Post nerf Tomb Kings and the rest of GA: Death

[swarmofseals]

If we assume that the proposed nerfs to certain Tomb Kings units (Settra, the Royal Warsphinx, the Necrosphinx, Necropolis Knights, and Screaming Skull Catapults) end up in the GHBII, I'm wondering what shifts we might see in competitive/semi-competitive death list building. 

As it is, the synergy between Settra, Royal Warsphinx, and Necropolis Knights makes this trio a no-brainer for a highly tuned Tomb Kings list. Russ Veal's UK master's list (that also did very well at Adepticon) is a very tight list. However, with the substantial points increases this list will no longer work as is. It'll balloon to 2600 points. 

With the key triad of Settra + Royal + NKs becoming so much more expensive, the door is opened for other combinations, possibly encouraging greater mixing between Tomb Kings and the rest of GA: Death.

It's struck me that Settra has some really nice synergy with non-TK death units, particularly things like Spirit Hosts, Mourngul, and even Crypt Flayers, all of which really benefit from the +1 to hit. With Necropolis Knights ballooning in points, Skeleton Chariots may have a place now. I did the math on these vs NKs and each one has a number of situations where it's better than the other. 

I also did a comparison between Settra and Neferata, who seems to be the current favorite Big Bad general in competitive death lists (although Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon does make a few appearances, and we must note that some lists prefer a random unit champion with Ruler of the Night). I think one can make a case either way between Settra and Neferata. Initially, Settra is quite a bit better damagewise on the charge while Neferata has significant edge in subsequent combats. That said, Neferata will degrade with damage. Neferata is faster and more maneuverable (at least on medium to high health). Despite having fewer wounds, Settra is a lot tankier with 43 effective wounds to Neferata's 26.5. Settra is also more resistant to mortal wounds thanks to the extra 5+ save. That said, Neferata's healing gives her an extra 4.8 effective wounds each time the ability triggers. So after four triggers she passes Settra. 

Both of these characters have an impressive set of additional abilities. Neferata's dagger abilities will occasionally squeeze a few extra wounds out in combat, but her spells and command ability are incredible. Settra's incantation and command ability (plus any other mummy commands that you can activate) are likewise extremely powerful. 

The fact that there is a legitimate question about which one of these is better makes me think that Settra's new point cost is about right.

 

What do you guys think? With the new changes can you imagine more mixing between Tomb Kings and other Death units (considerations of model availability notwithstanding)?

[Bradifer]

Well for starters, this won the recent Heat 2:

1st place. John Kiddell

Settra
Tomb Herald
Tomb Herald
Liche Priest
Necromancer
12 chariots
10 horsemen
Mortis engine
3 Necropolis knights

(Source: http://baddice.co.uk/grand-tournament-heat-2-results-top-3-lists-aos-daily-56/)

Leaders
Settra The Imperishable (460)
Tomb Herald (100)
Tomb Herald (100)
Liche Priest (120)
Necromancer (120)
Battleline
6 x Skeleton Chariots (280)
6 x Skeleton Chariots (280)
10 x Skeleton Horsemen (200)
Units
3 x Necropolis Knights (240)
Behemoths
Mortis Engine (180)

Pushing this into GHB 2.0 Trial Points comes to to 2080/2000.

Note: Not sure how Chariots + Units were configured. Are you even allowed to go up 12 chariots? Is it good?

Neferata is cool and all, but I still think VLoZD is much better in comparison. 

• 14 wounds vs 11
• 4+ save vs 3+
• VLoZD simply hits harder, more consistent.
• VLoZD has a short but effective ranged attack that triggers big battleshocks if you're lucky w/ D6 damage.
• Neferata heals more, but requires consistency via killing small infantry, not your general's best use of points.
• Neferata's -1 to hit aura is amazing, but unfortunately she can still get shot to death from enemies outside the bubble.
• VLoZD gets a burst of healing via chalice.
• VLoZD also gets command trait. This is ENORMOUS for death. Unlike order's poo poo traits, Death's are very impactful. Settra has his own ROTN 5+ save.
• Spreading that save and having enough wounds/save/death save triggers to survive and allow your buffs to persist is what lets the rest of the Death army make it into combat and start winning attrition war via regeneration & healing.

