Stacking the Same Ability

[Nico]

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Its published and its not changing, and the fact that it is here means that it has a likely chance of appearing in the GH2. Like the points demo they are probably trying to demo this rule and seeing if it works.

They made various amendments to the pack last year and hopefully will do again. As i said, this is wording which was in last year's SCGT Pack and made sense back then, but is no longer needed. Similarly now that Kairos is no longer changing initiative rolls (Warscroll amendment), there's no need to crush Fyreslayer's best battalion (which wasn't reduced in price) or the Coven Throne (both of which give you an expensive chance of changing the initiative roll and are heavily overcosted without those abilities).

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A note about Bloodbound - they will also be totally fine with only one boodsecrator. You can take two to make sure everyone gets +1 attack and nobody gets to enjoy their spells. You can still get attacks from a lot of other things, as well as +1 to hit from a bunch of things, lots of good battalions, etc. - this rule does not break Bloodbound at all.  

This is handwaving. It's a colossal nerf any way you look at it. I cannot see any logical reason to play Bloodbound on the basis of this pack. They are a solid tier 2 army under the GH (with several hideous hard counters), but with a huge nerf to their key mechanic, they are not worth playing.

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A house rule or a unwritten rule is not a rule either. The simplest rule would be to say, to use a scroll in Matched Play it must be the one that is still available in the app.
 

 I think you've rushed through a lot of points (which is fair enough, we're all busy). Are you aware of what a "house rule" means in relation to a tournament? A house rule would override any rule in the core rules by design/definition. I think you're missing the point here.

 

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How is Sylvaneth nerfed in any way? What are these 6 nerfs you speak of? The only thing I can think of is that Wyldwood can only be up to 3 and has to be 'clumped' together. This is not a nerf so much as a bit of sanity. Limiting persisting effects will not change this - having to choose +1 save and -1 to hit your general instead of two of either does not exactly break the army..(Oaken Armor+Briarsheath).

My point is that banning double artefacts affects Sylvaneth more than any other army, since they have more than any other army and theirs are very strong (Stormcast may catch up on both counts I should add).

Some other nerfs off the top of my head:

• Free Spirits no longer able to use Navigate Realmroots in the hero phase. This was justified for balance reasons (it was undercosted) but should have been done by amending the scroll). Instead of buffing Kunning Rukk Arrer Boyz by disabling various counters to their shooting in the hero phase (presumably an inadvertent side-effect), which then magically switch back on in the real shooting phase.
• The same change also nerfed Dreadwood Wargrove (an extremely expensive Battalion designed for alpha striking) a lot, so that you can only do an effective alpha strike by using Alarielle within it.
• Navigate Realmroots is probably a move and hence potentially a retreat (so much for the hit and run fluff of the army).
• Wyldwoods in clumps (this isn't much of a nerf, but didn't have to be done this way). In some lists, having a single 3-wood in a line would be a helpful option. 
• Some events decided to limit Wyldwoods to a single Citadel Wood for no reason at all.
• Maybe there's a buff to Alarielle's Soul Amphorae (use in both hero phases) - this would explain why there are summoning options for the ability and would make here worth her cost (outside of Dreadwood).

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Regardless they are still the most successful tournament army to date.

Which country are you talking about? This is news to me and most Sylvaneth players here. I consider them to be the least successful of the tier one tournament armies out there in terms of winning events - I suspect they do well in terms of placing in the top 10/top 5. Rufio Symes won Alliance from memory with 3 Hurricanums and Kurnoth Hunters, but that isn't even a Sylvaneth Allegiance Army. Stormcast are the most successful (unsurprisingly). Even Khorne Bloodbound are doing better than Sylvaneth due to a certain R.V. who mastered using them.

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In order for death to need two artefacts, there would have to be at least one reasonable battalion in the entire alliance. The only time that you would do this is in a Settra+Chariot list, which you can not even buy since the models are discontinued, so its kind of a moot point. Regardless TK is getting a massive point increase to kick death while they are down. The main issue with death is that the only time they stop neglecting the alliance is when they decide to give it a new nerf. There are a lot of issues with death as a result of being out of date. Eventually they will get a new tome to be brought up to speed. Until then the Mourngul band-aid keeps them competitive, there were many death players that did well at LVO. I was in 13th place with my Neferata+FEC list going into game 6 when I hit a steamroll Bloodbound list + a ton of horrible luck.

