Lets Chat Wanderers / Wood Elves compendium

[Tidings]

29 minutes ago, VBS said:

Could work as a Spirit of Durthu or should I saw Spirit of Kurnous (Kurnoth if you want to be AoS-correct). The rules aren't too far off (profile, abilities, sword similar to his spear), except maybe the range of his blast which is too short for a massive bow   Enventually a Treelord/Ancient too....

I suppose, but he's much smaller than a Treelord

[WABBIT]

AoS is not Aelf friendly. Nerfed stats from 8th edition, high points value and a focus on objective based battle plans are not geared toward finesses armies who need time and space to manuverer to wear down their opponents. AoS isn't built for that style of battle game. It's all about the biggest, toughest ,fastest and punchiest units/heroes getting into a scrum in the middle so destruction and chaos always have a huge advantage. It combat focused. I like combat but we don't have any units who can compete in that area if the game.  Aelves have been sidelined deliberately until the new aelves are released and I'm sure they will look amazing but I'm concerned it will just leave the existing factions cold and all those minis we own will be sidelined again. Fingers crossed it won't happen but dispossessed didn't get any love just new very different themed kharadron and fire slayers.

[Tidings]

Here's a list I'm trying out tonight:

- Annointed on Frostheart Phoenix - General - Tenacious

- Battlemage on Celestial Hurricanum (or if you like my warscroll, a Harbinger of the Hunt  :P) - Phoenix Stone

- Waystalker

- Waystalker

- Waystalker

- Waystalker

- 20x Glade Guard

- 5x Waywatchers

- 5x Waywatchers

- 3x Tree Kin

- 3x Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes

- Treelord

 

The idea is to have a very powerful shooting phase with as little restrictions as possible. I want to be able to advance on objectives while shooting at full strength. To match this, I've excluded Eternal Guard in favor of Sylvaneth and a couple big models. I think opponents will have a hard time choosing targets between a Treelord and a Phoenix in their face, and even if they want to get to the Hurricanum, they'll have -1 to hit and some tanky models in between to chew through. 

Waywatchers were taken because they scale incredibly well with the +1 from the Hurricanum, and I chose not to take a Nomad Prince because I figure just having 6(9) more shots from another Waystalker is better than rerolling. I'm open to changing that though, and having 20 points left over for rerolling wounds or something. That could be much better with Arcane Bodkins... hmmm. 

At 12 drops, I probably won't win deployment against most armies, but if they give me first turn I can just run straight at objectives. Not ideal, but not bad I hope. This is less of an alpha strike list and more of a sustained damage list anyways. 

 

[Cambot1231]

11 hours ago, Tidings said:

Hey guys, as requested I put together a full battle report of my game against the Ironjaws. I think it highlights perfectly the weaknesses of the Wanderers when focusing on the allegiance abilities or Waystone Pathfinders too much. Granted this scenario with this opponent was a horrible matchup, and lots of things went wrong, but I still think an advancing gunline would have just walked to one objective and taken it. 

Instead of flooding this forum with all the images, I made an imgur album with descriptions for each turn. Let me know if ya'll like it, took me about 5 hours to put together!

https://imgur.com/a/rtnqW

@Cambot1231 hope this is what you were asking to see.

 

This is awesome! Thanks!

[Yeled]

1 hour ago, Tidings said:

Here's a list I'm trying out tonight:

- Annointed on Frostheart Phoenix - General - Tenacious

- Battlemage on Celestial Hurricanum (or if you like my warscroll, a Harbinger of the Hunt  :P) - Phoenix Stone

- Waystalker

- Waystalker

- Waystalker

- Waystalker

- 20x Glade Guard

- 5x Waywatchers

- 5x Waywatchers

- 3x Tree Kin

- 3x Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes

- Treelord

 

The idea is to have a very powerful shooting phase with as little restrictions as possible. I want to be able to advance on objectives while shooting at full strength. To match this, I've excluded Eternal Guard in favor of Sylvaneth and a couple big models. I think opponents will have a hard time choosing targets between a Treelord and a Phoenix in their face, and even if they want to get to the Hurricanum, they'll have -1 to hit and some tanky models in between to chew through. 

Waywatchers were taken because they scale incredibly well with the +1 from the Hurricanum, and I chose not to take a Nomad Prince because I figure just having 6(9) more shots from another Waystalker is better than rerolling. I'm open to changing that though, and having 20 points left over for rerolling wounds or something. That could be much better with Arcane Bodkins... hmmm. 

At 12 drops, I probably won't win deployment against most armies, but if they give me first turn I can just run straight at objectives. Not ideal, but not bad I hope. This is less of an alpha strike list and more of a sustained damage list anyways. 

 

Basically you're taking everything not included in the core Wanderers army. It's a sad indictment of our units.  

