Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[TheOtherJosh]

...This isn't about that, as before, Daemons do not come from warps or eye of terrors...

 You are completely right, Daemons don't come from the Warp or the Eye of Terror. They all come from the Realm of Chaos, in which each Chaos God has their own domain.

 

And like other Daemons:

 

 

"...they cannot be slain as can mortal creatures. It is possible to destroy a daemon’s physical shell, but doing so only sends its spirit back to the Realm of Chaos where it begins the painful process of reforming. The length of time this takes depends upon the daemon’s size, strength, and, most importantly, whether or not the being still carries their god’s favour." (Excerpt From: Games Workshop LTD. “Chaos Battletome: Disciples of Tzeentch.”)

 Unlike Daemons of Khorne which are created and given existence by Khorne's will, Khorgoraths are merely living mortal siege engines/skull collectors which are mutated from living mortal critters. IMO They're basically a khornate "blessed" Spawn of chaos. As opposed to an actual Spawn of Chaos, which typically get there because they screwed up. (Or were favored too much by tzeentch.)

 

Could Khorne "breathe life" back into a Khorgorath ... sure. But, just because something comes out of the Brass Citadel, doesn't make it a Daemon.

 

 (Thanks for the interesting discussion btw!)

 

[RuneBrush]

@Killax & @TheOtherJosh I think the actual creation of daemons, Korgi's and specials can largely be answered under "because they are"   AoS is deliberately full of ambiguity and obfuscation, so that we're all free to create our own background and fun.  Khorne's rage can manifest however He wishes, it's almost as if it were magic

[Killax]

10 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

 You are completely right, Daemons don't come from the Warp or the Eye of Terror. They all come from the Realm of Chaos, in which each Chaos God has their own domain.

And like other Daemons:

 Unlike Daemons of Khorne which are created and given existence by Khorne's will, Khorgoraths are merely living mortal siege engines/skull collectors which are mutated from living mortal critters. IMO They're basically a khornate "blessed" Spawn of chaos. As opposed to an actual Spawn of Chaos, which typically get there because they screwed up. (Or were favored too much by tzeentch.)

Could Khorne "breathe life" back into a Khorgorath ... sure. But, just because something comes out of the Brass Citadel, doesn't make it a Daemon.

 (Thanks for the interesting discussion btw!)

 

I wouldnt mix in lore from Tzeentch domain into Khorne's as we know that the Horrors are unique in the way they 'split-recreate' so to say. Another thing we know Khorne Daemons cannot do. The way one pantheon revolves around death and destruction while the other revolves around knowledge and change also means that each type of Daemon will follow it's own 'rules'.
I do think that every spawn of Khorne can be considered a Spawn of Chaos/Khorne but that isn't really the design we have recieved for Khorgoraths. In addition we still have the option to see mortal champions turning into Chaos Spawn (narrative wise and with Mark of the Destroyer) and for whatever reason not turn into Khorgoraths  . Would it be more logical to see them that way game-wise? Probably yes, but this isn't what the narrative or game system confirms, Khorgoraths are a Bloodletter (Daemonic) creation. 

As for something comming out of the Brass Citadel and not be Daemon,  the narrative speaks of them being created in the depths of the Brass Citadel by Bloodletters specifically to please the Blood God. In many ways this makes them being created there like Daemonic Artefacts, the (Daemonic) Skull Cannon and Juggernauts aswell...

Quote

Skull Cannons of Khorne
...These daemons are the same pair that oversaw the Skull Cannon’s creation in the furnaces beneath the Brass Citadel, and they take a creator’s pride in its every atrocity, prompting it onwards to claim more souls in the name of the Blood God. In truth, the Skull Cannons require little urging; they are as wrathful and murderous as any Khornate champion, and exult in the ruination and horror left behind in their wake.
Blades of Khorne, page 40

Quote

Blood Crushers
...If the daemon is deemed worthy of the blessings of Khorne, it is taken deep within the Brass Citadel to the great stockade, an enclosed steppe so large that its cracked earth dips beyond the horizon.
Blades of Khorne, page 43