We're in agreement on this one.

They are not competitive and were already the worst Grand Alliance even before the onslaught of nerfs from December to date. The declining popularity of gunline bunkers made Necropolis Knights look a lot better than they really were. 

Please tell me you didn't expect to do well with Neferata as your general? Order get buffs that give a protective aura to any nearby units which mitigates shooting (in fact two if you count Protectors as well) - because they obviously need a viable counter to pew pew. How many times did Neffy get shot to pieces turn one? I'd try going Arkhan plus FEC - at least then when he dies early on it's not game over.

[WoollyMammoth]

@Arkihamthey re-added compendium because they gave all the stuff a huge point increase with the GH2 stuff

[WoollyMammoth]

@Nico
I'm not familiar with the Fyreslayers battalion. Not many people play them right now. There were 0 at LVO. A Coven Throne does not change or modify the dice roll, it simply states that you win in a draw. Unless they had a specific ruling on this, it does not apply. Regardless, I've never seen anyone with a coven throne, let alone as their general.

Any talk of "tiers" is purely opinion and there is a lot of debate on this. I think that is a testament to the fact that when you account for the loose rules and the changing objectives, you can't really claim anything is the most powerful. In many cases you get tabled and still win a major victory. 

If you are playing exclusively bloodbound, maybe that's what you mean. But when you Have things like Sayl+bloodstoker+bloodsecrator+ aspiring Deathbringers command ability on a large unit of skullreapers and you have a battalion so your army is immune to battleshock and you get to pick who goes first, a second bloodsecrator is not exactly going to make or break this list. If this is not "top tier" then I don't know what is. 

house rule. : a rule (as in a game) that applies only among a certain group or in a certain place.

AKA, its a rule that applies in your house but not my house. Unless you are hosting a tournament at your house, the house rule doesn't apply and therefore is not a real rule. I might for example say that monsters still get cover in my house but if I claimed that at a tournament, my opponent is not likely to agree.

I find it funny that you accuse me of not reading, then you ask me what country I'm talking about when I clearly mentioned LVO, as in Las Vegas Open - in Las Vegas Nevada. Therefore I'm clearly talking about the US (more specifically the West Coast which seems to have the most AoS activity). If you read my posts you can clearly tell I read and address every point. 

"Least successful tier 1 army" is an oxymoron. So they finished in the top 5 but its winner take all? If they can finish in the top 5 at every event, that means they have the potential to take the top prize in any event depending on the skill and luck of the players. At LVO the "championship" game (5 major victory vs 5 major victory) was between stormcast and sylvaneth. The stormcast player took 1st but a different Sylvaneth player took second. 

Neferata got shot off once and in that game I won a major victory. As I said I was in 13th place (13/74) going into game 6. Neferata is one of the biggest killing machines in death with one of the best spells and the best command ability. Another player with Neferata as their general finished 17th. 

Putting armies in tiers and saying which is better than what based on concepts and theorycrafting and netlists is not a good mindset to have. AoS was designed in contrast to playing like this. I did't spend 40 hours painting Neferata because I knew she was going to steamroll the competition, I did so because she is the friggin queen of vampires and her model is awesome, and I was rewarded with the honor of being the only Death army at LVO that was nominated for best painted. I didn't bring Arkhan because I don't want to bring Arkhan and regardless, If I had I would have had no decent command abilities and the 100 points I would have saved would not have helped me to win the last game to put me in the top 10. Arkhan is not much more than a spell jockey which is going to be a hard sell with bloodsecrators on every other table.  Neferata did a lot of good work for me such as killing a zombie dragon, killing a horde of bloodletters (while negating their mortal wound ability), killing Orghotts Demonspew to take a point for a major victory, holding a point for 3 turns to get a major victory.

That being said she is susceptible to shooting which is why I screened her by casting as many spells on a Terrorgheist as I could and making him the biggest threat. You can't dismiss things based on theories, I've had Neferata kill half armies all by herself without a scratch on her. Her main downside is that she is named and therefore misses out on the command trait which is essential for death, which is why most people take a Mourngul for -1 to hit instead. At least a quarter of players at LVO played death however and the two that made the top 10 did not have either. AoS is a heavily tactical game where the decisions you make are often more important than the list you bring.

