Percivael Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I've been thinking about using a Blitzkreig like strategy with a 2000 pt Pestilens army recently. And then I read on @James McPherson blog that he'd had some success using the Plague Furnace as cover for his Plague Monks. Blitzkrieg, as most of you will know, is a term coined in the 30s to describe the tactics of the German Army in which a combination of tanks and fast moving mechanised infantry, in concentrated strikes with air support, were able to quickly break through enemy lines. A similar (slower tactic) was used by the British Army in World War 1, when infantry squads could advance behind the cover of nigh on impenetrable tanks to take enemy trenches already softened up by heavy gun bombardment - Enter Clan Pestilens! Instead of gun bombardment we have Plagueclaw bombardment, and instead of tanks we have Plague Furnaces and this list makes use of 3 (count 'em!) 3 of them! So your Foulrain Congregation barrage softens up the enemy lines whilst your monks advance behind the Plague Furnaces, protected from the likes of those horrible Bone Splitterz and Judicator Arrows - perhaps even turning the Plague Furnaces on their side for a wider silhouette. When they all arrive unscathed (perfect world!) the Furnaces will impact followed by your monks, who will be buffed to the max by the priest prayers etc. Many monks will be immune to battle shock due to crowns of conquest. Its an auto win list!... well maybe not, but it could be a lot of fun! Leaders Plague Priest Leader/Behemoths Plague Furnace (General) - Crown of Conquest Plague Furnace - Crown of Conquest Plague Furnace - Crown of Conquest Artillary Plague Claw Plague Claw Plague Claw Battleline 20 Plague Monks - Foetid Blades 20 Plague Monks - Foetid Blades 20 Plague Monks - Foetid Blades 20 Plague Monks - Foetid Blades Other Battalions Foulrain Congregation Congregation of Filth Total 2000 pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 It's an interesting idea, but the Blitzkrieg strategy only really succeeded in numerical superiority in each engagement, (mostly due to the Panzer II being a bit naff.) The idea of vehicles as cover has merit, but then half the armies in this game have meaningless ranged ability, and half of the other half have indirect fire weaponry to shoot your Plague Monks. It'd be a nasty surprise for one game, but then your opponent would adapt...much as the Allies did after France, really. Fast-moving armies will outmaneuver and flank it, and a lot of armies will just be pleased you've decided to move forward and make charging you easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivael Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 10 minutes ago, CoffeeGrunt said: It's an interesting idea, but the Blitzkrieg strategy only really succeeded in numerical superiority in each engagement, (mostly due to the Panzer II being a bit naff.) The idea of vehicles as cover has merit, but then half the armies in this game have meaningless ranged ability, and half of the other half have indirect fire weaponry to shoot your Plague Monks. It'd be a nasty surprise for one game, but then your opponent would adapt...much as the Allies did after France, really. Fast-moving armies will outmaneuver and flank it, and a lot of armies will just be pleased you've decided to move forward and make charging you easier. Yeah, I wish games would just play out like the cartoon that plays out inside my head! Perhaps one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undead4Life Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Well I'm not certain how this list would work or the strategy would perform in AoS in general, but I can attest to the fact that it doesn't work in 40k, which actually has tanks and mech infantry and air support. The issue with it is the scale of the game we're playing; the battlefield is too crowded and it's too easy to concentrate force without concern of being out of position for other advancements. If you're coming at me in a single, big formation, you can bet that I'm feeding you a tarpit and flanking with anything faster than 5" move. I think that the AoS and 40k equivalents of blitzkreig are things like deep strike; Space Marine drop pods, Stormcast teleporting, Skaven burrowing, summoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivael Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 @Undead4Life yeah, perhaps it was my fault for using the word Blitzkrieg in a frivolous way. Behind the fun comparison I was just making a point about the use of large models such as the Plague Furnace, as a peice of mobile scenery that can be used to block line of sight to the Plague monks and thus offer them some mobile protection as they advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undead4Life Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Well in that sense, I think it could be pretty viable! I have actually been toying with the idea in various ways but never got anywhere with it. Perhaps my unfamiliarity with Skaven helped me overlook the PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 If I did pestilens I would look more to the USSR for tactics. 