Refocusing back to Settra...I think his most impactful ability was launching a death unit with a Sayl the Faithless-style-18" flying movement. That is an ARMY DEFINING ability. Units don't get to shoot at your settra if there is a Mourngul or 40 skeletons in their face within 1 turn. And based on the battle reports from Russ via Facehammer podcast, using Settra's prayer has lots and lots of other utilities, from throwing units into your opponent's take and hold objective, throwing heroes into three places of power, throwing slow units onto blood and glory objectives on the last turn, throwing the tomb herald in range to regenerate +1 deathrattle model.

Point being, one general with so much movement utility and decent in combat, while also buffing offensive potential of your units (doubly so if multiple command abilities go off) is a good starting ground for a Deathrattle based army.

------------

I think we should look at the potential of a list that has Settra's slingshot prayer + Abyssal Terror's slingshot spell to be a turn 1 charge army.

• Settra The Imperishable (460)
• Vampire Lord On Abyssal Terror (300)
• Total: 760/2000

That's pretty expensive start to an army without having any meaty pieces to it. But here's a try:

Settra The Imperishable (460)
- General
Vampire Lord On Abyssal Terror (300) - Deathlance
Necromancer (120) - Artefact: Cloak of Mists and Shadows
40 x Skeleton Warriors (320) - Ancient Spear & Shield
40 x Skeleton Warriors (320) - Ancient Spear & Shield
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80) - Ancient Blades
Mourngul (400)
Total: 2000/2000

That seems like 3 hammers + 3 heroes. Not necessarily enough pieces for the game of chess. I really doubt the Abyssal terror is necessary if you have Settra as the general. I've also never played with Chariots, but they seem decent on the charge. The Chariot's in that winning list really just seem like Necro Knight replacements still @5 wounds each. Except there is just 0 mortal wound output now. Plus the 40 man skelly blobs would have to conga line all the way back to Settra to get the +1/+1.

What if we look at primarily Settra + Deathrattle + Rend-2/MW.

Settra The Imperishable (460)
- General
Tomb Herald (100) - Artefact: Cloak of Mists and Shadows
Necromancer (120)
6 x Skeleton Chariots (280)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (320) - Ancient Spear & Shield
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80) - Ancient Blades
6 x Spirit Hosts (240)
Mourngul (400)
Total: 2000/2000

If you drop Mourngul + Spirit Hosts and some number of Skeleton Warriors, you have points to work with, but then you're honestly just getting closer to the 1st place list from Heat 2. The Necroknights are more expensive but I still don't think they're bad.

Well there's a few attempts at starting the lists.

[FRoper]

My current army, is nighthaunt. so i am expecting Mournguls, to get a pounts increase.

4x cairn wraiths

4X Spirt Hosts (units of 6)

2X Mournguls

Settra is amazing for his points. Neferata really needs a 3+save or some additional defence as she is currently to squishy. Vampire lord o Zombie drag is good and works well, and is far more survivable than neferata.

The tomb hearlds combined with the banners on the chariots are amazing and works well together.

 

[CoffeeGrunt]

Tbh it's hard to say until we see the rest of the changes. It may be that the Deathlords as a whole get a load of much-needed points decreases, or that the VLoZD gets a bump up. Heck, they may even change how Allegiance Abilities and Command Abilities work, opening them up to named characters, or giving named characters a set default one like in 40K.

[Nico]

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• VLoZD also gets command trait. This is ENORMOUS for death. Unlike order's poo poo traits, Death's are very impactful. Settra has his own ROTN 5+ save.

If you are playing Death at 2,000 points and not using the 5++ Ward save bubble, you're playing it wrong*. There are no exceptions. If you take Red Reaper, you're crippling your army. If you take Neferata, she's dead turn one to 18 Skyfires (or 27 if you're Mediocre Joe) or two Snowballs and a Blood Vulture. You're Death so you have no credible way of ensuring you go first if you take such a hero (single drop armies are what other Grand Alliances do). 

