Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[CJPT]

The Tzaangor Enlightened warscroll is confusing. They get a pretty huge buff for being on discs, and as written there's no downside or points cost increase? It'd be really weird if the only thing stopping you from getting +1 move, +10" movement, flying movement, an extra D3 attacks with rend, and the Daemon keyword was taking the time to assemble the rest of the kit.

[Andreas]

But 30 Tzaangors looks great. And you can use the shaman to restore casulties. ☺

[Nico]

Remember that some people will use them on foot for Narrative Play.

 

[CJPT]

Actually, with that in mind: there are definitely mistakes in the current matched play profiles in the app. For example: Tzaangor minimum unit size is 5 on the scroll itself, which I trust, but 10 in the app.

[Andreas]

Just now, CJPT said:

Actually, with that in mind: there are definitely mistakes in the current matched play profiles in the app. For example: Tzaangor minimum unit size is 5 on the scroll itself, which I trust, but 10 in the app.

Same with Bestigors so that is not the first.

[CJPT]

Just now, Nico said:

Remember that some people will use them on foot for Narrative Play.

 

For sure. I'd actually prefer to assemble them on foot, I think. But this presents a tricky matched play issue. Like, the point of matched play should be that I can take whatever models I have and refer to a points chart to balance the game. Unless there's something in the book that clarifies this - which there might well be - you can't really do that with the Enlightened. They're two units in one, with one points value, and one of them is much more powerful. That's really weird.

[Nico]

Matched Play minimum sizes are often higher than for narrative play, e.g. Varanderpguard, Stormfiends, Morghasts.

[CJPT]

Further weirdness: there is no longer a warscroll that acknowledges that one of the Gaunt Summoner models has a disc - they're now both the same, with the same spell (Infernal Flames). However the Silver Tower Summoner with Familiars is still listed, including the Familiar buffs - at the same points value as the other Summoner.

I guess they might remove the points value for the Silver Tower version and make the official 'matched play approved' scroll the new one? Either way, looks like the older model with a disc has lost its flying movement/speed/etc.

I'm not trying to nitpick - more than anything else, these inconsistencies suggest to me that the app warscrolls aren't telling the whole story, and that the book will fill in these gaps.

[Rogue Explorator]

From a perspective of design principle, I find a lot of these warscrolls sketchy and overloaded.

 

Just looking at regular Tzaangor, the unit is just drowned out in overdesigned bits and bops:

 

To start with, the mix of two different design load outs for the basic models, though there are a hornblower and an iconbearer, that, modeled by the book, display no wargear, generating a real wysiwyg nightmare (did your hornblower have a shield or two blades)

Then there is two grandblades in every five models and the absolutely superflous one in five mutant "special" mini, that does not, from the kit I have and the studio army pictures, any official way of being modeled.

Even though there are established rules for gor standart bearers and musicians, as well as chaos icons, the iconbearer has a conditional damage rule, instead of a smooth, internally consistent and easily remembered passive boost, while the hornblower works like every other gor hornblower.

Then the unit has another conditional rule, depending on being in range of a hero and another strong, also conditional, rule, depending on headcounts, counted on an uneven number. And that even though at 180 pts for 10, they are hardly a horde style choice.

 

Don't get me wrong, they are playable and look like they may in fact be a strong battleline choice, but I'd happily payed less points for a weaker unit with a sleeker, more elegant design.

 

That is just looking at one unit, Akolytes look plagued by some simmilar clunkiness (though not quite as overloaded with special rules) as do enlightened/skyarrows.

 

For all of their improvements, GW once again shows that they are a miniature company and not a game design company.

[CJPT]

Edit: I miscalculated splitting costs first time around. New values below.

Sorry for the extended analysis - I got some more thoughts!

Thing one:

Horrors splitting makes some kind of sense now. When Pink Horrors die, you can either add two Blue Horrors each to a friendly Blue Horror unit within 6". When Blue Horrors die,  the same thing applies to Brimstone Horrors. If there is no unit within 6" in either case, you can create a new one (and pay a summoning cost in Matched Play). You can also create a new unit if the entire predecessor unit is wiped out in one go.

This pretty much works. Blue Horrors cost 50 points (minimum ten) and Brimstones are 40 points (minimum 10). This means that you need to pay a points tax for the 'feeder' unit, but on paper this should only ever cost you 180 points total - bringing the minimum cost of a Horror horde to about 320 points, which is pretty good for 40 wounds' worth of chaff.

Notably, the rules for splitting are on the Blue and Brimstone scrolls, so 140 point Pink Horrors remain much as they were. They still get the Iconbearer rule, allowing Pink Horrors to regenerate on a battleshock roll of 1. This occurs before you calculate how many casualties become Blue Horrors.