Perhaps the most important point of limiting stacking is that its simply not as cool to see people take 3+ of the same thing just because its rules are good, its more fun to see more varied and interesting models on the table. 

 

 

[Nico]

The Coven Throne has a once per game reroll a dice ability (alongside the command ability).

The Lords of the Lodge offers a once per game +3 to an initiative roll.

Good job on the painting! Neferata does look good. Mine hasn't been used for a long time.

I didn't say take Arkhan as your general.

I agree that tiers aren't precise and are subject to the pack/rules in question. Nagash's value illustrates this neatly - absent the rules of one he's phenomenal - probably worth 1500 points (4-8 mystic shields near guaranteed, ones to save not failing). For the avoidance of doubt, I'm very impressed by the rules of one. This is purely an example. My concern is that keeping old rules that made sense pre-GH is going to make some armies/Warscrolls far weaker/stronger than their points reflect for no apparent benefit.

My comments are based on the GH/SCGT pack as appropriate. Some armies are far better under Mo-Comp for example.

Loose tiers can however serve a useful purpose, for example trying (in vain?) to stop the majority from nerfing Death out of existence or nerfing Sylvaneth (and now DoT) based on very limited experience (e.g. when they are nerfed at events before they've even been out 2 months).

Stacking buffs/synergies has been the counter to elite armies (Stormcast and to a lesser extent what are now called Gutbusters and BCR). These are some of the last armies that need an indirect buff.

I did realise that you were talking about the US tournament scene by the time I had finished posting.

 

 

[BURF1]

I got to tell you, it's very hard to take woollymammoth too seriously at this point, he's created a topic protesting pretty much every powerful unit and combo in the game. Outside of making every unit the same price and stats as skeletons and removing every special ability in the game, there's really nothing that can be done. Even after that there would be posts about how broken blue dice are compared to white ones.

[rokapoke]

@BURF1, you may not see merit to @WoollyMammoth's arguments, but he's generated a lot of discussion, whereas posts attacking his views as unworthy of consideration do not contribute anything to the community. Remember what makes TGA such a great forum before posting hatred, please. 

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, rokapoke said:

@BURF1, you may not see merit to @WoollyMammoth's arguments, but he's generated a lot of discussion, whereas posts attacking his views as unworthy of consideration do not contribute anything to the community. Remember what makes TGA such a great forum before posting hatred, please. 

to be fair. repeated posts about similar sort of things does come across as. " i got wrecked by combo x or y , therefore it should be nerfed " 

not a dig. just an observation 

[WoollyMammoth]

@Nico
I forgot the coven throne had a re-roll, I didn't associate with using it for the turn. I have a half made coven throne i need to finish. 
I magnetized so I can swap to Arkhan. I've been wanting to try Curse of Years for a long time now. I'm not sure who to make the general - there's not a lot of cool command abilities with death right now, one of the things that really needs updating. The most important one in my opinion is that Death needs its own spell lore(s). With a 6 spell lore, Nagash can be really powerful in matched play.

I'm for cohesion of rules and simplicity. That's part of the argument that things from the same source should not stack - most of them already specifically don't stack in their rules, so the few examples where they do seems feels like an oversight. With the new SCE book, you can take two Celestants and now give the whole army +2 to hit. This just feels like another oversight to me. You can't really argue that SCE needed some big synergy boosts, they were already one of the most powerful armies, now they have a ton of extra stuff. 

I don't know how armies operate under the SCGT house rules. I think its interesting that Khorne is not still strong, because they can hit harder than anything else I've seen, even with only one Bloodsecrator.

@rokapoke
Thank you

I just promote discussion. I don't think anything should get nerfed. I love AoS as it is, but nothing is perfect. But white dice clearly roll better than blue, everyone knows that. 

