then the Fulmenators (with the help of the Heraldor), any arriving Liberators, the Aquilor and the Prime attempt to charge (helped by the Vexillor as well, if he got close enough). The big disadvantage I see if the lack of Battalions, meaning that my first turn is not guaranteed to happen, wasting the Trait.

Celestant-Prime (360)
Knight-Vexillor (140) - Meteoric Standard, Treasured Standard: Lichebone Standard
Lord-Aquilor (200) - General, Trait: Staunch Defender, Artefact: Mirrorshield, Gryph-Charger Trait: Lithe-limbed
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers, 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers, 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammers, 1x Grandhammers
5 x Paladin Protectors (200) - 2x Starsoul Maces
5 x Paladin Protectors (200) - 2x Starsoul Maces
6 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (160) - 2x Stormsurge Tridents
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Hurricane Crossbows (320)
Hammerstrike Force (120)
Total: 2000/2000

This one is similar to the previous one, but probably with more staying power and less variance in its performance, but also less potential output and less mobility after the initial strike. Nothing else to say here, really. It hits stuff.

Let me know if any of those could have the potential to deal with DoT without becoming useless against other big boys around the block.

Cheers

[Ruben]

Would love to see how the last list perform against DoT. Keep us posted!

[Immersturm]

bump