Lets Chat Wanderers / Wood Elves compendium

[Tidings]

5 hours ago, Cerve said:

In fact, that's a rule tha works at best with just a couple of units roaming on the edges, and the rest of the army doing the "anvil". 30x2 Eternal Guards with some Glade and Sisters in the back works nicely. Stationary Waywatchers are useful too. 

You should play the game on the board, fight for objectives, and use the teleporting thing only when you need it, and with a small part of your army.

GladeGuards works moving, so they are a good choice for that. Waywatchers can manage a good amout of damages even after move so they works fine too. Plus they are small size (1 model), pretty easy to teleport them wherever you want.

In some games, teleport is needed only for setting a bait. Some other times, for getting a good position.

But that's not a thing that you should do always and with all of your army. I've done it and my conclusion were the same: in this way, you can't fight for objectives. 

What you're saying is mostly true in principle, but there are some major flaws in trying to play this way. 

The main problem is that units can't 'roam' table edges unless they are already on a table edge. On top of that, they can only roam the SAME table edge unless the General has Stalker trait and is standing next to them. So unless you plan to roam with your general, your roamers are stuck on your table edges, which is almost entirely useless and predictable. And if you keep your general in position to send the roamers off, he's not with the rest of your army. On top of that, once they leave without the general, they are stuck on the table edge they arrived at. 

Additionally, Wanderers are very 'average' archers, relying on the Nomad Prince's reroll 1s to be a bit better than average. Using Arcane Bodkins without Lord of the Deepwood Host is just poor optimization for example. Everything in the Wanderer army encourages staying grouped up and standing still. Nothing is really capable of doing enough damage on its own, or surviving on its own. 

The real solution to succeeding with Wanderers in any match with objectives is to not teleport at all. And if this is what you decide to do, you're much better off just playing Mixed Order and having way more syngergies and units to choose from. 

[tea_wild_owl]

I finally finished my frostheart phoenix conversion for my Wanderer Army. he will be painted greenish to match the forest theme.  the 'rider' is a Wanderer druid stalking through the woods, controlling the Phoenix with a spirit (which he helds it in his hand)

[Cerve]

7 hours ago, Tidings said:

What you're saying is mostly true in principle, but there are some major flaws in trying to play this way. 

The main problem is that units can't 'roam' table edges unless they are already on a table edge. On top of that, they can only roam the SAME table edge unless the General has Stalker trait and is standing next to them. So unless you plan to roam with your general, your roamers are stuck on your table edges, which is almost entirely useless and predictable. And if you keep your general in position to send the roamers off, he's not with the rest of your army. On top of that, once they leave without the general, they are stuck on the table edge they arrived at. 

Additionally, Wanderers are very 'average' archers, relying on the Nomad Prince's reroll 1s to be a bit better than average. Using Arcane Bodkins without Lord of the Deepwood Host is just poor optimization for example. Everything in the Wanderer army encourages staying grouped up and standing still. Nothing is really capable of doing enough damage on its own, or surviving on its own. 

The real solution to succeeding with Wanderers in any match with objectives is to not teleport at all. And if this is what you decide to do, you're much better off just playing Mixed Order and having way more syngergies and units to choose from. 

Wanderers have a good shoot, that's not average. The thing is that they need to shoot multiple times in the game, and that's why you need and anvil (EG).

You should use teleport only with a small group of units. And yes, you can use your Warlord if you take that trait.

And the "not teleport at all" it's pretty false for me. Just don't teleport with your melee units nor Sisters, teleport with the right things. And keep the board. You don't have to fight in the side of your enemy, you have to fight in front of him AND in the side. Just poke him with teleport units, push him to follow your bait (it works great if your teleported range units are shooting on mele units on an objective), give him choices. If he ignore you, you're teleporting too less power, or you're winning. 

 

 

Teleport is an amazing tool, but is not mandatory. You should use it game per game, in the right situation. Sometimes you want to use it with some units, sometimes with others.

 

 

PS: Nomad Prince is good, but you can live even without his command trait. I listed 6 Waywatchers Lords, and I don't really miss that trait. 

PPS: I know no other traits than "Stalker of the Hidden Path"

 

[Tidings]

8 hours ago, tea_wild_owl said:

I finally finished my frostheart phoenix conversion for my Wanderer Army. he will be painted greenish to match the forest theme.  the 'rider' is a Wanderer druid stalking through the woods, controlling the Phoenix with a spirit (which he helds it in his hand)

Dude that is a fantastic conversion!! Love that you fixed the boring pose that it is by default, and I can't wait to see it painted!