The option of using Tomb Heralds as battery packs for Neferata and Mannfred (at a cost) was denied to them by the December FAQ and that was the last straw for either of them pending a new Battletome. Frankly they need something (it can even be something overcosted) that gives them at least one battleround worth of protection against their heroes being sniped.

I've written a Nagash list which might be somewhat competitive, but even that relies on someone else being the general and projecting the 5++ back onto Nagash (even though his Command Ability is great). Otherwise your general will very likely will die turn one (even Nagash could die against some Pew Pew spam if you rolled badly, which is somewhat absurd). Under the SCGT pack, that's a huge problem (general is the scoring unit in one Battleplan, heroes are in others, plus you need general to be able to use your Agenda cards or block your opponent from using their ones).

Quote

It's struck me that Settra has some really nice synergy with non-TK death units, particularly things like Spirit Hosts, Mourngul, and even Crypt Flayers, all of which really benefit from the +1 to hit. With Necropolis Knights ballooning in points, Skeleton Chariots may have a place now. I did the math on these vs NKs and each one has a number of situations where it's better than the other. 

Settra's speed buff doesn't work on a Mourngul. 

The points changes were savage and had the clear purpose of making the affected units completely unplayable in AoS - thus killing TK. They have succeeded in this purpose. For all intents and purposes give up on using any of the affected units, especially the VLoAT - simple question - is he worth the same as a Lord of Change?

This is even more the case now that the meta has swung into a Skyfire, Raptor, Bow Hunter pew pew spam bunker meta, all of which are at least soft counters to Necropolis Knights with their 5+ saves (4+ in melee). Aetherwings now hard counter Tomb King fire in a cannon ball lists as well.

The recent victory at Heat 2 was with the old points (and I'm still astonished that he won it with that list). Kudos! 

 

*Please prove me wrong. Consider this to be friendly if firm advice.

[Nico]

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It's struck me that Settra has some really nice synergy with non-TK death units, particularly things like Spirit Hosts, Mourngul, and even Crypt Flayers, all of which really benefit from the +1 to hit.

While generally true, this buff is still inferior to the value of the 5++ ward for the negative grind and hold objectives strategy that Death have remaining to them.

It also doesn't work on Crypt Flayers, which require a natural 6 - there are too many instances (including in new content) where rules specify a natural 6 for this to be accidental (I've changed my mind on this one). Perhaps they will amend it in a future FAQ.

[Nico]

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Tbh it's hard to say until we see the rest of the changes. It may be that the Deathlords as a whole get a load of much-needed points decreases, or that the VLoZD gets a bump up.

A points increase would be absurd. He hits like a damp pillow unless he uses his buff on himself, which is not the idea of a command ability!

He's not ubiquitous because he's undercosted, he's ubiquitous as there are literally no other credible options. The GKoTG could be an option, but the command ability is (a) in the bottom third of all command abilities; and (b) compounds the risk of losing the general turn one, as it would also leave unused reinforcement points - you would have to refrain from casting your Warscroll spell for one of the Wizards to summon some other unit on instead (and Death need every one of their spells and don't have many 2 spell casters - all of which are named characters).

[Nico]

Rant over - New Sepulchral Guard coming for Shadespire! Boom.

[Bradifer]

MRW the thread is a room full of Nico's.

[LJ26]

So Crypt flayers don't lose thier mortal wound output to - 1 hit modifier? Just realized it doesn't say "6 or more"

[mmimzie]

Currently death has a big speed issue that makes doing thier job difficult for most of the faction.

 

Death as a faction are all about getting some where and staying there, but they struggle to get there. With the steady increase of units that can turn 1 charge or even at least turn 1 get in your face.

