Best Battleline Choice for 2000 Point Destruction

[Baron_Bathory]

Hey all!

Thanks a bunch to everyone for the help with my up and coming Ironjaws army. Unfortunately it turns out I don't really have enough at the moment to field a 2000 point force. For the time being I'm going to be playing with a general Destro list. No argument here, the army is fun as hell and has a lot of good things going for it. 

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out what to do for the min core. I had a game the other day where I played 3 units of 10 regular orc arrer boyz. They did a whole lot of nothing. Probably should have played them with choppas or spears. What have you guys been doing? And do we need to play 3 completely separate units? Or can I for example play 1 unit of 30 orc boyz?

I want to use this thread as the beginnings of crowd sourcing an amazing destro list. More posts to come once we figure this out.

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

[Furious]

Three separate drops are required. This is the big question - do you pay the minimum tax and focus on the rest of your army, or do you invest in your poorer performing battleline units?

If you are going the first route, I've found units of 10 Orruks with arrows to perform decently well, considering. 20 grots are a waste, as are 10 Orruks. Another good choice is Ogors as well, and of course the two-wound-per-model Savage orruks.

If you want to invest, then groups of 30 or 40 orruks run well. For example, you could drop 30-40 orruks with spears, and put in front of them two units of 10 orruks with two hand weapons or hw+shields, that that could be a relatively cheap and effective battleline - you have them all move together, treating the front orruks as an initial dampening for the spears, who will be getting two attacks each while there are still 20 or more of them. Buff them with a Warboss holding the Waaagh Banner and using his CA, and you've got a nasty little blender.

As well, units of 40 grots are good. Bows if you go gitmob, spears if moonclan. Take advantage of skulkers/fanatics/nets!

Hope that helps.

[N_Watson]

I am of the opinion that of everything Destruction has to offer that in matched play either 20 moonclan grots with shields and a few netters is the best.

Above 10 models, you have a bravery of 7 while more than 3 inches from the enemy and a save of 4+ against shooting. 

If you are regarding battle line as a tax, you can't really get better than this. For am extra 30 points, you can stick in a fanatic to block charges .  For holding an objective, they are really good.

Taking 10 orruk archers is a unit with 10 models and 10 wounds vs 20 models and 20 wounds. 

Providing the orrucs do not move, they can hope to do 2 wounds against the average 5+ save. 

They have a 5+ save and lower bravery vs shooting. 

 

[Donal]

What else are you currently running in your list? it's a fairly general question and really depends on what else you are running. Depending on what role you want the battleline unit to play, and what leaders you are using should help you determine what works best for your list. AoS is largely about synergy and investing 300-360 points, almost 20% of your army into units that you  don't expect a return on puts you at a severe handicap (compared to order for example that happily takes Judicators).

When I look at which battleline unit to take I think about a) what synergises/supports the army well and b) what will be buffed/supported by leaders. 

So going with that theory, what else are you running in the list?

 

[thediceabide]

I'm a massive fan of either units of 10 Savage Orruks, 20 wounds is just awesome, or units of 3 Ogors. I don't rate regular Greenskins Orruks highly, but I would consider units of 20 Moonclan Grots.

[AlexHarrison]

Still shocks me that Orruks are 2 wounds each for a 100 point unit. Especially Arrow Boys. Whoever chose those points values were insane. Savage Orruks are definitely point for point some of the best battleline. 2 Wounds for a troop unit is insane!

[Chris Tomlin]

17 hours ago, Donal said:

What else are you currently running in your list? it's a fairly general question and really depends on what else you are running. Depending on what role you want the battleline unit to play, and what leaders you are using should help you determine what works best for your list. AoS is largely about synergy and investing 300-360 points, almost 20% of your army into units that you  don't expect a return on puts you at a severe handicap (compared to order for example that happily takes Judicators).

When I look at which battleline unit to take I think about a) what synergises/supports the army well and b) what will be buffed/supported by leaders. 

So going with that theory, what else are you running in the list?