@Arkiham
If I get wrecked I ask the community for feedback on how they feel, I don't cry for the nerf hammer. Most of my core arguments mirror the changes made by SCGT. There are people out there wanting to ban compendium, far more harsh than anything I have said. There are a few things that I feel should get a points increase such as a Mourngul or Kurnoth Hunters - both are models which I have by the way. I promote discussion of changes in the spirit of fairness and balance. We live in a time where we can discuss ideas and post them on Facebook and they may even make it into a FAQ or a new GH.

[Nico]

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I forgot the coven throne had a re-roll, I didn't associate with using it for the turn. I have a half made coven throne i need to finish. 
I magnetized so I can swap to Arkhan. I've been wanting to try Curse of Years for a long time now. I'm not sure who to make the general - there's not a lot of cool command abilities with death right now, one of the things that really needs updating. The most important one in my opinion is that Death needs its own spell lore(s). With a 6 spell lore, Nagash can be really powerful in matched play.

Most people just forget that the Coven Throne exists at all. I got some odd looks at an event when I pulled it out from the sideboard. 

At present, Death's only competitive general choices are the VLoZD or a unit champion/banner bearer (forgoing the command ability entirely in order to keep the ward save going) or the Mourngul. All the named characters cannot work as general as you lose more by losing the 5+ ward than you gain from the command ability (especially because of the window between the start of the game and your first hero phase, during which time your general can die without mystic shield and without any other defences (this is what's so infuriating about Neferata - a defensive choice and yet she has a glaringly obvious weakness). Even Nagash's command ability isn't worth as much as that 5+ ward (maybe at 2,500 points it would be).

The thing that killed the named characters for me was the Tomb Herald nerf. While I am pleased that they stopped a theoretical exploit (taking multiple Tomb Heralds and bouncing the wounds until infinity until the ward saves stopped them - did anyone actually do this at an Event?), they did so by killing off an option to give Mannderp and Neferata (and even Nagash) an extra 5 wounds to survive that first shooting phase? 

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I'm for cohesion of rules and simplicity. That's part of the argument that things from the same source should not stack - most of them already specifically don't stack in their rules, so the few examples where they do seems feels like an oversight. With the new SCE book, you can take two Celestants and now give the whole army +2 to hit. This just feels like another oversight to me. You can't really argue that SCE needed some big synergy boosts, they were already one of the most powerful armies, now they have a ton of extra stuff. 

I don't know how armies operate under the SCGT house rules. I think its interesting that Khorne is not still strong, because they can hit harder than anything else I've seen, even with only one Bloodsecrator.

I'm obviously not a fan of simplicity (although needless complexity isn't a good thing) - the fact that the Community are still innovating on the Sylvaneth book 8 months down the line is a great thing.

I would say that they are not an oversight - it's unlikely to be an accident that most of the ones that would be horrific don't stack either on the scroll or under the GH. 

+2 to hit in the Combat Phase in a small aura bubble from two 5 wound heroes who waddle at 5" move (that's far from the most dangerous thing in the new book).

It's ironic that you're pointing to Stormcast as the stackers of buffs, when this has been Chaos's modus operandi since day one of AoS (Stormcast having better profiles, Chaos relying on synergies to overcome the superiority) - Little Archaon and Big Archaon are the ultimate embodiment of this and even then it's not easy to get a good buff stack without resorting to the true kings of AoS - Skaven:

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I think its interesting that Khorne is not still strong, because they can hit harder than anything else I've seen, even with only one Bloodsecrator.

They do hit fairly hard, but 10 Temple Guard can hold up their entire army for a day with a 35/36 save. Ditto a Treelord Ancient with Oaken Armour and Gnarled Warrior. They can bring Daemons to help.

 

 

[RuneBrush]

11 minutes ago, Nico said:

At present, Death's only competitive general choices are the VLoZD or a unit champion/banner bearer (forgoing the command ability entirely in order to keep the ward save going) or the Mourngul. All the named characters cannot work as general as you lose more by losing the 5+ ward than you gain from the command ability

Slight diversion (I'm sure I've missed something obvious).  I thought ward save the upgrade from 6+ to 5+ was a command trait rather than command ability?

[Nico]

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Slight diversion (I'm sure I've missed something obvious).  I thought ward save the upgrade from 6+ to 5+ was a command trait rather than command ability?

You're right. 