 

With storm cast teleports , skaven yeleporting, khnore running accross the table as if they deployed there, T.daemons having access to really easy summoning, and beast claws that can pop onto all the objects turn 1.  (Notable mentions, dragon blade battlion, and pheonixs)

 

On top of that most or all of these armies out deploy us so they can easily go first. Doing this you quickly end up not on the ibjective, and forced to squable over the objective for several turns before you can start scoring for most of the GH scenarios. 

 

So basicly we lack punch, and are all about taking objectives and holding hard, but then we arnt fast enough to get there in the first place.

[Nico]

Quote

So Crypt flayers don't lose thier mortal wound output to - 1 hit modifier? Just realized it doesn't say "6 or more"

I suppose that's an optimistic spin on it yes! Provided that you still in fact hit them, that should work. If it was -4 to hit hypothetically, it wouldn't make sense that you had missed and yet caused a mortal wound.

Take that Dryads and Ancients.

 

[swarmofseals]

5 hours ago, Nico said:

 

Settra's speed buff doesn't work on a Mourngul. 

The points changes were savage and had the clear purpose of making the affected units completely unplayable in AoS - thus killing TK.

The speed buff doesn't, but the hit bubble does and the Mourngul benefits from that quite significantly. You are absolutely right about the Crypt Flayers though, I didn't notice that subtlety on the warscroll. 

As to the point changes, I don't quite agree there. The affected units are clearly worse but I think completely unplayable is a stretch. 

I do agree that the meta increasingly shifting towards high range pseudo-artillery shooting lists is going to make using anything but a unit champion as a general dicey, but I'm also doubtful that GW will allow that trend to continue unchecked for very long. 

I'm also not concerned by tournament-specific considerations like the ones you mentioned for SCGT. Battleplans where only the general can score and agendas that require the general to be used just seem like an absolutely terrible idea given the unrestricted shooting in the game currently. 

 

[Bradifer]

We need a new Bat Swarm model that protects ALLIES within 15" rather than needing to be near the enemies.

I was looking at building Abyssal terror themed lists but man is he expensive. Comparing him to a LoC isn't fun

[mmimzie]

40 minutes ago, Bradifer said:

We need a new Bat Swarm model that protects ALLIES within 15" rather than needing to be near the enemies.

I was looking at building Abyssal terror themed lists but man is he expensive. Comparing him to a LoC isn't fun

Well so see this put me on a different point, and that is that death in many ways is great with summoning, but for various reasons this isn't enough.

Bat swarms are great when summoned as you can just throw them at your enemy to affect them with the bubble of -1 to hit.

Tomb banshees can be summoned into to shoot range.

Carin wraith are great access to heros who can later be used to take objects in scenarios like 3 pieces of power.  While also being tough and dirt cheap.

Zombies can be merged to bolster zombie units already engages in combat, turning your summoning points into wounds for you zombies. 

Summoning Dire wolves to make a wall that cut the table in half so you can get control of the table. WIth corpse cart that's a 4+ save on 10 wounds that take up 20/25" of the table, and can be further buffed with mystic shield and ruler of the knight.

Harbingers (who are over costed at best) can be summoned to charge target the turn they hit the table.

While, all of these are amazing tools in out tool box. The problem here is that honestly these situational options kind of only work in a zombie list as  used points can be just be spent to bolster your zombie units, but the biggest issue is that you have no battalions so your gonna be forces to go second, and your opponent is gonna take so much of the table your gonna have a hard time actually summoning anything where you want them. 

[TerrorPenguin]

6 hours ago, Nico said:

If you are playing Death at 2,000 points and not using the 5++ Ward save bubble, you're playing it wrong*. There are no exceptions. If you take Red Reaper, you're crippling your army. If you take Neferata, she's dead turn one to 18 Skyfires (or 27 if you're Mediocre Joe) or two Snowballs and a Blood Vulture

Nah, you can play it however you want it. Most people are never going to see an 18 sky fire list because their local club isn't chasing a meta or have many people able to drop a few hundred quid on each release.