 

Actually, I'm not sure I totally agree with this. I am talking purely from a Destruction point of view here and of course, synergy is super important. If you can build this into your battleline then great - when going pure faction, Destruction does this well without effort. However, when branching out into a mixed Destruction list it can be very much the case that you are just sinking points into a tax. Now arguably this is a bad way to list write and trying to see them as more than a tax and further investing to buff/synergise is potentially a valid way to go. But I find that most mixed Destruction lists only want to take 300 points in generic battleline to maximise the points available for the juicy stuff (Stonehorns, Brutes or whatever). With this being the case I think the best we can hope for is to use the units as they are for potential objective grabbers, as neither Orruks nor Grots can be relied upon for damage (more on Ogors later).

For the most part we are looking at 20 wounds for our 100 points, either in 10 models (Orruks) or 20 (Grots). There are advantages both ways here - greater battleshock tests per dead Grot as opposed to larger number of models. I think I lot of the time the choice can just come down to aesthetics. For example, I don't see a way to get Moonclan Grots to fit in with my army theme, so will go Savage Orruks for that reason alone. Now, all things being equal...

18 hours ago, N_Watson said:

I am of the opinion that of everything Destruction has to offer that in matched play either 20 moonclan grots with shields and a few netters is the best.

Above 10 models, you have a bravery of 7 while more than 3 inches from the enemy and a save of 4+ against shooting. 

If you are regarding battle line as a tax, you can't really get better than this. For am extra 30 points, you can stick in a fanatic to block charges .  For holding an objective, they are really good.

....I agree with this post. For me that is the most efficient way to spend your battleline points in a vacuum without considering any potential synergy.

There is another option, the slightly more expensive Ogors (120 for 3). These have less wounds than the Savages or Grots (12 in the unit) so are less efficient that way. However the smaller footprint is not to be underestimated, although could also be considered a negative if you're considering them as a blocking unit. Interesting depending on your thought process!! Where these really shine though is that they can actually kick out some damage, working quite well as a support unit.

Some very very vague and basic thoughts there. I'd love to really go in depth with all the generic battleline choices, but at the end of the day I'm not sure there's enough of a difference for it to really matter. It's perhaps clichéd and lazy, but I genuinely think just picking the ones you like best is valid (unless you want to invest more thant 300-360 points to actually get something out of them!!).

Chris

[Donal]

17 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Actually, I'm not sure I totally agree with this. I am talking purely from a Destruction point of view here and of course, synergy is super important. If you can build this into your battleline then great - when going pure faction, Destruction does this well without effort. However, when branching out into a mixed Destruction list it can be very much the case that you are just sinking points into a tax. Now arguably this is a bad way to list write and trying to see them as more than a tax and further investing to buff/synergise is potentially a valid way to go. But I find that most mixed Destruction lists only want to take 300 points in generic battleline to maximise the points available for the juicy stuff (Stonehorns, Brutes or whatever). With this being the case I think the best we can hope for is to use the units as they are for potential objective grabbers, as neither Orruks nor Grots can be relied upon for damage (more on Ogors later).

For the most part we are looking at 20 wounds for our 100 points, either in 10 models (Orruks) or 20 (Grots). There are advantages both ways here - greater battleshock tests per dead Grot as opposed to larger number of models. I think I lot of the time the choice can just come down to aesthetics. For example, I don't see a way to get Moonclan Grots to fit in with my army theme, so will go Savage Orruks for that reason alone. Now, all things being equal...

I didn't mean to suggest that someone should spend more than 300-360 on battleline necessary, but deciding on the optimal selection depends on what they are taking in the rest of the list. 

For example, does the battleline unit fit in a battalion that your taking - therefore less drops and better chance to decide who goes first. If you are running a butcher / brusier BSB then ogors are more interesting since they provide some options. Equally if they are want to shoot with arrowboys then savage orruks are great (and they therefore open kunning ruk).

Or in the way you want to play the army can affect the choice. Take your Orruk vs Grot example, if the army general has a command ability that is going to be used, or will not be around to put inspiring presence on a battleline unit then orruks may be more attractive than grots (since battleshock damage will be less). Equally if you expect the battline units to have alot of shooting directed to them (e.g. you dont have alot of threats/bodies) then you might want to use. 

