Baron_Bathory Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Hey all, First post here, looks like an amazing community. I Had no idea a competitive AoS forum was out there, barring of course reddit, and who really wants to go there Anyhow, my buddies and I don't really do all the crazy scenarios in the Gen's handbook, mostly just battle line straight warfare. We're currently playing 2K. I've always been crazy about black orcs of any kind, I'm ecstatic that they have their own book now. Trying to make a super competitive list to make my friends cry. My group currently contains a vamp player, tomb kings player, and WoC: Slannesh player. I'm totally not opposed to playing general Destruction, but I only have models from the orcs & goblins currently. I can grab ogre units if its optimal, my only requirement is that an Ironjaw MUST lead the army, be it Gordrakk or anyone else. Any1 have suggestions? Is Gordrakk worth his points? Should I be using trolls? Are pure Ironjawz better than a destro army? Noobish side question, does an Ironjaw allegiance army need to be completely Ironjawz? Thank you in advance for any and all help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastbear Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I'm playing ironjawz and bonesplitterz using the op arrow boyz with kunnin'rukk battalion black orcs with shield and Brutes. A megaboss could easily lead that army, gordrakk is too expensive I think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsmith Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Howdy! There are strong ways to play mixed destruction, though ironjawz are very tough. Your friends don't sound like their lists are any of the really strong things right now so you probably wouldn't need to power game it. Yes, if you want to use ironjawz as battleline, if youre playing points, then you need every unit to have keyword ironjawz. We have a big thread in this sub forum actually on competitve ironjawz where you can find some fantastic lists. Ill key in @Chris Tomlin who's probably the most experienced ironjawz boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Biscuit Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 The primary issue I would find with mixed lists is that, with the exception for Gordark, none of the heroic choices can offer any synergies out of their ironjaw alliance. Gorkdark himself is also somewhat difficult to field as his command ability only triggers once and he cannot benefit from special item rules (because of his axes.) So Ironjaws don't necessarily make good leaders; they could care less what dem rabble 'r doin'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LortOlle Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 If you want Ironjawz then go pure ironjawz. Adding anything out of faction will force you to pay 300+ points in "battleline tax" as all your ironjawz units will no longer be battleline. A mangler squig, some bonesplitter arrow boys or a thundertusk for some mortal wound shooting are great additions to an ironjawz army but they are not worth the additional 300 points. If you want to mix you should make use of that battleline tax and do something with it. This could be to get moon grots as battle line and use fanatics as charge breakers or use savage orcs as battle line and make a kunnin rukk with 30 arrow boys etc. This will reduce the amount of ironjaw models but a megaboss on foot with three units of brutes and a warchanter or two will make a hard hitting part of your army with a useful command ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron_Bathory Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 Really appreciate the replies gents! Thanks a bunch! So do we have a definitive answer on what the more viable smash-face army is between Destro and Ironjawz? Do we have a basic outlook on what that list currently looks like? I've read through the competitive ironjawz thread, great info there but there doesn't seem to be much of a consensus. Everyone seems to be going their own way. I'm also seeing people putting command abilities and magic items from the destro allegiance in their ironjawz army. Is this legal? As far as I knew Ironjaw allegiance armies have the shaft for command abilities, battle trait, and magic items until we get an update. Thanks again for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsmith Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I wouldn't say either are better than the other. If you want mixed, ironjaws with a kunnin ruk is very strong. The arra boyz are battleline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 In the FAQ it states you can take Alliance abilities in an allegiance army, hence you can take the Destruction Allegiance Abilities, Command Traits and Artifacts. Things you need to look out for in playing Ironjawz is Mortal Wounds and being chaffed up. You rely on melee, so anything that blocks charges can be a bad time for you where you can potentially get caught up in prolonged combats when you need to get to objectives. However if you are here to smash face, you are in the right place Gordrakk: Too high of a cost Mawkrusha: Too high of a cost, though preferred to Gordrakk because it can take Artifacts/Abilities. Give it Talisman of Protection Megaboss: The Bees Knees, awesome synergy, can smash face and take a hit. Take Ravager and Battle Brew Warchanter: The Bees Knees, awesome synergy, take multiple. If you have an artifact, Battle Brew Weirdnob: Not for competitive play, too expensive and way too random to rely on. Brutes: The workhorse of your