160 rats / thousand soldiers and some furnances with the crown / commissars to make them hold. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent of Chaos Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I think its a really fun sounding list! You may have to keep a unit of plague monks back to guard the plague claws as I would be sending my speedy units around the flanks to take those out ASAP. If the plague claws can do enough damage then when your opponent eventually surrounds you/meets you head on in combat you would hopefully come out on top (with that unit of monks guarding the catapults to come up in reserve if needed). I think a really important element of the blitzkrieg was the speed at which the assault happened. I don't think your list is capable of delivering a swift punch; more like a sustained bombardment as slow moving tanks move up the battlefield with troops in tow to deliver the killing blow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James McPherson Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Its pretty similar to my list, but what you will find is not everywhere will let you spam multiple items of the same type. You will get tournaments house ruling it outlawed and casual games where opponents refuse to let you do it. So that's something to be weary of, your whole list will fall down then. Your also not considering Line of Sight, in AOS you can see through the Furnace to whats behind it through the cracks to shoot it, so unless you have a house rule to say 50% cover equates to no LOS then your monks cant advance behind it, because they will still get shot. Also it only moves 4 inches, which goes down to 2 or 3 pretty quickly as it takes damage and your monks move 6, so why would you want to waste their higher movement slowly plodding across a 48" table. I was only using it as cover on my blog because of a house rule in a tournament saying that was legal to do so. So far out of the many games I've played, I've only ever used that tactic once. It was a one off thing. Charge blocker/re-director yes, cover no. Its other main uses I have for it is sitting one or two next to my catapults to spam 'Bless with Filth' and put it on each Plagueclaw, which gives them re-rolls to wound, or I surround it with monks, and give it a high movement and use it as a distraction/charge blocker/anvil type unit to hold something in place until I can charge it. The 15" move you can give it by surrounding it with 33 monks comes in handy as you can get a turn 1 charge off and surprise people. It just does zero damage, because it's not really a tank or a chariot, its more of a warshrine. Its best use is probably in a group of 30 monks advancing accross the table so that people shoot at it instead of your monks, as a fire magnet/attention grabber. Giving them re-rolls to wound with 'Bless with Filth' or the extra pile in and attack on the other prayer. I've written a Pestilens tactica thread up on here so you are welcome to add to it and post your findings. I found it hard enough painting and building 2 Plague Furnaces, so I can only imagine how much pain it's going to be making three up! The main thing I will say is I see you badly missing the magic and the fast movement of a Verminlord Corruptor. If you want to make your furnaces really resilient use a Plaguesmog formation which gives -1 to hit with shooting attacks, and put the Talisman on it, otherwise with a 4+ save and no Mystic Shield its going to die in one round of combat/shooting if you are charging it headlong into the enemy. The other formation that would be good is the 2x Congregation of Filth and the Virulent Procession, that way you can use 2x Furnaces, all your monks get re-rolls to charge and a 6+ ward save, and your Verminlord Corruptor is suddenly unkillable. The trouble with the Virulent Procession is it's unuseable at 2k with a Foulrain as you run out of points, so I would either drop a Plagueclaw and the Foulrain and save 280pts and take only 2 PClaws and the Virulent Procession , or drop the 3rd Furnace and take a Verminlrd Corruptor. The thing is with the plagueclaws and foulrain is it's such a big points investment, you have to be able to outdeploy your opponent by making less drops, so that you get the first turn priority and can make him go first, otherwise you waste a whole turn of shooting because he will deploy out of range of all your catapults. So without having a small number of drops, you risk a pretty good chance of wasting 720pts. My list is 3 drops, 2 formations and 1 Corruptor. You might get the odd opponent with less drops but in general that's a pretty strong argument for getting 1st turn off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James McPherson Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 also the biggest reason to take a foulrain is to dictate play and force them to come to you. That way you can get your charges off without having to run across