My point is that taking a general which is a special character (and plainly costed on the basis of having a strong command ability) is a road to failure as you are then unable to take the 5+ Ward save through Ruler of the Night (one cannot overstate how integral this is to Death). Hence, what you gain from (say) Mannfred's powerful command ability is more than wiped out from losing the 5+ ward save bubble.

This is why Death players gravitated to the VLoZD (who is basically a great tank that doesn't hit very hard at all, but can at least slap a command ability onto your best unit).

[RuneBrush]

4 minutes ago, Nico said:

You're right. 

My point is that taking a general which is a special character (and plainly costed on the basis of having a strong command ability) is a road to failure as you are then unable to take the 5+ Ward save through Ruler of the Night (one cannot overstate how integral this is to Death). Hence, what you gain from (say) Mannfred's powerful command ability is more than wiped out from losing the 5+ ward save bubble.

This is why Death players gravitated to the VLoZD (who is basically a great tank that doesn't hit very hard at all, but can at least slap a command ability onto your best unit).

Sorry I think I'm just having a special moment and getting confused.  Not sure how having a named character (or one with a command ability) prevents you from using Ruler of the Night, as your Command Trait is in addition to any Command Abilities,.  So Ruler of the Night is a passive bonus all the time your general is on the battlefield.  Unless you're meaning something different?

[Nico]

A named character (e.g. Nagash, Neferata or Mannfred) cannot have a command trait (or an artefact).

Hence the trade off - if Nagash is general for his command ability, then no command trait on the general=Nagash (so no 5+ ward). I'm not a morning person normally either.

[Squirrelmaster]

Pg 157 of the General's Handbook - no artefacts or command traits for named characters.

In larger games (say, 3000pts or more), I actually would consider Nagash's command ability more useful that the "Ruler of the Night" command trait. Re-rolling 1s to save is often going to make your most armoured stuff more survivable than upgrading their 6+ DM to a 5+, and immunity to battleshock is going to help your zombie/skleteton hordes more when it really counts.

Trouble is, if you try to fit him in 2000pts you just can't fit enough other stuff in.

[meet.the.doctor]

If couple abbilities can stack each other, do each netter also stack -1 to hit? The rule states: "Your opponent must substract 1 from any hit rolls made in the combat phase for any of their models that are within 2" of A GROT with a Barbed Net".
Eg. I have 6 netters next to each other attacking let's say Archaon. What is his to hit value?


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[RuneBrush]

3 hours ago, Nico said:

A named character (e.g. Nagash, Neferata or Mannfred) cannot have a command trait (or an artefact).

Hence the trade off - if Nagash is general for his command ability, then no command trait on the general=Nagash (so no 5+ ward). I'm not a morning person normally either.

Knew that about the artefact but clearly hadn't clocked the trait!  Can see why it's a big challenge for death sadly.  (I'm not much of an afternoon person either )

1 hour ago, Squirrelmaster said:

Pg 157 of the General's Handbook - no artefacts or command traits for named characters.

Cheers

[Bimli]

31 minutes ago, meet.the.doctor said:

If couple abbilities can stack each other, do each netter also stack -1 to hit? The rule states: "Your opponent must substract 1 from any hit rolls made in the combat phase for any of their models that are within 2" of A GROT with a Barbed Net".
Eg. I have 6 netters next to each other attacking let's say Archaon. What is his to hit value?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmm that is a good question, I could be wrong but that dosen't sound like it stacks as I think if it did stack it would say something along the lines of subtract 1 attack per each netter within 2"

Now this is just a guess but I think for stacking purposes GW should actually indicate "this ability can stack" or "this ability cannot stack" that would make gaming life so much easier.

If there is 1 change Id like in the GHB2 it is a clear indication of what can/cannot stack add an extra rule beside the rule of 1 the rule of stack "the only time an ability can stack is if it has the can stack rule in it"

[RuneBrush]

50 minutes ago, meet.the.doctor said:

If couple abbilities can stack each other, do each netter also stack -1 to hit? The rule states: "Your opponent must substract 1 from any hit rolls made in the combat phase for any of their models that are within 2" of A GROT with a Barbed Net".
Eg. I have 6 netters next to each other attacking let's say Archaon. What is his to hit value?