By trying to make sure the battleine unit can work with your army it reduces the tax burden.

That said, aesthetics can be important - particularly in a pretty army  

[Chris Tomlin]

@Donal - You're being very eloquent and making nice points, but for the most part the mixed Destruction lists I've seen literally just want to spend 300 points on whatever in order to open up the other things and make their list legal for matched play. I've seen very few lists where the choice actually matters by way of synergies. Though, there is definite merit in what you say, for example adding a Kunnin' Rukk to Beastclaw or Ironjawz to go some way to fulfil battleline and actually do something...though this is more than just battleline, which is what (I thought) we were talking about. I guess you may be right in asking @Baron_Bathory for more info on his list to ascertain whether this is the case haha!

I did like your point on Inspiring Presence though, that should definitely be of note.

It could certainly make for some interesting conversation as to whether it is worth augmenting/investing more in your battleline to get more out of it. That could be adding supporting units (even just as simple as a 30pt Fanatic as mentioned by @N_Watson) or making the units bigger.

That said, at the business end of list construction I can see these things being the first to get trimmed back!

[Baron_Bathory]

Heya!

As usual you've all made amazing points and given me a lot to think about.

@Furious I kind of like the idea of one tough orc unit with a couple of small nose bleeders to protect them. At least I can use them as  something that the enemy might have to look at and divert some tougher units. Thanks for the input!

@N_Watson The night gobbos look like they might be at least somewhat useful. With spears and shields they actually could be a nuisance. SO MANY OPTIONS!

@Donal A fair question indeed. Right now I'm kind of just running a Frankenstein of a list. Played against high elves a few of days ago and lost by a hair, damn Phoenix Guard are cheesier than they ever were. List is as follows:

Grimgor

10 Orruk Arrer Boyz - 100
10 Orruk Arrer Boyz - 100
10 Orruk Arrer Boyz - 100

10 Ardboyz  - 180
10 Ardboyz - 180

1 Orruk Boar Chariot - 80

3 Trolls - 200
3 Trolls - 200
3 Trolls - 200

1 Mangler Squigs - 240

1 Arachnarok Spider - 280

 

Open to suggestions for whatever should be changed.

@thediceabide @AlexHarrison I'm actually loving this idea. Morboyz do seem pretty kick ****** for their points. I mean they were arguably the best core unit in 8th edition. O&Gs were the only army that could make a death star our of their core tax. It's only right that they carried that title to AoS

@Chris Tomlin Awesome advice as always. I think taking everything into consideration it's pretty much between night grots, savage orruks, or the ogre core whatever they're called.

I'm always hesitant to ask "whats the best", I know often times its more complicated than that. But in games like these, there usually always is a best choice that puts out superior numbers on average. Especially with "toughness" no longer a thing, we can measure the power:point ratio of units better than we ever could, and there's almost ALWAYS a hierarchy for every unit slot.

Thanks again everyone! I'll try out what I have for now, that being the night gobbos and the savage orcs. If it doesn't go well, I'll see if I can run some sims with the ogre core.

 

 

[thediceabide]

17 minutes ago, Baron_Bathory said:

Grimgor

10 Orruk Arrer Boyz - 100
10 Orruk Arrer Boyz - 100
10 Orruk Arrer Boyz - 100

10 Ardboyz  - 180
10 Ardboyz - 180

1 Orruk Boar Chariot - 80

3 Trolls - 200
3 Trolls - 200
3 Trolls - 200

1 Mangler Squigs - 240

1 Arachnarok Spider - 280

Unfortunately, you've made another list without any Battleline. I'd really advise picking up the General's Handbook if you're going to play Matched Play, it's inexpensive and worth every penny. Orruk Arrer Boyz (and Morboyz) aren't Battleline, not even in a Bonesplitterz army, so at minimum you'll have to downgrade the Arrer Boyz to regular Savage Orruks to make it legal for Matched Play.