[Tidings]

@Cerve I'm not disagreeing that teleporting selectively is the best way to use it. I'm just pointing out all the restrictions that make using it that way hard and inefficient. There are so many "must do this" "must be within this range" etc that it's not a super flexible tool. And it's usually not worth sending Wanderers out on their own since 200 points of Wanderers unsupported on their own will usually get crushed by 200  points of almost anything else. 

As for Wanderer's shooting, just look at Skyfires, Kunnin Ruk, Stormcast Judicators/Raptors, Clan Skyre, etc. All of those have longer range, better rend or mortal wounds, or much higher synergy and buffs than Wanderers. We shoot about as effectively as unbuffed Dwarves or Freeguild. That's not really something up for debate, just compare warscrolls and do the math. Kunnin Ruk formation is less than Waystone Pathfinders, less restrictive to use, and averages (with one unit of arrer boys) 70 wounds per turn. WAY more than Wanderers can do in any list. 

But yes, you're point is totally correct. Teleporting is a tool to use when needed, not something to rely on. We all agree on that. And in any game where the objective is just to kill your opponent, Wanderers basically auto-win.

[WABBIT]

8 hours ago, tea_wild_owl said:

I finally finished my frostheart phoenix conversion for my Wanderer Army. he will be painted greenish to match the forest theme.  the 'rider' is a Wanderer druid stalking through the woods, controlling the Phoenix with a spirit (which he helds it in his hand)

 

Awesome work @tea_wild_owl you've inspired me to do something similar with mine. I never liked the high elf Anointed rider anyway  

[Cerve]

1 hour ago, Tidings said:

@Cerve I'm not disagreeing that teleporting selectively is the best way to use it. I'm just pointing out all the restrictions that make using it that way hard and inefficient. There are so many "must do this" "must be within this range" etc that it's not a super flexible tool. And it's usually not worth sending Wanderers out on their own since 200 points of Wanderers unsupported on their own will usually get crushed by 200  points of almost anything else. 

As for Wanderer's shooting, just look at Skyfires, Kunnin Ruk, Stormcast Judicators/Raptors, Clan Skyre, etc. All of those have longer range, better rend or mortal wounds, or much higher synergy and buffs than Wanderers. We shoot about as effectively as unbuffed Dwarves or Freeguild. That's not really something up for debate, just compare warscrolls and do the math. Kunnin Ruk formation is less than Waystone Pathfinders, less restrictive to use, and averages (with one unit of arrer boys) 70 wounds per turn. WAY more than Wanderers can do in any list. 

But yes, you're point is totally correct. Teleporting is a tool to use when needed, not something to rely on. We all agree on that. And in any game where the objective is just to kill your opponent, Wanderers basically auto-win.

Well, that teleported 200 points should be there for making your game. You don't need to support them, they can die if you get your enemy out of position. But I got what are you saying.

Waystone Pathfinder sucks, tried it and it's nearly useless for his cost.

Kunnin Ruk shoot way better...with one unit. Our shoot is spread into the army, and it's more difficult to silenced it. That's our strong. We don't have one single strong volley, we shoot al the game costantly. Waywatchers are amazing, pretty easy to cover and not so easy to kill as someone can guess. 

GladeGuards shooting better tha most of the choices up there once. So they can compete. It's not casual that the UK winner had 20 Glade in list.

The thing is that our choices suck if they can't shoot in all the shooting phases. Silenced 3 Hunters with Bow is easy. Silence and entire Wanderer Army is way more difficult. Of course our shoot power is not focussed as other choices, we should be broken if that so! kunnin have 1 unit, Hunters are (normally) one-two units right now (the best choice in this meta, not more than that), Clan Skyre it's so weak in shooting that I neither consider that. Those flamers are more a special effect than a normal shoot, and it's way more counterable than the fire of Wanderers. Tzeentch is the only one that shoot better than us, but it...kinda weak against mobs. Tzeentch is great to focus down monsters and elite units, but kinda struggle (in fire) when he have to get down 2-3-4 20+ model units. 

Our fire is better for that purpose. Killing mobs is great for us. And we have GG and Waywatchers for armoured up enemies. 