The way I'd read this is that you'd work out if each model in combat is within 2" of a barbed net grot.  So if Archaon is surrounded by 6 the answer is "yes", he is within 2" of a netter, so is at -1 to hit.  What that also would mean is that the -1 to hit isn't applied to the whole unit - just the models within 2".

[Nico]

 

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In larger games (say, 3000pts or more), I actually would consider Nagash's command ability more useful that the "Ruler of the Night" command trait. Re-rolling 1s to save is often going to make your most armoured stuff more survivable than upgrading their 6+ DM to a 5+, and immunity to battleshock is going to help your zombie/skleteton hordes more when it really counts.

Trouble is, if you try to fit him in 2000pts you just can't fit enough other stuff in.

 

Yes exactly. He would be interesting at 2,500 points. He's still useful in a dual list army at 2,000 points, since he can hard counter some armies so well (Sylvaneth, DoT)

Nagash is perhaps the third most scalable Warscroll in the game (after Archaon and probably Gordrakk - Gordrakk's command ability used on a Brawl or on a gargantuan Beastclaw Raiders army within a Single Drop army....)

[Nico]

Netters don't stack.

They are a real time-sink as you have to measure each model individually. I genuinely preferred playing against them back when you could take half a unit as Netters as it's so much faster.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I'm not sure of the the logic of, if it's in the SCGT pack it'll be in the GHB2.  There were quite a lot of things that were in the first SCGT AoS pack that weren't in the first GHB. Having the new Fyreslayer and Tomb Kings points released to them was a response to the SCGTs proposed ban on the compendium units for example. They're helping with play testing not writing the book. 

I rather like stacking of abilities I feel all with the initiative roll they a part of the character of AoS. 

[meet.the.doctor]

Netters don't stack. They are a real time-sink as you have to measure each model individually. I genuinely preferred playing against them back when you could take half a unit as Netters as it's so much faster.

 

But why they don't? In given example archaon is in 2" of each of them from every "A GROT" he gets -1. In general he gets -6. Why wouldn't he?

 

(To clarify one thing - I never played like that, but noticed that poeple seem to use "if it is not forbidden - it is legal", so decided why not in this case. If we get kicked in our green butts why not be kunnin';) )

 

[rokapoke]

21 minutes ago, meet.the.doctor said:

But why they don't?

The wording of the Grots' ability makes it a yes/no condition -- is Archaeon within 2" of a Grot with a net? Yes. It doesn't matter if he's within 2" of 1 net or 20 nets, the answer is still yes, so he gets -1 to hit.

[WoollyMammoth]

@Nico
I agree, the 5+ is amazing, by far the most potent allegiance ability in the GH.

I think that preventing special chars from having an allegiance trait is too much; allegiance traits are quickly becoming the most essential part of the new rules. An allegiance trait is part of being a leader. The no artifact thing makes sense but no allegiance is too much and I hope they remove this from GH2. 

The major issue here is, most named are simply not named anymore. The Bloodsecrator is a perfect example of a special named char, but hes got no name. A Lord Celestant on Star-Drake is another named char without a name. Kroq-Gar on Carnosaur? Nope that's just an "Old-Blood". They are removing names and making generic stuff, but adding a peanilization for having a name. Again, death gets kicked in the balls for not being updated to par yet. Neferata should be a "vampire queen" or something like that, and she would become much better.

Note that a lot of people dont like the 5++ that death has, and it is part of the GH, therefore its not set in stone and may see a nerf with GH2. Personally I kind of agree, but only if death received a huge update. If they made say, a Deathlords book with a command trait that each lord can summon a unit to the table each turn, which made all the named chars generic with awesome command abilities, and added 6 pages of artifacts and 3 new spell lores, I would probably not care what they do with generic death allegiance any more. 
 

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I would say that they are not an oversight - it's unlikely to be an accident that most of the ones that would be horrific don't stack either on the scroll or under the GH. 