Personally, I'm not sure the Ardboyz really fit in the list either, of any unit from Ironjawz they're my least favorite, I'd prefer Brutes instead, maybe even a big unit of 10 of them.

Reading comprehension FTW, haha. Either way, I still probably wouldn't take regular Orruk Arrers, call me bias but I don't care for those weedy 1 wound gits, I'd still rather take Moonclan Grots!

[N_Watson]

4 minutes ago, thediceabide said:

Unfortunately, you've made another list without any Battleline. I'd really advise picking up the General's Handbook if you're going to play Matched Play, it's inexpensive and worth every penny. Orruk Arrer Boyz (and Morboyz) aren't Battleline, not even in a Bonesplitterz army, so at minimum you'll have to downgrade the Arrer Boyz to regular Savage Orruks to make it legal for Matched Play. Personally, I'm not sure the Ardboyz really fit in the list either, of any unit from Ironjawz they're my least favorite, I'd prefer Brutes instead, maybe even a big unit of 10 of them.

Savage orruc arrer boys are not battle line. That isn't what he said he took.   

 

[thediceabide]

1 minute ago, N_Watson said:

Savage orruc arrer boys are not battle line. That isn't what he said he took.   

 

Oh derp, misread that, I didn't even assume they weren't Savage Orruk, I rarely see anyone take regular Orruks, lol.

[N_Watson]

@thediceabide I know right? I think there are worse choices for battle line tax, but I don't think I would take them. 

[Furious]

The Greenskinz just need the same treatment the Bonesplits got - at two wounds, Greenskinz would be at equal footing with their (even more) barbaric cousins. Yet right now, they're the same price, and would otherwise be similarly effective in combat, depending on circumstance of course.

It used to be that the normal orruks were more hearty, and the savages more killy. Now savages have them out-gamed on both fronts.

But I digress. I use units of 10 arrer boyz for battle line tax. I've had success with them - people tend to not see them as any sort of threat so they leave them alone. Meanwhile, the orruks run off to capture objectives. But when I do take them, it's units of 10 simply to pay the tax. I might do a unit of 20, but synergy for them isn't worth it - they're lousy in combat and easy to kill, so there's no point in buffing them with command abilities, a banner, or even putting them to 20+ because that extra attack doesn't occur during the shooting phase.

[Donal]

I would take a kunning ruk with that list. So at least one battle line unit as 10 savage orruks and then put the arrer boys as as unit of 30 for the +1attack. You could even take 3 units of 10 savage orruks in that list and it reduces your drops significantly.

@Furious

Why does the extra attack not occur in the shooting phase? Not sure if I'm missing something

[Furious]

Their "Mob Rule" ability specifically notes that the one extra attack applies to their melee weapons.

[Donal]

ah ok, for the normal orruk boys with arrows. 

@Baron_Bathory - sorry i thought you were using savage orruk arrer boyz... So much greenskins these days it gets confusing

[foolsama]

I looked at taking gobbos for battleline (the gitmob goblins can be equipped with bows!!), and didn't realize the fanatics bit, that's pretty nifty.

In my experience, if you're going mixed destruction, the only sensible way to do it is 3 units of 6+ ogors (2x6 and 1x9 seems to be best), with Banner and Hero support (Tyrant and/or butcher), and then some Beastclaw monsters. With synergies and undercosted units, you don't lose. Ever.

Otherwise, go for faction-specific (and still lose. I only see Bonesplittaz as being 'competitive') for the flava!

Here is your daily win:

Leaders
Huskard on Thundertusk (340)
Huskard on Stonehorn (380)
- Artefact: Battle Brew
Bruiser Standard Bearer (140)
Tyrant (160)
- General
- Massive Ogre Club
- Trait: Ravager
Butcher (140)

Units
Ogors x 6 (240)
Ogors x 6 (240)
Ogors x 9 (360)

Total: 2000/2000

[Nico]

Quote

In my experience, if you're going mixed destruction, the only sensible way to do it is 3 units of 6+ ogors (2x6 and 1x9 seems to be best), with Banner and Hero support (Tyrant and/or butcher), and then some Beastclaw monsters. With synergies and undercosted units, you don't lose. Ever.