Quote

Lords of Khorne (Axes of Khorne; Daemonic Weapons)
...Khorne rewards them with tools of violence, gifting them ensorcelled axes from one of Brass Citadel’s myriad furnaces.
...an axe of Khorne always bears the Blood God’s rune, and contains the bound essence of a raging daemon.
Blades of Khorne, 46

So if it's created in the depths Brass Citadel, Khorne's Daemonic domain, like many weapons, armours and artillery, I sure wouldn't think of it as a mortal being anymore. Like the narrative tells us, they once where X, like Valkia and Skarr once where mortal champions.
There is a lot going on in the Brass Citadel and other than the Khorgorath we know that everything that is created there is Daemonic. If anything it would again make more sence for the Khorgorath to be Daemonic aswell with the narrative we recieved for it.

@RuneBrush what is certainly true is that GW leaves a lot of options to create your own background, Skaarac is also such an example, perhaps being a fallen Daemon (like Skarbrand) perhaps being the first of the Khorgorath or perhaps being a creation of the Chaos Dwarfs. 
In addition we also see certain pieces of narrative being removed again to add some more logical depth to a character, such as Khul who used to be looking for immortality while being thousands of years old (Bloodbound) and now is a survivor of countless battles looking for immortality (Blades of Khorne). I personally prefer the latter because being thousands of years old practically makes you an immortal and would render his quest quite pointless.

[TheOtherJosh]

Amusingly enough Bell of Lost Souls has just put up a review of the Khorgorath from the Blades of Khorne battletome:

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/06/blades-of-khorne-review-khorgoraths.html

 

Though I'm not sure where the "Horrific Predator" being a stackable ability comes from.

 

Anyone have a source that clarifies that?

[misthv]

15 minutes ago, TheOtherJosh said:

Though I'm not sure where the "Horrific Predator" being a stackable ability comes from.

Why wouldnt in stack I'd you run several units (not models) of Khorgoraths? It doesn't say otherwise... Also, running several units would limit the possibility of buffing several Khorgoraths w prayers etc... 

[Killax]

Substract 1 is also cumulative. So yeah it does stack.

Now I didn't bother to read trough the whole article but I do think Khorgoraths are a fine choice for their cost. The only reason as to why I wouldn't run them all to often comes from their speed and if that's roughly the same as infantry you'll often see that for Khorne it means you run infantry instead.

Granted I will give them a go with Skulltake, I think they can easily make up their cost there and overall the combination of them and Skullreapers is good. The biggest advantage we get out of them and things like Bloodthirsters is that their attack quantity comes in hard at a smaller place as some of our larger units (e.g. 30 Bloodletters or 20-40 Bloodreavers can thake up quite some space).

Overall I like Khorgoraths now, like many of the BoK units, you can play them if you like them. If it wasn't for his mono pose I would likely run them a bit more often too. One of them looks great, 3 of them mono-posed don't  

[Killax]

Hi guys! We have the points for Mazarall now. Maby more, can't recall if the Exalted Bloodthirster was in the former document:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/aos_warscrolls/aos_matched_play_points.pdf?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=FWMatchedplayupdateJun7&utm_content=FWMatchedplayupdateJun7

My personal opinion is that 360 for Maz is a lot though  

 

[Jharen]

Yeah that's way too much for for Maz.  The Exalted Daemon of Khorne was not pointed before and 500 seems a tad high for him.  400 seems more fitting, maybe a tad higher.  Skaarac remains at 500 which is sad to see as he's not even as good as the Exalted Daemon.  Forgeworld points just make no sense in general.

[misthv]

5 hours ago, Killax said:

Granted I will give them a go with Skulltake, I think they can easily make up their cost there and overall the combination of them and Skullreapers is good.

Aren't you worried about the vulnerability and dependency of the Bloodstoker?