Pink Horrors, therefore, are an amazing place to use your Destiny Dice results of 1. You can regenerate Pink Horrors, then create Blue Horrors when you run out of Pinks, then regenerate Brimstone Horrors after that. Play it right and get a little lucky and that's potentially 50 wounds out of 320 points, or 100 out of 640 (!).

Thing two:

Has it ever been clarified whether or not keywords apply to units as a whole, or to every model within that unit? Here's why it matters:

Pink Horrors have the Wizard keyword and it is only in the 'Magic' section of they warscroll that it is clarified that the unit can cast one spell, rather than every single individual Pink Horror being able to cast a spell. However, if keywords apply to individual models, then technically every single Pink Horror is a Wizard, regardless of their ability to cast spells. Here's where that becomes important: the Tzaangor Icon Bearer rule:

"If this unit includes one or more Icon Bearer, then at the start of each of your hero phases, take a dice for each WIZARD (friend or foe) within 9" of this unit. Then, pick an enemy unit within 18" and roll the dice; the unit suffers a mortal wound for each roll of 4 or more."

If individual Pink Horrors count as Wizards, then sticking some Tzaangors behind 20 Horrors gives you an 18" shooting attack where you roll 20 dice and do a mortal wound on a 4+. That's insane, and I can't imagine that anybody would be happy interpreting the rules that way. But unless there's a clarification that I'm missing, it seems supported by the current rules-as-written. I definitely wouldn't do it, because I value my friendships. But yeah: scary.

 

[CJPT]

5 minutes ago, Rogue Explorator said:

To start with, the mix of two different design load outs for the basic models, thoughthen there are a hornblower and an iconbearer, that, modeled by the book, display no wargear, generating a real wysiwyg nightmare (did your hornblower have a shield or two blades)

then there is two grandblades in every five models and the absolutely superflous one in five mutant "special" mini, that does not, from the kit I have and the studio army pictures, any official way of being modeled.

I agree with your assessment overall, but I'd point out that there are both horns and banners on the 40K Tzaangor sprue, along with the special weapons. There's also one Tzaangor head that is splitting in two in a weird way - that could easily represent a mutant. To stress though, I definitely see where you're coming from with the rules. It's a lot of conditional synergies to remember.

Edit: sorry, I just saw where you're coming from with the wargear. Yep, that's weird.

[Malakithe]

Looks like the app is kinda updated. All of the new stuff is in the daemons category thou and none of the battalions are on yet. They will probably shuffle them around next week...also...

Why is the US site not updated yet...wwwhhhhyyyyy

[Phantajisto]

I'm not seeing Skyfires in the app... should they be there?

[Andy Bryan]

Well I'm a little disappointed in the change to Karios and more upset that it now makes my GT list overpointed, I've just emailed Games Workshop to find out whether I have to use the old version nor the heat or the new on day of release....

Thoughts folks?

[Rogue Explorator]

16 minutes ago, CJPT said:

Sorry for the extended analysis - I got some more thoughts!

Thing one:

Horrors splitting makes some kind of sense now. When Pink Horrors die, you can either add two Blue Horrors each to a friendly Blue Horror unit within 6". When Blue Horrors die,  the same thing applies to Brimstone Horrors. If there is no unit within 6" in either case, you can create a new one (and pay a summoning cost in Matched Play). You can also create a new unit if the entire predecessor unit is wiped out in one go.

This pretty much works. Blue Horrors cost 50 points (minimum ten) and Brimstones are 40 points (minimum 10). This means that you need to pay a points tax for the 'feeder' unit, but on paper this should only ever cost you 90 points total - bringing the minimum cost of a Horror horde to about 230 points, which is pretty good for 40 wounds' worth of chaff.

Notably, the rules for splitting are on the Blue and Brimstone scrolls, so 140 point Pink Horrors remain much as they were. They still get the Iconbearer rule, allowing Pink Horrors to regenerate on a battleshock roll of 1. This occurs before you calculate how many casualties become Blue Horrors.

Pink Horrors, therefore, are an amazing place to use your Destiny Dice results of 1. You can regenerate Pink Horrors, then create Blue Horrors when you run out of Pinks, then regenerate Brimstone Horrors after that. Play it right and get a little lucky and that's potentially 50 wounds out of 230 points, or 100 out of 460 (!).

I've posted on this before in rumor thread, but matched play splitting is an absolute headache.

A unit of pink horror will rarely be wiped out within one phase (phase is the important point here). Remember, you have to pay full points everytime a unit is brought in in any way or brought over their starting strength (which is the number of blue or brimstones originally split, not the max unit size you bought). So a unit of pinks being eliminated over multiple phases and turns, makes you pay full points for every split!