[Tidings]

52 minutes ago, Yeled said:

Basically you're taking everything not included in the core Wanderers army. It's a sad indictment of our units.  

Yeah out of 8 different unit/hero selections, only 2 of them are Wanderers. And you know, it just occurred to me that I may as well proxy my Glade Guard as High Elf archers if I go this route, since they are mathematically better against 4+ armor for less points. Won't for this game though, since they aren't Battleline. 

[Yeled]

I was thinking of trying a mixed Gunline/Teleporting strategy in a friendly game, just to see if it might be better at holding objectives. I could see using EG and SotW buffed by SotT and some tough allied forces in an advancing gunline, with a group of more mobile units like GG, WR, and WWR teleporting around harassing the enemy. Not sure it will work, but I'm not sure it has to be all or nothing with either strategy.

[Yeled]

Out of curiosity, what did the Bonesplitterz and Fyreslayers get when they got their battletome in terms of new units? Because if and when we ever get a Wanderers battletome--assuming it's not part of a greater aelf book--I expect we'll get sort of the same.

[Tidings]

So the list I just posted was insanely more effective than my full Wanderer allegiance lists/Waystone Pathfinders. This was just one game, will try it again next week, and will probably run some version of it in my upcoming tournament. But I won a major victory by a solid lead in victory points, and I tabled my opponent on the 4th turn as well. The Frostheart Phoenix is really tough to kill. It did everything I hoped it would and survived much longer than I expected. By sending it straight into the center of the enemy army as fast as I could, I tied up a lot of units in combat while giving almost the entire army -1 to wound. My shooting with the Waywatchers, Waystalkers and Hurricanum +1 to hit was amazing. In the first turn I shot 40 skeletons off the table with just part of my force, giving my Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes the freedom to charge objectives on their own.

Against some lists I'm worried that my frontline is not able to bubblewrap enough. Wasn't an issue this game, since I completely controlled where the fighting would happen by sending the Frostheart in, but against Destruction or Murderhost I will have a harder time dictating the location of the fighting. As planned though, the -1 to wound army wide courtesy of the Frostheart is something an opponent can't ignore, and it's too tough to kill, so I had free reign to advance at my pace and control the board while steadily shooting targets off the table. The synergy of units allowed for way more damage than I got from Waystone Pathfinders. 

I'm also considering swapping the Treelord out for Drycha. This reduces my tankyness a bit, which I'm already light on, but it grants me two fast units that charge in and tie up the enemy, allowing me to move forward. Drycha dies MUCH faster than the Frostheart but also does more damage, and is another source of mortal wounds. 

 

[Seraphage]

23 hours ago, Tidings said:

Hey guys, as requested I put together a full battle report of my game against the Ironjaws. I think it highlights perfectly the weaknesses of the Wanderers when focusing on the allegiance abilities or Waystone Pathfinders too much. Granted this scenario with this opponent was a horrible matchup, and lots of things went wrong, but I still think an advancing gunline would have just walked to one objective and taken it. 

Instead of flooding this forum with all the images, I made an imgur album with descriptions for each turn. Let me know if ya'll like it, took me about 5 hours to put together!

https://imgur.com/a/rtnqW

@Cambot1231 hope this is what you were asking to see.

 

Fantastic battlereport, looking forward for more !

[Origin]

@Tidings really like the idea of the the frostheart addition. It is pretty tidy for 240 points. I can see how you can see it up first turn for a 2+/4++, with thorns you could have a 3+ MW bounce back. That would make it next to impossible to combat. And it's output is pretty solid as well

I have been bouncing ideas around for nice combat piece to ally in. Been leaning towards a dragon but I think the phoenix might be a better buy.

Im glad I went for a 'neutral' colour scheme with my Wanderers as I can see that I'll end up having a mixed a elven list in the future. Especially when the new minis finally drop.  

[Iain]

What's the deal with Sisters of the Thorn? A lot of points for a 1 spell wizard with a bad save - but fantastic models. They should put the missile range up to 18 inches or reduce the points. Or maybe 2 spells? They're some of my favourite models!

[Yeled]

6 hours ago, Tidings said:

So the list I just posted was insanely more effective than my full Wanderer allegiance lists/Waystone Pathfinders. This was just one game, will try it again next week, and will probably run some version of it in my upcoming tournament. But I won a major victory by a solid lead in victory points, and I tabled my opponent on the 4th turn as well. The Frostheart Phoenix is really tough to kill. It did everything I hoped it would and survived much longer than I expected. By sending it straight into the center of the enemy army as fast as I could, I tied up a lot of units in combat while giving almost the entire army -1 to wound. My shooting with the Waywatchers, Waystalkers and Hurricanum +1 to hit was amazing. In the first turn I shot 40 skeletons off the table with just part of my force, giving my Kurnoth Hunters with Scythes the freedom to charge objectives on their own.