army, hit like a truck and can take a hit but vulnerable to battleshock. Throw them at Monsters and watch as you delete them off the table. Ardboyz: They get the work done in objective based competitive play. +2 to charge from Musician and +2 Bravery from the banner is great and can lead to first turn charges with a unit that will stick around until the Brutes/Megaboss get there to dole out the damage. If you and your friends are just playing 'smash face', then don't bother with Ardboyz because they do not smash very much face. More Brutes is More Better Gore-gruntaz: These are great for speed and tanking. Put a Warchanter buff on them when you can to up their potential damage Ironfist Battalion: The Default, because an extra d6 of movement is great. Other Battalions: Not many bother with them, the Ironfist is so under costed and performs so well. Some people toy with the Weirdfist, but again you are relying on a lot of random that deals mortal wounds to your own units. You need to be in range of a lot of models, which limits your board presence in a model light army and it's so easy to snipe the Weirdnob that it's like flushing the points down the toilet. Command traits: Nothing Left Standing: Good vs Sylvaneth Might is Right: See Battle Brew Wild Fury: See Battle Brew Bellowing Tyrant: See Warchanter Big and Brutish: You've already got 7 wounds with potential to get more Ravager: Must Take, add 2 to dice rolls for Rampaging Destroyers Artifacts: Meteoric Hammerblade: Personally untested, but might be good on a Mawkrusha Talisman of Protection: Good to take on an expensive Mawkrusha that will be a high priority target Gem of Seeing: See Warchanter Blade of Vituperation: Reroll one failed wound per enemy hero in 12" See Battle Brew Collar of Domination: See Battle Brew Battle Brew: +1 to Hit and Wound. That's all you need. A Megaboss hitting and wounding on 2's with 6 attacks on the Choppa with -1 rend and 2 damage is going to mutilate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsmith Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I feel like that needs to be a sticky in Destruction sub forum @Dez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Hey @Baron_Bathory, Welcome to our corner of TGA, thanks for joining us here! Good first post by yourself as you have set out your stall well and let us know exactly what you're after, which is helpful. Thanks to @Soulsmith for tagging me in as unfortunately I haven't been getting the time to look in on every topic and spam the sub forum of late! That said, @Dez has provided you with a pretty solid response there that does cover a lot of ground. There's not much there I don't agree with so would put my "+1" on that. As @Soulsmith said, I have played a lot of tournament games with pure Ironjawz, however these have all been under the General's Handbook where there is a large consideration to objectives and the such as opposed to just lining up and fighting each other. Fortunately for you, I do suspect that Ironjawz might do pretty well in games like this. One of the biggest negatives cited for Ironjawz is their alleged one dimensional play style; consisting of pushing the army forwards and smashing stuff up. For the kind of games you are looking to play, this can only be a positive!! A couple of people have already mentioned that Gordrakk is too expensive, I would also concur with this. The regular Cabbage however is a worth a look in this style of play as it can be very destructive and will be a focal point for your opponent. Just be careful you don't get over keen with it as it will get bogged down and die. Whilst the Talisman is probably my preferred artefact for the Cabbage, I have had some good results with putting Battle Brew on him as well, note that it works on the monsters ranged and combat attacks. When it comes to units, I would focus almost predominately on Brutes as they do hit the hardest by far, though I would be concerned by diminishing returns by multiple units due to alternating combat order and lack of battleshock immunity. You'll definitely want a couple of Warchanters in there, they are golden. Ironfist is the only battalion worth looking at for your purposes. It don't see Gore-gruntas offering much, though there may be some mileage in a unit of 20 Ardboyz. The Weirdnob is unfortunately too costly to be worthwhile. If he was guaranteed to get off Mystic Shield every turn then maybe, but he's not! Ironjawz definitely work best as a pure faction as before you can add any power units from elsewhere in the Grand Alliance you need to take a 300+ point tax on generic battleline. That said, if you are open to the Grand Alliance as a whole, I do think Beastclaw Raiders would be insanely powerful in the kind of games you are playing where model count is not required for objectives. Spamming a bunch of Frostlords on Stonehorns would be disgusting to face in a pure fight. Just some initial thoughts for now, hopefully it'll give you some food for thought. As I said, you can't go far wrong with @Dez's post. Perhaps post up a list so we can see where you're at now and we can advise further Cheers, Chris Oh, @Soulsmith - I keep meaning to speak with @Ben to see if I can get permissions to sticky posts in this forum as I would like to have some easy access info permanently at the top of the forum for all new Megabosses. We've created quite the resource here already I reckon!