Its a tournament issue. And even if you go to a tournament, if you're playing Neferrata you'll soon be away from those sky fires as they'll be on the top table and Neff will be nowhere near it  

[swarmofseals]

2 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Stuff about summoning

Summoning definitely has a lot of tactical appeal, but the problem is that it's currently trivially easy to shoot the wizards off the table and thus put you in a huge hole. 

[Nico]

@TerrorPenguin - I could have prefaced my comments with "At a Tournament" - obviously you can play it your way on other contexts. It's the biggest mistake I see Death players making.

[Nico]

Bat swarms could do with either a range increase or to affect nearby friendly units as you say. Right now enemy models can potentially walk backwards out of range of the bat swarm and then shoot over the top of them....

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Summoning definitely has a lot of tactical appeal, but the problem is that it's currently trivially easy to shoot the wizards off the table and thus put you in a huge hole. 

See this additionally this is not much of athing as with other factions as pretty much every hero worth bringing can summon.  As such in any army if you can pop every hero from an enemies list than you've probably lost regularless of if you've had summoning or not. 

Additionally, we have the toughest summoners out there. Necromancers get a 4+ ontop of thier T-shirt, and venefit from ruler of the night 

If your bringing a death rattle ljst qoth 5 wight lings and a necromancer... dont bring summoning. 

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

See this additionally this is not much of athing as with other factions as pretty much every hero worth bringing can summon.  As such in any army if you can pop every hero from an enemies list than you've probably lost regularless of if you've had summoning or not. 

Additionally, we have the toughest summoners out there. Necromancers get a 4+ ontop of thier T-shirt, and venefit from ruler of the night 

If your bringing a death rattle ljst qoth 5 wight lings and a necromancer... dont bring summoning. 

The problem is that not a lot of the heroes are really worth bringing to begin with. Because you are so heavily incentivized to make your general a unit champion to keep Ruler of the Night going you lose out on all of the excellent command abilities that are a key feature of so many death heroes. A few of the death heroes have good spells as well, but without access to any unique spell lore taking multiple heroes of the same type becomes much dicier. I do agree that death heroes are a bit tankier than most, but most good shooting lists can still take one off the table per turn without too much trouble and if you are stacking 4+ heroes just to summon then you are going to have a lot of points sunk inefficiently.

Furthermore, there is the problem of positioning. A lot of the summoning scenarios you describe involve summoning units in pretty forward positions. Summoning spells don't have infinite range generally, so you still need to get your summoner into position first. Some Death summoners are fast, but those are also expensive and huge targets. Necromancers which are very tanky for a wizard on foot (like you mentioned) are also super slow and need to be babysat by a unit to get the 4+ save that is so critical. Summoning a line of dire wolves to cut off the opponent is a neat trick, but your necromancer has to survive and get into position. And then you have to have that corpse cart in position too if you want to benefit from the increased save, which is also not at all trivial given that it's also super slow. 

I think if Death gets it's own spell lore and you get some real incentive to take a heavier set of spellcasters then summoning will be a lot more attractive. 

[swarmofseals]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

@TerrorPenguin - I could have prefaced my comments with "At a Tournament" - obviously you can play it your way on other contexts. It's the biggest mistake I see Death players making.

A very fair point -- I'd add too though that not all tournaments are created equal. The UK scene seems a lot more cutthroat than the US scene at the moment. LVO had few meta lists, and Adepticon clearly had some but they weren't completely running rampant. Of course this could all change very quickly!

[Nico]

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Necromancers which are very tanky for a wizard on foot (like you mentioned) are also super slow and need to be babysat by a unit to get the 4+ save that is so critical.

The Necbromancer can ride a Nightmare to make him movement 10".

[CoffeeGrunt]

What's with all this chatter about being forced to make unit champions into Generals? That's seemingly come out of nowhere yet is being declared as immutable law.

 

[Lord Cedric]

Adepticon is looking into not allowing named characters that perished from the Old World and not ported over to AoS Realms for next year.

This would really hinder Death Settra lists. But Sayl would also be a no.

Thoughts on this, anyone?

- Cedric

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