 

The real challenge is that is pretty hard to manage multiple large blobs of shooting units. Almost for me. 

 

[Tidings]

46 minutes ago, Cerve said:

Kunnin Ruk shoot way better...with one unit. Our shoot is spread into the army, and it's more difficult to silenced it. That's our strong. We don't have one single strong volley, we shoot al the game costantly. Waywatchers are amazing, pretty easy to cover and not so easy to kill as someone can guess. 

GladeGuards shooting better tha most of the choices up there once. So they can compete. It's not casual that the UK winner had 20 Glade in list.

It's almost the opposite of what you said. Kunnin Ruk has one unit that shoots, but it is just as reliable in every hero and shooting phase. Glade Guard are used in tourny lists because of their ONCE per game Arcane Bodkins - nothing else. So Wanderers do tend to have one strong volley, where Kunnin Ruk just pumps out huge amounts of wounds every turn consistently. And actually, High Elf archers are 20 points cheaper than Glade Guard and more effective against anything except 3+ save and better. The Arcane Bodkins is the only thing that makes them good - other than that they are just peasant archers basically lol. That's why I say Wanderers are pretty average. 

I brought up Skyre because of Jezhails. Their 30" range, 3+ save and ability to rend and do MWs is a quality of shooting that the Wanderer army just doesn't have. If you want good elite ranged units, you have to ally in Longstrike Raptors.  

Waywatchers are fantastic, but -1 rend does not cut it for armored enemies. Until we have a unit with 30" range and some way to deal enough MWs, I'd say we are average. Too many other armies have shooting units that outperform ours. 

[Cerve]

46 minutes ago, Tidings said:

It's almost the opposite of what you said. Kunnin Ruk has one unit that shoots, but it is just as reliable in every hero and shooting phase. Glade Guard are used in tourny lists because of their ONCE per game Arcane Bodkins - nothing else. So Wanderers do tend to have one strong volley, where Kunnin Ruk just pumps out huge amounts of wounds every turn consistently. And actually, High Elf archers are 20 points cheaper than Glade Guard and more effective against anything except 3+ save and better. The Arcane Bodkins is the only thing that makes them good - other than that they are just peasant archers basically lol. That's why I say Wanderers are pretty average. 

I brought up Skyre because of Jezhails. Their 30" range, 3+ save and ability to rend and do MWs is a quality of shooting that the Wanderer army just doesn't have. If you want good elite ranged units, you have to ally in Longstrike Raptors.  

Waywatchers are fantastic, but -1 rend does not cut it for armored enemies. Until we have a unit with 30" range and some way to deal enough MWs, I'd say we are average. Too many other armies have shooting units that outperform ours. 

I'm saying that Kunnin Ruk is 1 unit, that you can block/manage. Wandarers are an army.

[Tidings]

Just curious, how do you manage them? Have you played against it? Last Kunin list I played against was a single unit of 30x arrer boyz. They had all kinds of buffs and are already 2 wounds apiece. His front line was a mix of melee specialists (black orcs, Brutes, a Giant, etc) that was charging at me asap, so I also had to deal with that before they overran me. What's the trick to managing such a top-tier list?

[Cerve]

2 hours ago, Tidings said:

Just curious, how do you manage them? Have you played against it? Last Kunin list I played against was a single unit of 30x arrer boyz. They had all kinds of buffs and are already 2 wounds apiece. His front line was a mix of melee specialists (black orcs, Brutes, a Giant, etc) that was charging at me asap, so I also had to deal with that before they overran me. What's the trick to managing such a top-tier list?

I don't know, never played with. I guess I will shoot down the Big Boss as first, or just focus the Kunnin.

[Tidings]

3 hours ago, Cerve said:

I don't know, never played with. I guess I will shoot down the Big Boss as first, or just focus the Kunnin.

That hasn't worked for me so far. He just blocks off teleporting anywhere near his characters and keeps them way behind all the other ****** that is killing you. Have yet to have a single turn of shooting on any of his characters, and I aggressively move for them. I tried killing the Arrer boyz but that's 60 wounds, couldn't do enough to survive the return fire. I did win the last game in a tourny I played against Kunnin, but that was because I had a Frostheart Phoenix that he couldn't kill. 