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Gordrakk is expensive but is a high risk high reward kinda guy. If you are facing Nagash or his mortarchs, archaon, allarielle & drycha on a regular basis take him as if you play it right and charge then first you will destroy them, if they charge you if you survive you will still smash them. He is magnitudes better than the normal mawcrusha boss because of his 2+ to hit on his weapons but he is a fire magnet so you need to play to that and there will be games you lose because he is neutered before he gets a steam on. Thay said I've had him kill 4 morghasts and Morris engine charge manfred (when gordrakk only had 1 wound left) and kill the whole lot of em. Been charges by archaon survived and lopped his sorry head off too. Also shot dead turn one by judicators so it's not always a good thing :-) also when against armies that have lots of bodies Warchanters with meteoric hammer blades are very useful as they sneak about with the main force and if positioned well can get in and become quite deadly. If your using a cabbage then Ironfist is a must have so that's 5 units your aiming for and I'd say 2-3 should be ardboyz or goregruntas rest brutes 2 warchanters and either a foot boss or if your cabbage is the big fist of Gork kind then just him and 2 warchanters. if your not going big cabbage and instead relying on weight if numbers it will be 1 ironfist and 1 other formation (weirdfist, gorefist or brute fist) this will give you around 8-9 unit picks (10 boys, 5 brutes or 3 goregruntas is a pick) footboss, 2 chanters and room for weirdnob and formations. ibdomt have the models for this route yet but think it will prove stronger under scenario play personally waaaaargh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 Nice post Kieran, good to have some differing opinions in the mix. Couple of thing... 1 hour ago, Sangfroid said: Warchanters with meteoric hammer blades are very useful as they sneak about with the main force and if positioned well can get in and become quite deadly. Nice. really nice. I can honestly say I have never even considered this but it is genuinely interesting. I ran the Maw-krusha with the Hammerblade in early GH games and never once wanted to use it, so I won't get over excited by this prospect, but yeh...interesting. The list I am planning on running predominately this weekend at Clash has 3 Artefacts (picked each game) and the characters will be Krunk, Ardnob and 2 Warchanters...so definitely gives me the option to try this out. I think I will, providing I don't get drunk and forget! 1 hour ago, Sangfroid said: if your not going big cabbage and instead relying on weight if numbers it will be 1 ironfist and 1 other formation (weirdfist, gorefist or brute fist) this will give you around 8-9 unit picks (10 boys, 5 brutes or 3 goregruntas is a pick) footboss, 2 chanters and room for weirdnob and formations. Yeh this is what I'm going with. I'm gonna go double Ironfist though, I just think it's flat out better than the rest (that and I don't run the Shaman or 3 units of Gruntas). 900th post...I should probably do more work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsmith Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 @Chris Tomlin A sticky of posts would be great, I am deviating into straight ironjawz for now, and it's been super useful using everyones experience and ideas. Just got to test it all out against a regular guy who runs treelord heavy sylvaneth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Soulsmith said: @Chris Tomlin A sticky of posts would be great, I am deviating into straight ironjawz for now, and it's been super useful using everyones experience and ideas. Just got to test it all out against a regular guy who runs treelord heavy sylvaneth. Be sure to let us know how you do...I'm confident you'll find that kind of build a pretty easy match up providing your list is sensible tbh - just remember to pack a couple of Warchanters to counter the Treelords hit debuffs. I'm hoping to get another game in vs @Forestreveries latest Sylvaneth monster mash list soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangfroid Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 @Chris Tomlin I agree though I envisaged personally a Ironfist with 30 Ardboyz 3 goregruntas then a brute fist with 10 brutes and 2x5 Megaboss, 2 chanters and then either BoBB or weirdnob (so 1980 or 2000pts) my thinking was the Ironfist dashes forward to hold and harass the enemy and the brutes move at the same speed as the characters to hit home turn 2/3 when they can make use of the mortal wounds and also keep the boss and characters safe. It's just theory at the moment as I need to get 10 more brutes to try it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 4 minutes ago, Sangfroid said: @Chris Tomlin I agree though I envisaged personally a Ironfist with 30 Ardboyz 3 goregruntas then a brute fist with 10 brutes and 2x5 Megaboss, 2 chanters and then either BoBB or weirdnob (so 1980 or 2000pts) my thinking was the Ironfist dashes forward to hold and harass the enemy and the brutes move at the same speed as the characters to hit home turn 2/3 when they can make use of the mortal wounds and also keep the boss and characters safe. It's just theory at the moment as I need to get 10 more brutes to try it The Brutefist is something I'd been mulling over too. It can also be considered extra movement or a reroll to charge, as it happens in the hero phase. It's not bad, and if it was closer in points to the Ironfist it would be considered more I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Biscuit Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Dez said: The Brutefist is something I'd been mulling over too. It can also