You can, of course, start the game with a unit of pinks, blues and brimstones each, but you are unlikely to get any advantage from that if your opponent knows the rules and has his target priorities in order. With the correct targeting, an opponent can completely deny you any "free horror" from refilling an existing unit.

Personally, I wouldn't bother attemting any splitting in Matched Play. You are likely to end up paying through your nose for splitting horrors, when you could just as well just summon a new unit of pinks and at least get the full number of models for your points.

[CJPT]

7 minutes ago, Rogue Explorator said:

Remember, you have to pay full points everytime a unit is brought in in any way or brought over their starting strength (which is the number of blue or brimstones originally split, not the max unit size you bought). So a unit of pinks being eliminated over multiple phases and turns, makes you pay full points for every split!

This seems like the key thing to FAQ, if you ask me. If they change it so that you only have to pay once to 'upgrade' the max. strength of a unit of blue horrors (so you'd never have to pay more than 100 points to split a full unit of 10 pink horrors into blues) then I think that'd work fine, and is actually more intuitive than the current system.

[wanderingrogue1]

12 minutes ago, Andy Bryan said:

Well I'm a little disappointed in the change to Karios and more upset that it now makes my GT list overpointed, I've just emailed Games Workshop to find out whether I have to use the old version nor the heat or the new on day of release....

Thoughts folks?

i asked this very question at whw today when i saw the scroll.

You will be using the old tzeemtch scrolls for the gt heat one. official announcement will be made monday re that.

 

[Malakithe]

Got my book+dice pre-ordered. The cool cards sold out on the US store in less then 10min lol

[Andy Bryan]

29 minutes ago, wanderingrogue1 said:

i asked this very question at whw today when i saw the scroll.

You will be using the old tzeemtch scrolls for the gt heat one. official announcement will be made monday re that.

 

Thanks no last minute painting for me and the last outing for the small Karios !!!!

[Rogue Explorator]

16 minutes ago, CJPT said:

This seems like the key thing to FAQ, if you ask me. If they change it so that you only have to pay once to 'upgrade' the max. strength of a unit of blue horrors (so you'd never have to pay more than 100 points to split a full unit of 10 pink horrors into blues) then I think that'd work fine, and is actually more intuitive than the current system.

That would be decent, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Of course, the thing for the opponent to do then, would be to kill of the split of units when they are still small, forcing you to create an altogether new unit once the pink horrors take damage, again making you pay.

 

My own hope was blue and brimestones free, but you can't take them in army selection and pinks take splitting into their pointcost. That would also have made the Thaumaturges spell more useful.

Of course, then we would also need 50 models just to play a unit of 10 pink horrors, but I guess the reason they had removed splitting for so many editions was that they couldn't figure how to rule it in a sane manner.

 

The only truly sane ruling I could think of would be to allow all kinds of horrors being able to transfer damage between nearby units of horrors, along with point free splitting. That way, you could always, juggle your damage in such way, that there are only a few blue and brimstone horrors on the table at any given point.

That would make pink horror units hellishly durable, but at least splitting would actually be used in matched play, and tables wouldn't be swamped with blue and brimstone horrors and Tzeentch players wouldn't be swamped with buying, assembling and painting them.

 

As things stands right now, I think the best option is to play horrors as though they didn't split in Matched Play and then go mad in Narrative Play (A.k.a. get into character).

[Azure Guardian]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/01/14/more-change-is-on-the-way/ So there's Kairos and co.

[Arkiham]

I wonder if they're changing the rules to the changling, as they say he's thrown off his disguise, so I wonder if they're making him more combat focused  on rather than infiltration 

[Nico]

Changeling Scroll looks identical (at first look).

Provided that splitting isn't mandatory (i.e. you can decide not to waste the points), then it's a good mechanic.

Stonelord comes in, deletes unit, brand new unit appears after he has done all its attacks, then it retreats out of combat and forms a brand new wall/pen around him.

Also extremely cheap chaff potentially.

[Nico]

Quote

To start with, the mix of two different design load outs for the basic models, though there are a hornblower and an iconbearer, that, modeled by the book, display no wargear, generating a real wysiwyg nightmare (did your hornblower have a shield or two blades)

Isn't there an FAQ question, which basically deals with this point (command models are armed with whatever, they don't need to carry 3 things)?

[Nico]

The splitting is potentially amazing for holding onto objectives. It means your enemy needs to kill the Pinks in the Hero Phase, then the Blues in the Shooting Phase and the Brimstone in the Combat Phase in order to dislodge the unit from an objective (obviously at the cost of the reinforcement points). Definitely interesting for some Battleplans. Killing 30 models only to end up with 120 at the end of the turn would be insanely fun. 

Ah - just noticed the unit caps are 30 for Blue and Brimstone, so that caps the effect.