Against some lists I'm worried that my frontline is not able to bubblewrap enough. Wasn't an issue this game, since I completely controlled where the fighting would happen by sending the Frostheart in, but against Destruction or Murderhost I will have a harder time dictating the location of the fighting. As planned though, the -1 to wound army wide courtesy of the Frostheart is something an opponent can't ignore, and it's too tough to kill, so I had free reign to advance at my pace and control the board while steadily shooting targets off the table. The synergy of units allowed for way more damage than I got from Waystone Pathfinders. 

I'm also considering swapping the Treelord out for Drycha. This reduces my tankyness a bit, which I'm already light on, but it grants me two fast units that charge in and tie up the enemy, allowing me to move forward. Drycha dies MUCH faster than the Frostheart but also does more damage, and is another source of mortal wounds. 

 

The Phoenix is definitely a great idea. I'd like to know how well this army does against some other armies like Destruction and Chaos, since Death is really very different than the other armies you played with your full Wanderers list. I'm committed to playing a full Wanderers army (with appropriate allies), so this strategy isn't really an option for me. If it's just the Phoenix that made the difference then it should work pretty well with a Wanderers army as well. If it's a combination of the Phoenix plus the Hurricanum plus tougher troops, that is more difficult to duplicate.

Ultimately, it seems to me that the biggest difference (outside the phoenix) is the Hurricanum gives everything a hit bonus plus outputs mortal wounds. Since Wanderers can't buff their own units outside the Nomad Prince rerolling 1's and they can't output mortal wounds, the Faction is hard pressed to compete with the mixed order army you put together. It may be that the Wanderers are just ultimately ineffective, and if that's the case GW should do something to make them more competitive. A few buffing heroes plus a couple warscroll tweaks might be all it takes. It's definitely informing my thoughts on the wishlist page. But I'm committed to trying to figure out some good strategies.

One thing I still want to try is a Wanderer allegiance with advancing gunline and harassing teleporters on the side. The Phoenix could be an excellent addition to that list. I'm also curious about whether a Wanderer allegiance + Waystone Pathfinders army can defeat an enemy if controlling objectives isn't the scenario. If the goal is simply to kill more points of models, can we win?

[WABBIT]

17 hours ago, Tidings said:

Yeah out of 8 different unit/hero selections, only 2 of them are Wanderers. And you know, it just occurred to me that I may as well proxy my Glade Guard as High Elf archers if I go this route, since they are mathematically better against 4+ armor for less points. Won't for this game though, since they aren't Battleline. 

If you take highborn archers instead of glade guard check out the sea warden with banner I think he gives all high born rerolls to hit and/or wound. It is sad every time I go the order route I swap out wanderer units with units I need for specific tasks like taking objectives or snipping heroes etc and I end up with almost no wanderer units.

[Tidings]

5 hours ago, Origin said:

@Tidings really like the idea of the the frostheart addition. It is pretty tidy for 240 points. I can see how you can see it up first turn for a 2+/4++, with thorns you could have a 3+ MW bounce back. That would make it next to impossible to combat. And it's output is pretty solid as well

I have been bouncing ideas around for nice combat piece to ally in. Been leaning towards a dragon but I think the phoenix might be a better buy.

Im glad I went for a 'neutral' colour scheme with my Wanderers as I can see that I'll end up having a mixed a elven list in the future. Especially when the new minis finally drop.  

Yeah it worked great! How would you get it to a 2+? The best I can think of is 3+. If you want something tanky that can move fast for objectives, tie enemies down in combat, and just be a major distraction, the Frostheart is great. In terms of damage output though, it only has -1 rend, making it pretty 'meh' against the units you really want to tie down with it. If your list needs more punch, I'd probably take the dragon, Drycha, Treelord, etc. 

My frostheart is my Glade Lord on a Great Eagle lol. I spent so much money and time on the figure that I'm not shelving it for good because GW made it useless. 

4 hours ago, Iain said:

What's the deal with Sisters of the Thorn? A lot of points for a 1 spell wizard with a bad save - but fantastic models. They should put the missile range up to 18 inches or reduce the points. Or maybe 2 spells? They're some of my favourite models!

They have a spell that is fantastic on durable units. Problem is we don't really have any durable units anymore. I almost never take them, and the last two games I did, their spell only went off a total of 2 times. Not even remotely worth the points. Get Stormcast Paladors instead lol. 

3 hours ago, Yeled said:

I'm also curious about whether a Wanderer allegiance + Waystone Pathfinders army can defeat an enemy if controlling objectives isn't the scenario. If the goal is simply to kill more points of models, can we win?

