Running Pure Beastclaw Raiders

[thediceabide]

So I'm looking at my Beastclaw Raiders army and trying to figure out how I could expand it, and even try playing pure Beastclaw Raiders in a competitive format. I have the typical army with a bunch of monsters and 3 units of Moonclan Grots, but has anyone tried (and had much luck with) running a large amount of Icefall Yhetees or Frost Sabres? I've been toying with lists that have ~20 Frost Sabres or ~12 Yhetees, but need to assemble more models before I can test it.

Here was one thought:

• Stonehorn Beastriders
• Huskard on Stonehorn (Tokens of Everwinter)
• Huskard on Thundertusk
• Skal
  • Icebrow Hunter (General, Massive Bulk or Famed Hunter, Pelt of Chargnar)
  • Icebrow Hunter
  • 3x6 Frost Sabres

Total: 2000

and another thought:

• Frostlord on Thundertusk (General, Pelt of Chargnar)
• Huskard on Thundertusk (Pelt of Chargnar)
• 5x3 Icefall Yhetees
• Skal
  • Icebrow Hunter
  • 2x6 Frost Sabres

Total: 1980

[kozokus]

From my testings, the "SKAL" part of the armybook is the weakest link.

BCR tends to be on the speed side of the spectrum and cut in the resilience and strenght department.

The Frostsaber are something that have left me speechless. They are weaker than a unit of libérator, more fragile than a unit of bloodreavers, but, yeah, fast they are. They do not even compare very good with a unit of their own book : the yetis. 3 yetis costs as much as 4 sabers any yet, they are exactly 50% more powerful and resistent. 50%!! Sabers are also incredibly vulnerable to battleshock. The only thing they do not have is the synergy with the poor hunter and the SKAL formation. Speaking of that, it is nice to teleport but do you really need it when you have move9" and part of the destruction GA?

The only thing they are good at is point fixing and cheap objectives grabber. That beeing said, i pick yetis over sabers every days.

The problem you will have with BCR is that your non-behemoth troop choices tend to be overcosted from beeing fast.

[Mohojoe]

Currently looking at the options myself and have been considering

Frostlord on stonehorn

Huskard on thundertusk

Icebrow hunter as general

2 mournfang 

4 mournfang

12 sabretusk

SKAL

(Off top of my head, may be slightly wrong)

The idea being that i split up the mournfang and use 2 to block the huskard from being charged by turning them on their side and teleport the sabretusks as a tarpit to tie up objectives.

 

I am currently looking at using yehtees instead but I haven't had much of a chance to go in depth yet.  Will look forward to seeing the discussion here as I love pure BCR and really enjoy the fluff behind them. 

[Nico]

Quote

Speaking of that, it is nice to teleport but do you really need it when you have move9" and part of the destruction GA?

To be fair (and I think Russ Veal pointed this out on Facehammer), the Skal does give you a reliable (effectively a charge on a 6 since the Sabres get plus 3 to charge) deepstrike option. However, this is more beneficial to a non-BCR army (e.g. a Moonclan defensive grind army that could do with a way to threaten enemy mortars in the back or nab objectives), rather than to a BCR army which needs expendable chaff/bunker walls/bodies to score objectives. You don't want to be in the situation where a 200 point Mournfang unit is playing Guard Duty on an objective (I made this mistake in m very first tournament London's Calling 2015, where I ended up with 5 Chosen guarding an objective. 

If you want to be competitive, then Grots (Gitmob or Moonclan) or Savage Orruks (not necessarily Arrer Boyz) are the way to go. You need the bodies and you need reasonably tough bodies at that.

[thediceabide]

8 hours ago, Nico said:

To be fair (and I think Russ Veal pointed this out on Facehammer), the Skal does give you a reliable (effectively a charge on a 6 since the Sabres get plus 3 to charge) deepstrike option. However, this is more beneficial to a non-BCR army (e.g. a Moonclan defensive grind army that could do with a way to threaten enemy mortars in the back or nab objectives), rather than to a BCR army which needs expendable chaff/bunker walls/bodies to score objectives. You don't want to be in the situation where a 200 point Mournfang unit is playing Guard Duty on an objective (I made this mistake in m very first tournament London's Calling 2015, where I ended up with 5 Chosen guarding an objective. 