Not sure that's true.

Why would I take bravery 6 Ogors with a 5+ save when I could take 20 Moonclan Grots which are a 4+ save against shooting and effective bravery 7 if they have 10 or more models against shooting (each model that flees is 4 times worse) - plus the Grots also provide the model count you need for scoring. The Tyrant provides zero support (i.e. synergy) - let's eat my own models - great. The banner is quite good though.

 

[Furious]

In that situation, sure, moonclan grots are better. But they have no offensive power in that position. At least the ogors are going to get something done in combat. They're bravery is for sure something to be scared about though.

But even from that perspective, it really all depends on what roles the rest of your army fill out.

[foolsama]

The ogor banners in their own unit are pretty sick, especially with no rules against, you can take all three of them, so you get an extra 'look out sir' for all incoming damage, plus negatives to enemy bravery. With the Tyrant - D3 wounds on a unit with 24 wounds is trivial - and then that unit no longer takes battleshock tests. With only 3 units, by the end of the game, no one's taking battleshock. The ogors essentially out-elite everything; they're tankier than ardboyz, do more damage than a squad of 5 brutes, and are cheaper than stormfiends. then with the right buffs, you're doing 3/3/-/2 rerolling hits *and* wounds x18 (or 36), with two save rolls.

combine that with heroes and the beastclaw mammoths (more under-costed units).... no one in my FLGC has beaten this army. We build our lists for it, and are better players for it, but we still lose every game.

[Nico]

Quote

The ogors essentially out-elite everything; they're tankier than ardboyz, do more damage than a squad of 5 brutes, and are cheaper than stormfiends. then with the right buffs, you're doing 3/3/-/2 rerolling hits *and* wounds x18 (or 36), with two save rolls.

This is a quite an exaggerations. Ardboyz have a 4+ save - that is so much better than a 5+ save it's colossal. Ardboyz may also have shields against regular wounds. The Lookout thing only works against shooting and is on a 6+. They are going to get shot slightly and the Battleshocked off the table - so much so that your opponent might even take the first turn and split fire at them before you can make any of them immune to Battleshock.

I'm pretty sure Ogors hit on 4+ and there's no way to buff that - don't pretend you're going to use Bellowing Shout on mediocre Battleline units.

[N_Watson]

13 hours ago, foolsama said:

The ogor banners in their own unit are pretty sick, especially with no rules against, you can take all three of them, so you get an extra 'look out sir' for all incoming damage, plus negatives to enemy bravery. With the Tyrant - D3 wounds on a unit with 24 wounds is trivial - and then that unit no longer takes battleshock tests. With only 3 units, by the end of the game, no one's taking battleshock. The ogors essentially out-elite everything; they're tankier than ardboyz, do more damage than a squad of 5 brutes, and are cheaper than stormfiends. then with the right buffs, you're doing 3/3/-/2 rerolling hits *and* wounds x18 (or 36), with two save rolls.
 

Well a unit of 6 ogors at 240 points in buffed will do an average of 4 damage to a unit with a 5 up save and a unit of 5 brutes in buffed for 180 points will do an average of 7 damage. 

I agree that ogors have the easiest potential to do good damage as a battle line choice but you should only compare them to grots, orrucs and savage orrucs when making this point as Ironjawz are are specialist battle line and will normally outperform all choices 1on 1. 

Although a20 man unit of moonclan grots with shields, netters and 2fanatics 180 points might be better than 10 ardboy.  

[Donal]

15 hours ago, Nico said:

Not sure that's true.

Why would I take bravery 6 Ogors with a 5+ save when I could take 20 Moonclan Grots which are a 4+ save against shooting and effective bravery 7 if they have 10 or more models against shooting (each model that flees is 4 times worse) - plus the Grots also provide the model count you need for scoring. The Tyrant provides zero support (i.e. synergy) - let's eat my own models - great. The banner is quite good though.

 

Does that mean the unit of grots takes both bad moon banner and grot flag? I didnt realise that was possible.