[Jharen]

I love Khorgoraths with the updated BoK warscroll.  I'd be running units of them if they had more models.  GW needs to release some varied models for these soon!  I think these are really one of our truly unsung heroes of BoK.  Compare them to a beast like Skarbrand for the point cost and I think Khorgoraths actually come out ahead in functionality.

400 points for Skarbrand nets you 4 Khorgoraths.

That's 32 Wounds at a 4+ save vs Skarbrands 14.

While Skarbrand remains solid here in his ability to just reliably wipe the floor with his opponent in damage output, the Khorgoraths honestly aren't that far behind in their ability to kill what they attack.  With their durability they're more likely to stick around, especially seeing as they don't tend to draw as much attention as Skarbrand.  Essentially they seem to work both as a possible tar pit AND shock troop all wrapped up into one nice little skull filled package.

[Killax]

45 minutes ago, misthv said:

Aren't you worried about the vulnerability and dependency of the Bloodstoker?

Not so much honestly. Rather have them thake him out as my Bloodsecrator and the basic move is before he can get shot down.

20 points for 2d6 move is akin to a free move for me (7" average) and for 3-4 units that translates to 5 point a unit to do that. To me its amazing because we get an Artefact on top of it. If you wat to keep the Skullmaster/Bloodmaster clean thats allright too. 

[Killax]

On 2017-6-7 at 8:21 PM, Jharen said:

I love Khorgoraths with the updated BoK warscroll.  I'd be running units of them if they had more models.  GW needs to release some varied models for these soon!  I think these are really one of our truly unsung heroes of BoK.  Compare them to a beast like Skarbrand for the point cost and I think Khorgoraths actually come out ahead in functionality.

400 points for Skarbrand nets you 4 Khorgoraths.

That's 32 Wounds at a 4+ save vs Skarbrands 14.

While Skarbrand remains solid here in his ability to just reliably wipe the floor with his opponent in damage output, the Khorgoraths honestly aren't that far behind in their ability to kill what they attack.  With their durability they're more likely to stick around, especially seeing as they don't tend to draw as much attention as Skarbrand.  Essentially they seem to work both as a possible tar pit AND shock troop all wrapped up into one nice little skull filled package.

With the Forge World PDF still not updated... All comments on it removed I think that your point regarding Khorgorath is still valid and even more valid once you consider the monsterous alternatives from FW  
Personally though I do think that Skarbrand vs 4 Khorgoraths isnt the perfect example but I do agree that both are viable choices. To me the coolest thing for the Khorgorath now is that they do offer us a big and hitty model with straight up 2 damage which is quite rare for Bloodbound. 

The only reason why I dont field them that often still has to do with the fact that compaired to our infantry we have less synergy available for them/him/it. However I do think that fielding 3 as a unit is a good plan and the fact that you can technically go up to 6 can make them a Deathstar with Slaughterpriest buffs if you feel inclined to do so. 

For me personally though I currently own 4 and am often on the hunt/plan to get more. I dont know why but I guess I do really like their design intention and generally think that the model is a really cool, unique and fluffy design. Other than its head I do like this model a lot and hope to see it appear in tandem in a multiple box. 

[Jharen]

58 minutes ago, Killax said:

Personally though I do think that Skarbrand vs 4 Khorgoraths isnt the perfect example but I do agree that both are viable choices. To me the coolest thing for the Khorgorath now is that they do offer us a big and hitty model with straight up 2 damage which is quite rare for Bloodbound.

Yeah I agree it's not the best example.  My point was more to compare Khorgoraths to the typical 'big killy thing' that people often like to have in their lists.  Khorgoraths seem to fit somewhere between those larger higher cost killing machines and lower costed shock troops.  Of course a beast like Skarbrand or any Bloodthirster still have there uses.  Skarbrand is pretty much a 'kill' button on whatever you put him against and the Bloodthirsters offer damage plus utility.  Khorgoraths offer a similar damage output in a much more enduring package.