The glaring one that most people don't like is the bloodsecrator. His rules were written early (first release) and you can't even buy him outside of the box. Hes clearly designed not to stack, and two of his 3 effects cant stack. They just didn't think anyone would get two of them. I'm not saying that it is essential that they nerf him, I'm just saying its fairly obvious that a quarter of everyone showing up for the tournaments having 2-3 bloodsecrators was an oversight.  They could have also included him in the expansion, the slaughterstorm, the easy to build kits or the start collecting box if he was designed to be essential to the army. Or maybe they just like selling starter boxes....
 

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It's ironic that you're pointing to Stormcast as the stackers of buffs, when this has been Chaos's modus operandi since day one of AoS (Stormcast having better profiles, Chaos relying on synergies to overcome the superiority)

Not anymore, as of last week Stormcast have their own allegiance, formations, brotherhoods, 3 kinds of artifacts, lantern effects, mount effects and prayers. They have a lot of combos and synergies now.

The speed of any model doesn't really matter when you can use the (now cheaper) banner to teleport someone anywhere you want or just use the allegiance ability. +2 to hit in an army with already potent statlines is going to be worth making work. 

Nice skaven report. I have all that stuff but I cant bring myself to rebase (and finish painting) all my clanrats and stomvermin. I know the first game after spending months doing that, a Drycha, Gaunt Summoner or some Decimators are just going to melt hours of painting and base work in mere seconds. I vowed that ghouls would be my last horde army.

@Ollie Grimwood
If it is in SCGT, then it is not guaranteed to be in the GH. They may try stuff they don't like. But after the tournament, if they say, we really liked how they did this or that worked, then it will likely make it in as these guys are part of the process now.

The SCGT brought two very distinct aspects to AoS
- point based army building
- the complete restriction of summoning

These were the two horrific stains on the AoS that were preventing a lot of people from being interested in AoS, and dividing the community of those that were. With the release of the GH, these things were fixed and the community is booming faster than it has been for a decade, perhaps ever.

The other major thing that the GH did is, for the first time successfully promote scenario play instead of just one giant deathmatch. This keeps a lot of strain off the balance and creates a wider range of value for different warscrolls.

At this point AoS is mostly fine, but there are a few things that SCGT is addressing:
A. round base-to-base measurement
This seems to be universally adopted and will likely be added to the GH2 in some way

B. you cant have worse than 6 to hit/wound
This dosent seem that improtant .. if you have 6 to hit or wound your mostly screwed regardless. It woudent hurt to have it added on to the "1 always fails" rule of 1 though, if only to keep it simple.

C. things with the same name don't stack
This is the current discussion

D. initiative cannot be manipulated
Initiative seems too important to mess with usually. GW clearly agrees - look at the change to Kiros. I think this will appear.

E. Invulnerable targets cannot claim objectives
This seems important and should be noted in GH2. Specifically the issue with the balewind vortex needs to be addressed.

F. leader has to be your general
I'm not familiar with the reason for this ruling. As far as I know this is not a big deal but I'm sure there is something weird that sparked this rule. 


@meet.the.doctor
The wording "a" or "any" is a failsafe to prevent stacking.

You are within 2" of 1 grot = you are within 2" of a grot
You are within 2" of 2 gots = you are within 2" of a grot
You are within 2" of 3 grots = you are within 2" of a grot

if you are within 2" of 3 grots, you are not within 2" of 3 "a grots"; you are at least 2" from a grot.

usually they use the word "any" which is more clear.
If a model is within 2" of ANY grots



 

[Davariel]

Imposing a blanket change on all abilities stacking seems like something that could have a drastic effect - and that wouldn't affect all armies evenly. Especially with the average faction size being fairly small these days most armies don't exactly have a widespread choice of buffs - it's fine if you've got lots of different abilities to buff with, or your troops are strong enough not to need much support (e.g. Kurnoth Hunters, Stormcast), but others like Bloodbound will suffer as Nico has noted. It would affect models that don't need nerfing like the regular treelord (a very marginalised model whose potential to add another -1 to hit debuff is one of the few reasons to take him)... it just seems like an overreaction to me.

Especially in light of the fact that there are already examples of abilities that don't stack (the Frostheart Phoenix's Blizzard Aura is a good one), if there's a balance issue with some rules stacking then surely those specific rules should be changed rather than making a fundamental shift which could upset far more than intended?

Personally I think having some rules that stack and some that don't adds variety and strategy to the game, but that's just me