In a pure kill scenario, Waystone Pathfinders will basically auto-win against almost any army I think. My friends at the hobby store agree as well. They do a lot of damage and escape so easily. Regarding your other comment about the Hurricanum, it really is the most important part of the list. The combination with +1 with the waywatcher's bonus attacks is what makes it scale higher in value than the points you pay for it.  

2 hours ago, WABBIT said:

If you take highborn archers instead of glade guard check out the sea warden with banner I think he gives all high born rerolls to hit and/or wound. It is sad every time I go the order route I swap out wanderer units with units I need for specific tasks like taking objectives or snipping heroes etc and I end up with almost no wanderer units.

Yeah, that really bothers me. I'm totally fine going mixed Order if I'm mostly Wanderers and just want more than 400 points in allys. But at this point I'm creating armies that are mostly NOT Wanderer, and I'm just taking the Wanderer aesthetic.

I'm even trying to come up with lore around this to make myself happier about it. For example, my Wanderers are Wood Elves of the Ashenhall, the part of Athel Loren that is always autumn. Part of the lore for this area is that the elves there are more fixated on the full cycle of life, including death, and they have lots of statues of the departed throughout the forest. If I add Stormcast, which I plan to (sigh), I'll paint them as ancient statues that have come to life.

[Origin]

@Tidings regarding the frost heart getting to a 2+/4++

She starts with a 5+ base save and adds +1 to her save rolls for each spell cast within 12". So cast two spells first turn for +2, one of those spells being mystic shield for an additional +1... 

Sweet, sweet 2+ save with an epic 3+ MW bounce back from Thorns,  followed by the witness to destinys 4++, so tanky.

My group would have fits

Assumption here is that the +1 stacks... Does it? 

[Origin]

@Iain I really like sisters of the thorn. Their spell is wicked, they are fast, good missile attack and decent amount of dice in combat. For me they buff until there is nothing left to buff and then race of to cap objectives.

220 is a maybe a bit high a price for them. 100 for the Wizard and 120 for the light cav. 180-200 would be better but we are talking about wanderers here. 

And on topic, I have no doubt that a mixed order army will perform better than the green elves but I'm committed to making a go of them. The skill in it is exciting and demanding. I'll be dragging these cats to CANCON  next year for a certainty so, practice practice practice... 

[Tidings]

2 hours ago, Origin said:

@Tidings regarding the frost heart getting to a 2+/4++

She starts with a 5+ base save and adds +1 to her save rolls for each spell cast within 12". So cast two spells first turn for +2, one of those spells being mystic shield for an additional +1... 

Assumption here is that the +1 stacks... Does it? 

I didn't even think about it, reread it and it doesn't seem clear one way or the other. I'd guess it only goes once, since effects don't stack when they are from the same source normally. 

[Origin]

1 hour ago, Tidings said:

I didn't even think about it, reread it and it doesn't seem clear one way or the other. I'd guess it only goes once, since effects don't stack when they are from the same source normally. 

Really? What are the other examples of effects not stacking? 

I know a lot of us were expecting that to be included as a new rule of one in GH17 and were surprised that it was not there. 

[Tidings]

1 hour ago, Origin said:

Really? What are the other examples of effects not stacking? 

I know a lot of us were expecting that to be included as a new rule of one in GH17 and were surprised that it was not there. 

I'm  a bit tired/braindead at the moment, but I can't think of any abilities where the effects DO stack on itself... other than the Frostheart I guess haha. The wording for everything else is pretty clear and binary. The wording on the Frostheart seems vague because they don't use any language like "each time a spell is cast" or whatever.

I know things CAN stack, I think I worded what I was trying to say poorly. Hopefully I'm making more sense now!

[Aezeal]

4 hours ago, Tidings said:

I didn't even think about it, reread it and it doesn't seem clear one way or the other. I'd guess it only goes once, since effects don't stack when they are from the same source normally. 

A few abilities have had specific faqs that they don't stack (treelord stomp, bloodsecrator... Not sure about khemist from the top of my head) the rest stacks.

[Yeled]

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

A few abilities have had specific faqs that they don't stack (treelord stomp, bloodsecrator... Not sure about khemist from the top of my head) the rest stacks.

This. In fact the FAQ specifically says that multiple instances of the same ability or spell do stack. I think they got rid of scenarios where abilities triggered multiple times based on meeting the same criteria, i.e., being in range of a certain unit type conferring a +1 bonus doesn't happen twice if you are in range of two of that unit type. The condition is met only once no matter how many times you meet the criteria.

In the case of the frostheart, however, it seems to say whenever a spell is cast, do x. So each time a spell is cast, the effect takes place.

[Origin]

Hello phoenix... Where you been all my life. Sexy beast... 

[WABBIT]

Right here baby, right here 

[Origin]

Damn girl... You one plump little birdy. What comes first, you or that egg?