be considered extra movement or a reroll to charge, as it happens in the hero phase. It's not bad, and if it was closer in points to the Ironfist it would be considered more I'm sure. Aye, in theory it is worth it since mortal wounds occur in a easy enough package and helps make small brute packs worth it; two brute packs slamming into a single hard unit suddenly sounds like an investment since on average that unit will be saddled with 4 mortal wounds, which will take a 2/4 models out of most units. Having two charge phases is also fairly useful, admit of limited use as one happens before movement. Issue I'm not entirely sure whether it's worth 80 just to deal 1d3 wounds on a charge. I mean that might work out as less then 1 mortal wound for game, as apposed to a number of extra D6 movement. I mean I imagine it would be incredible late game when the surviving units starts clashing with whatever is left and wiping out potential stragglers or that early game clash. Just Brutes are fairly fickle units as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LortOlle Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 On 2016-10-25 at 9:19 PM, Soulsmith said: I wouldn't say either are better than the other. If you want mixed, ironjaws with a kunnin ruk is very strong. The arra boyz are battleline. Sadly not true. The savage orruks are battleline but the arrowboys are not. The combo is strong but you need to take 30 savage orruks as well as a block of arrowboys (and a big boss) for the battalion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulsmith Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 2 hours ago, LortOlle said: Sadly not true. The savage orruks are battleline but the arrowboys are not. The combo is strong but you need to take 30 savage orruks as well as a block of arrowboys (and a big boss) for the battalion. I had no idea they were even separate warscrolls, thanks for the headsup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 14 hours ago, Lord Biscuit said: Aye, in theory it is worth it since mortal wounds occur in a easy enough package and helps make small brute packs worth it; two brute packs slamming into a single hard unit suddenly sounds like an investment since on average that unit will be saddled with 4 mortal wounds, which will take a 2/4 models out of most units. Having two charge phases is also fairly useful, admit of limited use as one happens before movement. Hhhmm...I dunno, there is definitely something to the Brutefist and I would also like to try it out. However an MSU approach with Brutes does concern me somewhat. Whilst maxing out on Bosses with their Klaws and Smashas is great (he puts out soooo much hurt as we all know), the spread of battleshock bothers me as does alternating combat order. A flip side is this could tempt me to buy two more boxes of Brutes so I could run another 2x 5 with Choppas!! Worth some experimentation though. It's too easy to just default to the Ironfist (I'm literally more guilty than anyone here!), but we are gonna need to test the others in time just to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Yeah I'm guilty of all Ironfist all the time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 2 minutes ago, Dez said: Yeah I'm guilty of all Ironfist all the time too. It is the best option rulewise and is probably a little undercosted, compared to most of the rest which swing the other way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dez Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Agreed! Ironfist needs a points bump, the rest need a reduction at the very least. Probably a bit of tweaking too. I was thinking about Gore-gruntaz, would you find them more valuable if they either: Ditched the 8" charge restriction to do d3 damage and put it in line with Boar boyz Replaced the rule that the unit does d3 mortal wounds on the charge Gave the unit the ability to take special weapons, like the Gore-choppa Gave Ironjawz Heroes Gore-grunta mounts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 46 minutes ago, Dez said: Agreed! Ironfist needs a points bump, the rest need a reduction at the very least. Probably a bit of tweaking too. I was thinking about Gore-gruntaz, would you find them more valuable if they either: Ditched the 8" charge restriction to do d3 damage and put it in line with Boar boyz Replaced the rule that the unit does d3 mortal wounds on the charge Gave the unit the ability to take special weapons, like the Gore-choppa Gave Ironjawz Heroes Gore-grunta mounts In a word; yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baron_Bathory Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 WOW! WOW! WOW! WOW! I totally didn't expect all this.. thank you guys so much for all the info!!!!! Trying to like every post but it won't let me. @Dez amazing write up on the units! @Chris Tomlin thank you as well for the warm welcome and amazing info! Ok so going pure ironjaws without any "cabbage" (LOL!) is seeing a HUGE surge in available points. So what I'm sort of seeing as a good list is as follows: Heroes - 300 Megaboss (General) - 140 - Ravager - Battle Brew Warchanter - 80 Warchanter - 80 Core Units - 1620 10 Ardboyz - 180 10 Ardboys - 180 10 Ardboyz - 180 5 Brutes - 180 5 Brutes - 180 5 Brutes - 180 3 Gores - 180 3 Gores - 180 3 Gores - 180Batallion Bonus - 60 Ironfist - 60 This takes us to 1980. Is this tough enough? Should I drop some of these units in favor of another? How should I equip the ardboyz and the brutes? Thanks again for all your support guys. You're awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.