If you want to be competitive, then Grots (Gitmob or Moonclan) or Savage Orruks (not necessarily Arrer Boyz) are the way to go. You need the bodies and you need reasonably tough bodies at that.

Yeah, I agree about needing bodies (obviously), I'm just trying to think outside the box of Grots or Savage Orruks, or inside the box of Beastclaw Raiders, haha. Despite being a bit expensive, the Frost Sabres and their ability to charge after ambushing about 72% of the time can be pretty nice for assassinating small units and characters... Maybe something more like this:

• Icebrow Hunter (General, Massive Bulk, Pelt of Chargnar)
• Huskard on Stonehorn (Tokens of Everwinter)
• Huskard on Thundertusk
• Huskard on Thundertusk
• 3x4 Frost Sabres
• 3x3 Icefall Yhetees
• Skal
   
• Total: 2000

Still uses the Skal formation, but less invested in it this time, and bulks out a few more more models with the Icefall Yhetees. Half tempted to drop the Huskard on Stonehorn for 9 more Yhetees, or a mix of Yhetees and Frostsabres.

[Mohojoe]

Why no mournfang? I assume its due to the low model number to points?

[thediceabide]

2 minutes ago, Mohojoe said:

Why no mournfang? I assume its due to the low model number to points?

Yup, 2 models for 200 points... it's very easy to end up with a 12-model army, haha.

[Nico]

Even if you're sticking to allegiance for better battle line option (which makes sense compared to taking Mournfang), it still seems that the Destruction Allegiance Pack is better. Battle Brew and Talisman of Protection are both excellent.

I would also argue that you cannot compete without mystic shield or an equivalent. It's so important.

[whispersofblood]

The Skal is an extremely competitive choice. 

It has a lot of leverage in matched play.

To start it gets you a roll on the artifact table, for 20 pts. 

Its a good formation as its a good way to be 60 points under the total game size for a triumph.

It is a 0 deployment for up anywhere between 3 and 16 activations, giving you a great opportunity to go first and drop all those nasty 6 mortal wound attacks on vexillators and other such annoying strategic characters

They are great at piling on activations through out the phase so you can pile on wounds for battle shock. 

They are very good at pining enemy models in combat with an average 10" charge and good enough at killing crew on warmachines, things like WLC, etc. (remember they re-roll '1' to wound when they charge, and you can pop your triumph round 1 if you desire)

They are also great at creating areas where units will lock themselves in combat just to get in range of using their abilities, or bubble wraping against vexillators, summons, and skaven tunnel battalion.

But, there are things to keep in mind. Keep it cheap, if you have to take a battleshock test outside of 16 from the Hunter there is a good chance you could lose 2 more frost fangs. So, a simple unit of 2 will more often than not get the job done or be cheap enough that it doesn't matter.  A hunter is a mediocre character, but if you are running a Jorlbad you already re-roll BS so having your general elsewhere could be beneficial. 

 

[kozokus]

13 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

They are great at piling on activations through out the phase so you can pile on wounds for battle shock. 

WHAT? what did you mean?

13 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

To start it gets you a roll on the artifact table, for 20 pts. 

It is 60 points

13 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Its a good formation as its a good way to be 60 points under the total game size for a triumph.

I admit i stopped trying to understand past that sentence.

[OlDirtyCosta]

I haven't brought it to any tournaments but, I have been doing well with this lately.   Its pure Beastclaw but, using Destruction allegiance abilities.  The Huskard without doing the math out seems to do more damage then a Frostlord to be honest.    As soon as I get him into a meaty unit I double sip.  If my opponent doesn't screen properly I'll double sip first turn even.  Im not saying its winning GTs but, it does pretty well.  He does one extra damage with all of his attacks.  Should almost be always hitting on 2's wounding on 2's.  Any roll of a 3 to wound is one additional mortal wound on top of his normal damage.  