[Cerve]

8 hours ago, Tidings said:

That hasn't worked for me so far. He just blocks off teleporting anywhere near his characters and keeps them way behind all the other ****** that is killing you. Have yet to have a single turn of shooting on any of his characters, and I aggressively move for them. I tried killing the Arrer boyz but that's 60 wounds, couldn't do enough to survive the return fire. I did win the last game in a tourny I played against Kunnin, but that was because I had a Frostheart Phoenix that he couldn't kill. 

Mmm... did you thing that his 18" range should be useful for us? Seem's a short range for a 30 blob of Orks (in 32mm right?).

[Tidings]

3 hours ago, Cerve said:

Mmm... did you thing that his 18" range should be useful for us? Seem's a short range for a 30 blob of Orks (in 32mm right?).

That's only a 2" difference from our range. Kunnin Ruk players don't sit back defensively, because they have very powerful melee units to run forward. Their archers just run forward as well. They have to because they get to shoot at any unit in range during their hero phase (like Waystone Pathfinders, except without the 12" from Nomad Prince requirement). Since they tend to outdamage any other shooting army in the game, they benefit more from aggressive play than we do. 

[Aezeal]

On 16-10-2017 at 11:33 PM, Cerve said:

The major problem to the Wanderers army is to read.the rules of teleporting, and then belive that theme must be used all turns. 

But reading better the Wanderers Warscroll we can see a lot of rules that triggers only when you DON'T move.

 

The answer here is to play them as a normal army, and use the teleporting skill wisely. Not always, only when needed. And not with all the chioces.

In fact, that's a rule tha works at best with just a couple of units roaming on the edges, and the rest of the army doing the "anvil". 30x2 Eternal Guards with some Glade and Sisters in the back works nicely. Stationary Waywatchers are useful too. 

You should play the game on the board, fight for objectives, and use the teleporting thing only when you need it, and with a small part of your army.

GladeGuards works moving, so they are a good choice for that. Waywatchers can manage a good amout of damages even after move so they works fine too. Plus they are small size (1 model), pretty easy to teleport them wherever you want.

In some games, teleport is needed only for setting a bait. Some other times, for getting a good position.

 

 

But that's not a thing that you should do always and with all of your army. I've done it and my conclusion were the same: in this way, you can't fight for objectives. 

But doesn't mean that Wanderers sucks. Use it carefully, teleport carefully and only when you really need it. And never write an entire list for that. 

You need to stand in the ground.

If you play them as a normal army you will be out of range of the board edges by turn 2 and won't be able to use the rule anymore.. Can't remember the last time my Sylvaneth (for example) where near the table edge instead of near an objective.

Which is not saying that teleporting works.. I think we've established that it doesn't work for objective based games... so I'm basicly saying: wanderers are still not competative... there I've said it. With their new ability they play somehow like the should be played (somewhat..) but an army that is about ambushing, bleeding the opponent, then avoiding them  etc etc... is just not meant for a 5 turn game... this is also "realistic" but also annoying since the game is what it is... 5 turns, long movement ranges and short shooting ranges and   objective based.. 4 major characteritics of the game which just do not favor us. (waystone pathfinders being way to expensive and restrictive in model choices is another annoying thing since it's our only batallion).

[Aezeal]

btw tea wild owl: Great conversion.

[Frozenbeast]

Guys sorry if I jump in the conversation with a question that might seem out of context but am I the only one understanding the Realm Wanderers rule in this way: we agree on coming back WHOLLY within 6" on the table edge. But as per leaving the board from one table edge, the unit must be within 6" not  WHOLLY within 6" of a table edge, meaning I can have just one model within 6" of a table edge to trigger the ability. Again, am I the only one seeing the rule like this? I see two different wording in the rule meaning two different things. And yes we agree Wanderers are not competitive because we are missing too many things, but if I am interpreting this rule in the wrong way then Wanderers are not just not competitive, they are proper hot garbage!!!!

[Cerve]

6 hours ago, Aezeal said:

If you play them as a normal army you will be out of range of the board edges by turn 2 and won't be able to use the rule anymore.. Can't remember the last time my Sylvaneth (for example) where near the table edge instead of near an objective.

Which is not saying that teleporting works.. I think we've established that it doesn't work for objective based games... so I'm basicly saying: wanderers are still not competative... there I've said it. With their new ability they play somehow like the should be played (somewhat..) but an army that is about ambushing, bleeding the opponent, then avoiding them  etc etc... is just not meant for a 5 turn game... this is also "realistic" but also annoying since the game is what it is... 5 turns, long movement ranges and short shooting ranges and   objective based.. 4 major characteritics of the game which just do not favor us. (waystone pathfinders being way to expensive and restrictive in model choices is another annoying thing since it's our only batallion).

