ADDriot Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Hi guys I'm continuing to build on my Khorne Bloodbound force and I think I'll will be adding an Everchosen contingent at some point because the minis are incredible. My question is, are Varanguard worth it? How do they perform in scenarios? Is their damage output worth it? They seem pricey points wise. I have the old Archaon mounted on horseback and I plan on getting the new Archaon model at some point. It seems that they need a version of Archaon on the table to be at their best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Quote My question is, are they worth it? Sadly no. Quote How do they perform in scenarios? Badly. They are less tough than Dracoth Knights and do less damage. Quote Is their damage output worth it? Nope. Quote They seem pricey points wise. You got it. They pale in comparison to Stormfiends. If you are using them, then little Archaon (got annoyed with Dorghar's lack of rend and killed him, acquired new horse) is the better bet. The main problem is then that other command abilities to put on them aren't great - probably Slannesh ones are the best. Since you're Khorne, the Khorne ones will suffer from the buffer being too slow and short ranged (Aspiring Deathbringer?). The Bloodsecrator is ok, but it's not the huge buff that it is on Bloodreaver/Bloodwarriors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bjarni St. Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Their damage output is good but as Nico said it's really hard to justify the price premium. They're not unplayable though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADDriot Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 Such a shame. Such beautiful models, you'd hope they'd be a more worthy take for lists. I'll still field them because of fluff and rule of cool but it's disappointing that they don't measure up on the whole. Any tips for getting the most out of them if I do run them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louzi Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 First: I disagree, that Dracothian are better. Dracothian and Varanguard cost 120 per model what is not too much (just think about all those useless heroes for 120 points...). But what makes the Varanguard worse is this dumb unit size. 2 or 4 models are much better than 3 or 6. I would immediately take 4 Varanguard for 480 points in every list. But 3 models are not enough and 6 for 720 points are just too much points. Second: Dont forget that you can buff your Varanguard. I think about a Harbringer, Orghott, all the Khorne buffs etc. Third: The biggest problem is, that they get their keywords in game. Varanguard would be so so good, if the would get the keywords when setting up. In that case you could play Nurgle Rotbringers with Blightkings as battleline (!) and so much more. So, if first and third would have been fixed (what isnt too complicated), the Varanguard would be played much more. I rly should work for GW. It seems they are all brainless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Take Little Archaon and make them Slaanesh and use both command abilities from the Lord on foot and the Lord on the Derpy Snake that shatters into a billion pieces when you drop it. Give them Fellspears. Possibly use the Overlords of Chaos formation so you know when you're going to get a double turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Quote First: I disagree, that Dracothian are better. Dracothian and Varanguard cost 120 per model what is not too much (just think about all those useless heroes for 120 points...). But what makes the Varanguard worse is this dumb unit size. 2 or 4 models are much better than 3 or 6. I would immediately take 4 Varanguard for 480 points in every list. But 3 models are not enough and 6 for 720 points are just too much points. Yeah the unit size is a pain. I remember when you could take them as ones under SCGT. Stormcast can take them as ones, it's called a Lord Celestant on Dracoth - and it's a pretty good choice as a quasi unit. 3+ save rerolling ones. Fulminators - 2+ save rerolling ones vs all important pew pew. Varanguard don't even have 5+ wards against mortal wounds. Their actual shields are abysmal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevewren Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 This is such a depressing thread! I blame @Nico!!! @ADDriot how many tournaments/events have you played in/won? If the answer is loads then you can make them work, in a similar way Martin Morrin has on the UK scene. He hasn't won events with them, but he has placed and been on top tables at most events. If, however, you are new to the tournament/matched play arena then you should still play them if you want to and find out how they perform. I ran them at South Coast this year and they were absolutely stand out in a number of games, but were let down by the rest of my army selection which really didn't support them or play to their strengths. My biggest fear with matched play was this categorisation of models being subpar/overcosted or whatever, and these kind of threads sucking the fun out of the game. help the OP out - give him some suggestions about how they can be used well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevewren Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 7 hours ago, Nico said: Take Little Archaon and make them Slaanesh and use both command abilities from the Lord on foot and the Lord on the Derpy Snake that shatters into a billion pieces when you drop it. Give them Fellspears. Possibly use the Overlords of Chaos formation so you know when you're going to get a double turn. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADDriot Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 This is such a depressing thread! I blame @Nico!!! @ADDriot how many tournaments/events have you played in/won? If the answer is loads then you can make them work, in a similar way Martin Morrin has on the UK scene. He hasn't won events with them, but he has placed and been on top tables at most events. If, however, you are new to the tournament/matched play arena then you should still play them if you want to and find out how they perform. I ran them at South Coast this year and they were absolutely stand out in a number of games, but were let down by the rest of my army selection which really didn't support them or play to their strengths. My biggest fear with matched play was this categorisation of models being subpar/overcosted or whatever, and these kind of threads sucking the fun out of the game. help the OP out - give him some suggestions about how they can be used well. Hi mate. Thanks for the great post. To be honest, when I say matched play I just mean games played with points. I'm not a tournament/competitive gamer and play mostly for fluff with a mostly great group of gamers. If Varanguard aren't a total bust, then I'm happy. I'd just like to know if its possible to play them in a points based list and have them live up to the fluff. As you say, the general negative buzz about them and my curiosity about it led me to make this thread and it has put me off of using them a bit. Nothing worse that spending hours on building/painting some centrepiece models only for them to turn out to be useless in game! Any tips on using them with either version of Archaon and Khorne Bloodbound would be greatly appreciated! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Quote Posted 6 minutes ago · Report post 7 hours ago, Nico said: Take Little Archaon and make them Slaanesh and use both command abilities from the Lord on foot and the Lord on the Derpy Snake that shatters into a billion pieces when you drop it. Give them Fellspears. Possibly use the Overlords of Chaos formation so you know when you're going to get a double turn. Thank you! It's good as such, but it's really rock paper scissors. Against a gunline behind a bunker, the Gaunt Summoner will last 9 minutes, then the pew pew will start knocking out the Varanguard - they aren't Fulminators. I have 12 of these (converted flying disks being pulled by Hormagaunts - long story, but have never used them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Quote Nothing worse that spending hours on building/painting some centrepiece models only for them to turn out to be useless in game! This should be printed on the box of The Glottkin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Hey, It's a real shame, but @Nico is entirely correct. Varanguard are unfortunately just flat out overpointed in the General's Handbook. In my opinion more glaringly so than any other unit. Sure, they can work in an Everchosen list with Archaon (thanks to the plethora of sweet buffs available), but even still are costly. I think the issue comes from the GH points being based on an older version of the SCGT points. When Varanguard came out the were costed at 6 for 1 model, this translates into 120 GH points, so 360 for 3. However this was quickly deemed to be too expensive and they dropped to 5 and finally 4, per model. If this final (and IMO most balanced) cost had been directly ported into the GH, we'd be looking at a much more reasonable 240 points for 3. Essentially there was a 50% increase in their points cost from the end of SCGT to GH. Also the difference in going from units of 1+ to 3+ should not be understated. That's huge. Saying Varanguard are on par with Dracothian Guard for the points is unfortunately just wrong. Pointed better this wouldn't and shouldn't need to be the case. Varanguard are phenomenal models and I'd love to see more on the table!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnelian Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Guys don't forget to feed this back to GW for when they update their points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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