[Arael]

Sorry im not  understanding How can a huscar do more dmg than a frostlord?

What are un referring to when u speak of Mortal wounds on 3+?

Tnk

[kozokus]

3 hours ago, Arael said:

Sorry im not  understanding How can a huscar do more dmg than a frostlord?

I think he is talking about the Huskard on Stonehorn that is part of an EURLBAD. He gets +1 dmg on all of his weapons, mounts uncluded. Beeing part of that bataillon also get him dealing ADDITIONAL mortal wounds on 6+ to wound. Coupled with a battlebrew two swig it become 4+ = mortal wound. (I don't know how he comes to 3+)

So... STATISTICALLY it is slightly better than a Stonelord but you miss several key things, like the 13 wounds, the modified dammage chart and the 3+ sav (and the nice Command if he is your general)

[Nico]

Quote

So... STATISTICALLY it is slightly better than a Stonelord but you miss several key things, like the 13 wounds, the modified dammage chart and the 3+ sav (and the nice Command if he is your general)

The main thing you'll miss is the 400 points that you've had to spend on Mournfang! Please make them cheaper (rather than making Stormfiends more expensive). Listen to Facehammer before you think about this combo. 

Mournfang 180 for 2 models. Clan Skryre can go to 260 points (it has never lived up to its reputation - Darran Palmer came close at SCGT), make Varanguard 100 for one model, Archai 100 for one model (or Deathlords allegiance pack), Stormfiends stay at 3 for 300. Tempestors can go down to 200 for 2 (if most people think they are bad - I don't). Lightning Echelon is garbage on the table (it looks SO much better on paper) and should go down in cost by half:

 

[kozokus]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

2 hours ago, Nico said:

The main thing you'll miss is the 400 points that you've had to spend on Mournfang!

 

Anyway. Even at 180 i hardly look at them. You need a reliable way to have 5+ guard units to not autoloose on takenhold and bcr dont have any. You can try with à 180point unit of saber but prepare tout bé disapointed.

[james.speller]

5 hours ago, kozokus said:

Anyway. Even at 180 i hardly look at them. You need a reliable way to have 5+ guard units to not autoloose on takenhold and bcr dont have any. You can try with à 180point unit of saber but prepare tout bé disapointed.

Just played in a 1500 point tournament and I can say that BCR struggle leaving any kind of unit behind to capture a point. It was even worse for me, as my opponent had the stormcast man with the teleport banner and some retributors that could auto-win if I moved off the point with a unit of 4 mournfang

Admittedly it was my first few games with them, and I haven't worked out whether I should split mournfang to 2 units of 2 over 1 of 4. 

I think on the whole the army has problems leaving anything behind to hold objectives.

[Nico]

Sam the Slayer tried to do that to me with Retributors at Rain of Stars. Worth bearing in mind that one you are firmly camped on his objective or just have a single model near it that isn't going to die - you can move off your own one temporarily and still win.

[Karchev23]

I played my first tournament with vanilla Beastclaws and didnt do as bad as i thought. To be fair it was 2500 pts so its better.

We do better at the 2000 -2500 mark, more points for more stuff but there is one way ( for me atleast ) to play Beastclaws. The Olwr Alfrostun. Yes you need 3 units of mournfang but honestly the extra mortal wounds on 6's in addition to normal wounds is horrendously good, aswell as the extra damage for the huskard is awesome. The olwr also gives mournfangs and +1 to hit on their tusks ( with a full unit 16 attacks hitting in 3's is pretty narly which can potentially roll a bunch of 6's for mortal wounds. AND you can re roll all run rolls for your army. 

We really struggle with objective based games, we are all about the alpha strike. From my perspective list building is ofcourse important, but its how you use that list is the clincher. Tactics, board control and careful charge placement is how we do things, setting up back up charges is also important for us. We are an alpha strike faction and the opponent cant control any objectives if your in his face on the 1st turn