Again, you don't need to teleport everything. Sometimes, just some Waywatchers are enough. Sometimes, just a CC unit is enough (using it as a Tree-Revenants unit). 

It's like 40k (old editions): you have an army with every unit with Deepstrike; doesn't means that you MUST deepstrike with the entire army.

Wanderers are a standard army with this tool. Your choice to use it when and how.

 

Of course I'm not saying that we are  competitive. Just that we are not garbage.

[Cerve]

6 hours ago, Frozenbeast said:

Guys sorry if I jump in the conversation with a question that might seem out of context but am I the only one understanding the Realm Wanderers rule in this way: we agree on coming back WHOLLY within 6" on the table edge. But as per leaving the board from one table edge, the unit must be within 6" not  WHOLLY within 6" of a table edge, meaning I can have just one model within 6" of a table edge to trigger the ability. Again, am I the only one seeing the rule like this? I see two different wording in the rule meaning two different things. And yes we agree Wanderers are not competitive because we are missing too many things, but if I am interpreting this rule in the wrong way then Wanderers are not just not competitive, they are proper hot garbage!!!!

No you're right, you just need 1 model within 6" to teleport the unit. 

That's why I don't understand when people says that you are far from the game/objectives. With a right deploy, you can occupy a quite good part of the table with a single unit AND be able to teleporting anyway.

I mean, a lot of objectives are from 12"/18" from any edge, it's not so much when you have ranged weapons. Of course you need EG/Allies ON the objective, but you can shoot INTO the objective pretty easy.

[Frozenbeast]

Ok i exagerated a bit but yeah ok, that was a doubt striking my head now that i was reading the conversation. I think in general as we are so fragile someone was expecting a bit more from teleporting in general this is why people like @Tidings switched (wisely) to mixed Order. And I am sure GW limited it because they were afraid it would become just OP for a minor faction (they have always had these army Tiers even in WHFB wanting some facition weaker than others because secondary).  That said it becomes everyday clearer how Wanderers need allies or to be in mixed order in...order(sorry) to face some situations they cannot face on their own. And we see every game how "guerrilla" in this case is not what we intended (see the "wanderers wish list" tread)but walls of EG/DRYADS and  GG and other shooty thing from the back. This is how we play (or at least how I saw them played when I saw them). Is not fair, we agree, but this is it.

[Tidings]

20 hours ago, Aezeal said:

With their new ability they play somehow like the should be played (somewhat..) but an army that is about ambushing, bleeding the opponent, then avoiding them  etc etc... is just not meant for a 5 turn game... this is also "realistic" but also annoying since the game is what it is... 5 turns, long movement ranges and short shooting ranges and   objective based.. 4 major characteritics of the game which just do not favor us. (waystone pathfinders being way to expensive and restrictive in model choices is another annoying thing since it's our only batallion).

I could not have said this better myself. Completely hit the nail on the head - these are the fundamental issues with the design approach to the Wanderers' teleport/playstyle.

 

14 hours ago, Cerve said:

No you're right, you just need 1 model within 6" to teleport the unit. 

That's why I don't understand when people says that you are far from the game/objectives. With a right deploy, you can occupy a quite good part of the table with a single unit AND be able to teleporting anyway.

I mean, a lot of objectives are from 12"/18" from any edge, it's not so much when you have ranged weapons. Of course you need EG/Allies ON the objective, but you can shoot INTO the objective pretty easy.

That's way more restrictive than you're letting on though. Let's face it, your OWN objective isn't the one you need to be teleporting away from. The reality is anyone older than 10 will figure out that they can block you from teleporting along 60% of the table edges, preventing you from getting anywhere near an objective they hold. Then if you do teleport, you'll be facing a unit on the edge of their army that they don't care about and is far away from an objective. What are you gaining? literally nothing. I don't know who you are playing your games against but so far, every moderately competitive game of AoS with the new Wanderers has been like this:

Deployment finishes, opponent is spread out with roughly 16" between all units to prevent any teleporting. Wanderers are given the first turn, who then just sit on the Wanderer objectives.