I'm curious what synergy you feel we're lacking with the Khorgoraths.  They already have a very solid stat line so they don't need much help in the way of to hit or to wound.  They gain extra attacks from the Bloodsecrator, they can be whipped by the bloodstoker, and our slaughterpriest prayers can get them to a 2+ to hit and a 3+ save.

Really wish Forgeworld would fix Skaarac by lowering his cost or improving his warscroll.

[Killax]

Well Skaraac certainly would provide the right ammount of synergy at a slightly lower cost. In terms of what I wish for is that we had some more Battalions incorporating them as an option. While they can certainly become a bigger unit the fact that Skulltake is the only Battalion 'caring' for them is a bit of a missed chance for me. 

Eventually though I wouldn't be overly suprised to see Skaarac drop in cost and that would certainly open the doors completely to running more Khorgoraths. What Id like for Khorgoraths to appear is that models like Scyla or Bloodletters would actually interact a little bit more with them. Even if they (like Valkia or Skarr) would gain the Daemon Keyword next to the Mortal keyword they would have become a whole lot more flexible. 

However Im also aware that those types of double Keywords could easily lead to OP stuff. I'm really fine with the way Khorgorath function within our faction right now. 2 damage, short ranged attacks and 100 points make them a unique unit within our forces and that's good enough. 

[Centurio]

I'd like to get more khorgoraths , I do really like the model, but I don't like having them with the same pose.  I also with they would release a box to allow a different pose or two.

[MunchkinX2000]

I'd like to get more khorgoraths , I do really like the model, but I don't like having them with the same pose.  I also with they would release a box to allow a different pose or two.

 

[DOUBLE]

 

 

 

[MunchkinX2000]

I'd like to get more khorgoraths , I do really like the model, but I don't like having them with the same pose.  I also with they would release a box to allow a different pose or two.

Im sure they'll get around to putting out a box for them, eventually.

[mrstimpson38]

I'm happy with the models, I just wish they were Daemons instead of monsters. Same thing with Wrathmongers. But both are just wishful thinking.

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[kozokus]

2 hours ago, MunchkinX2000 said:

Im sure they'll get around to putting out a box for them, eventually.

After 2 years, after  two battletomes and no realease in the last one? Unlikely.

Even if i like Khorgoraths, i like having more bodies, more wounds and more attacks from the bloodsecrator ^^.

[Arkiham]

What's the view on this guy. 

360 points, hero, yay or nay

[Aspirant Snaeper]

I would likely use him for Narrative more than Matched. 

[Jharen]

Mazarall at 360 points is a bit too much.   He comes in looking similar to a Bloodthirster in raw stats.  He's a bit more of a tank than a Bloodthirster with his shield, but he's sitting at a slightly lower wound count.  He can't fly, but he does have a fast move.  His command ability is just laughable in my opinion, especially in context of the descriptive text.  Why am I making this guy a commander when a Bloodstoker does that same buff but better?  I guess I just don't see where this guy fits in to a list.  A Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster is a better sink for 360 points, and if you're looking for a big scary beat stick then you're only 40 points away from Skarbrand.  Like all daemon princes he also suffers from the "I don't really belong anywhere" state of having a khorne and daemon keyword and not fitting into any of the khorne daemon battalions.

[Killax]

2 hours ago, Arkiham said:

What's the view on this guy. 

360 points, hero, yay or nay

Roughly 40-60 points too much Im afraid.

I love the model but since BoK Artefacts and such it cant compete with WoK BT honestly.

[TheOtherJosh]

The problem with Khorne Daemon Princes in Blades of Khorne lists is that unless you're running either the "The Reapers of Vengeance" or The Bloodlords" warscroll battalions they don't get any additional benefits. (And they're an additional drop.)

[Killax]

Well a regular Daemon Prince with wings and Mark of the Slayer is legit at 160. However due to having no Command Ability hes less than ideal to be a General.

Then Valkia does pretty much the same output on the charge at 120 and Bloodbound and Mortal youll likely run her over a Daemon Prince.

Mazaralls design is fine but not 360 fine. At 300 or 320 hed be allright.