Enemy sits on his objectives. If he has something very fast and killy/tanky, he will send it at the first Wanderer target that is moderately isolated. If he has tanky units, he might pressure one of the Wanderer objectives. In either case, the Wanderer army has to contend with a threat, and still has nowhere to teleport offensively since the entire other side of the board is blocked. 

Some fighting happens, and usually the Wanderers lose more points than the kill if they are not clumped together. If this happens, the Wanderers are forced to be more offensive sine they will now lose if the objectives are tied. If this doesn't happen, the entire rest of the game will comprise of very little movement or action, since moving off the back edge allows the Wanderers to teleport there. Meanwhile, every other army in AoS has units that are capable of soloing Wanderer units to gain a points advantage, so Wanderers are forced to remain clumped. 

This is what basically all my games have been against good opponents, When I play Order, it's a much more fun game because there is maneuvering, advancing, and literally anything other than just sitting in place. 

[Cerve]

14 minutes ago, Tidings said:

I could not have said this better myself. Completely hit the nail on the head - these are the fundamental issues with the design approach to the Wanderers' teleport/playstyle.

 

That's way more restrictive than you're letting on though. Let's face it, your OWN objective isn't the one you need to be teleporting away from. The reality is anyone older than 10 will figure out that they can block you from teleporting along 60% of the table edges, preventing you from getting anywhere near an objective they hold. Then if you do teleport, you'll be facing a unit on the edge of their army that they don't care about and is far away from an objective. What are you gaining? literally nothing. I don't know who you are playing your games against but so far, every moderately competitive game of AoS with the new Wanderers has been like this:

Deployment finishes, opponent is spread out with roughly 16" between all units to prevent any teleporting. Wanderers are given the first turn, who then just sit on the Wanderer objectives.

Enemy sits on his objectives. If he has something very fast and killy/tanky, he will send it at the first Wanderer target that is moderately isolated. If he has tanky units, he might pressure one of the Wanderer objectives. In either case, the Wanderer army has to contend with a threat, and still has nowhere to teleport offensively since the entire other side of the board is blocked. 

Some fighting happens, and usually the Wanderers lose more points than the kill if they are not clumped together. If this happens, the Wanderers are forced to be more offensive sine they will now lose if the objectives are tied. If this doesn't happen, the entire rest of the game will comprise of very little movement or action, since moving off the back edge allows the Wanderers to teleport there. Meanwhile, every other army in AoS has units that are capable of soloing Wanderer units to gain a points advantage, so Wanderers are forced to remain clumped. 

This is what basically all my games have been against good opponents, When I play Order, it's a much more fun game because there is maneuvering, advancing, and literally anything other than just sitting in place. 

You still not getting what I'm saying. It's fine, nevermind.

 

 

PS: maybe I'm not a competitive player, but your games seems so boring :-/ I played few games with Wanderers, but I never sit in a place with them.

[Tidings]

1 hour ago, Cerve said:

You still not getting what I'm saying. It's fine, nevermind.

PS: maybe I'm not a competitive player, but your games seems so boring :-/ I played few games with Wanderers, but I never sit in a place with them.

In general you seem to be saying that teleporting should be used sparingly with just a few units as needed.
Then you said you can stay within the 6" of the table with a large unit and still be a good bit into the table.

I've just been pointing out how restrictive the rules for our teleporting are. We have one trait that is mandatory in order to make the teleporting useful (Stalker Hidden Paths). We have to string models back to the table edge in case we want to teleport later - this tethers us to table edges in a very awkward way. Finally, we have to be 9" away from enemies, making it exceptionally easy for an enemy to deny us space to teleport. 

My games weren't boring by choice - I was trying to push objectives and I was prepared to teleport if he left an opening. The game was boring because as the rules are written, my opponent is basically forced to sit still and stop me from teleporting. Meanwhile, the couple units he sends at objectives are more powerful than the same points-worth of Wanderers, so I'M forced to defend those objectives with a greater portion of my army now. 

We seem to agree about the teleporting, I think it's a gimmick people shouldn't rely on. I just feel more strongly about it than you do I guess. To me it's not just something you should use sparingly, it's something that creates boring games with smart players, and it doesn't even remotely compare in value to the unit selection you get from Mixed Order. 

Look at it this way, what is more valuable? Having access to the teleport mechanic, or having access to ANY combination of units from ALL Order armies?
That's the point I'm trying to make haha.

 

[Cerve]

2 hours ago, Tidings said:

In general you seem to be saying that teleporting should be used sparingly with just a few units as needed.
Then you said you can stay within the 6" of the table with a large unit and still be a good bit into the table.

I've just been pointing out how restrictive the rules for our teleporting are. We have one trait that is mandatory in order to make the teleporting useful (Stalker Hidden Paths). We have to string models back to the table edge in case we want to teleport later - this tethers us to table edges in a very awkward way. Finally, we have to be 9" away from enemies, making it exceptionally easy for an enemy to deny us space to teleport. 

My games weren't boring by choice - I was trying to push objectives and I was prepared to teleport if he left an opening. The game was boring because as the rules are written, my opponent is basically forced to sit still and stop me from teleporting. Meanwhile, the couple units he sends at objectives are more powerful than the same points-worth of Wanderers, so I'M forced to defend those objectives with a greater portion of my army now. 

We seem to agree about the teleporting, I think it's a gimmick people shouldn't rely on. I just feel more strongly about it than you do I guess. To me it's not just something you should use sparingly, it's something that creates boring games with smart players, and it doesn't even remotely compare in value to the unit selection you get from Mixed Order. 

Look at it this way, what is more valuable? Having access to the teleport mechanic, or having access to ANY combination of units from ALL Order armies?
That's the point I'm trying to make haha.

 

But why are you thinking that you have to teleport for an objective? That's what I don't get. 

You have to stay more than 9" to your enemy. Nice, you have ranged weapons, you don't need to stay in front of him. 
You will never be able to teleport for objectives, is not your guess. You have to POKE your opponent with ranged weapons! You have to push him to charge your teleported units, which they will be (then) far from the heat zone of the game. You need to force your opponent away from objectives doing that. THAT'S the way Teleport will works. 

You still thinking to rush into objectives with it. No, it never happens, of course. You have to use your range units (normally) teleporting them (not ALL of them, of course, adapt it game to game), shooting key enemy units, forcing him to move on them, moving away from the objective. Of course he will never left the objective, but if you will be able to bait some of his pushing units, you're making weak his position on the objective. And then, you will force him by the front. 

Wanderer's are not a flanker army. They are baiters. You should bait your opponent out of position, or he can choose to sit and eat our arrows. 



Yes, Wanderers need some ally. And yes they will never be at the top. But that's the way I see they need to be played. Not teleporting for objectives as you said multiple times :-/ if the game is going as you describe, there's something wrong with the strategy.

[Tidings]

16 hours ago, Cerve said:

But why are you thinking that you have to teleport for an objective? That's what I don't get. 

You still thinking to rush into objectives with it. No, it never happens, of course. You have to use your range units (normally) teleporting them (not ALL of them, of course, adapt it game to game), shooting key enemy units, forcing him to move on them, moving away from the objective. Of course he will never left the objective, but if you will be able to bait some of his pushing units, you're making weak his position on the objective. And then, you will force him by the front. 

Yes, Wanderers need some ally. And yes they will never be at the top. But that's the way I see they need to be played. Not teleporting for objectives as you said multiple times :-/ 

Where have I've said you should teleport for objectives. I have never once said that lol. That's not even an option in most scenarios. What I HAVE been saying is that teleporting is a waste of time and doesn't help you in an objective based game, because of the ways the rules are designed. If you are simplifying that to "teleporting for an objective" then you are massively twisting my words lol.

So in your little theory-crafted example, you've basically described slowly whittling your enemy down and baiting them. Well, @Aezeal summed up why this doesn't work in AoS. We have only 5 turns, and if your opponent is scoring objectives for more of those than you, then you lose. So yeah, it actually is a bit of a race for objectives in most scenarios. 
But you keep talking about baiting, and I keep trying to point out that good players simply don't fall for bait. They zone you out so the only places you can teleport are places that have literally no impact on the game. Really not sure how I can be more clear, but you don't seem to understand what I'm saying. 

Wanderers have an allegiance ability that doesn't synergize with a good portion of our tiny roster (because of movement). It's easy to counter, and is rarely even moderately useful. More often than not, it leads to very predictable games, since the opponent can easily dictate where you can and can't teleport. 

Finally, once again, I have never said teleporting should be used for taking objectives. I have only said it is far less useful in an objective-based game than having the broader unit selection of a Mixed Order army.