the table. If you split your two forces up the catapults will just get picked off. And plaguemonks aren't really a sit around and protect kind of unit, they are only good when they are out there getting charges off and in combat. They don't have a save but they do have a splashback roll if you read the rules for the icon of pestilence or whatever it's called. So you want them dying in combat and not to shooting attacks as they try to move up the table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivael Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 Spot on analysis as always @James McPherson some great tactics there. But I don't think anyone could argue that their ranged troops can see through, let alone shoot through, the small gaps of a Plague Furnace so I would say that they do provide cover even without the 50% house rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozokus Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Nice: .. Btw, Blitzkrieg is a bad interpretation. It was never some clever combinaisons of tanks, plane, battlewagon and so on... It as a theory (that could only work in the WW2 time) that every country was sat on 3 pillars : Army, Leaders and Industry. And if you strike at least two of them the third would automaticaly fall and ensure victory. Some kind of go-for-the-throat strategy. For example, France was beaten because the army was broken as the industry so the leaders had to surrender. In Russia, even if the army was broken, the industry was saved by beeing entirely relocated(!). When the objective went to take down the leadership (Stalingrad) The only solution was to keep the city at all costs because it would have meant the end of the war for Russia. Sorry for the digression, let's get back to Skavens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James McPherson Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Well that's not how we played it at Warlords at Warhammer World which so far is probably a pretty good benchmark for how AOS should be played...as it was the first ever official matched play tournament organised by GW. I emailed them these photos below I've uploaded shortly before the tournament and asked John Bracken who is head of events at WHW if this would count as cover, and the answer was , if you can see any part of the model, no matter how small, you can shoot it. You may say the gaps on the plague furnace are quite small but they are actually quite large and you can easily see models through there. Especially a plague monk which is a very small mini. Some of the gaps are the same size as a plague monk, so at some angles you would find it hard to argue that more than 50% of a monk is even hidden. A Plagueclaw or Verminlord Corruptor maybe so as they are larger models, but certainly not every single occasion a Plaguemonk, and if you can see one, you can shoot at the whole unit. You could only have to see a fingernail and it would be enough to shoot it still. That is how the rules are written, that's how the game is played. Obviously you could agree in your group, but it's a big investment to make an entire army based around a rule which you are expecting to be able to bend to suit your own needs/benefit. Just buy a set of realmgates, and take them to any game you play, that way you have instant teleportation access to anywhere on the battlefield. Even better than a pair of Realmgates take Sayl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James McPherson Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I mean try it , by all means, but if it was me and somebody did that and designed their entire army around that and expected me to 'bend' the rules so they could then I wouldn't really want to play them. Not unless they let me bend the rules for my army too, like re-rolling 1's for the whole game or taking one less battleline slot that I had to. Or maybe re-rolling failed charges. There isn't much LOS blocking terrain in AOS, things like the Numulus Occulum and Ophidian Arch suddenly become very valuable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 As far as replicating the effect, part of the problem the French had was overcommitting to the incomplete Maginot Line, and the other part was the lack of radio for disseminating orders. So the best way to replicate it would be to have your opponent deploy across the middle aside from a 12" gap, then have them have to wait a turn between telling a unit what to do, and that unit doing it. For extra points, have an allied force of piddly size turn up to help, then conduct a fighting retreat and flee across the sea to represent the British. Sadly it sounds like Plague Furnaces don't have the speed you'll need for this. I think the only way you can really make this work is with something that hits like a sledgehammer and moves like a cheetah. Not sure what options Chaos has available for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James McPherson Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Sayl + 30 Plaguemonks w/ woe staves (gives them an 18" move) on the charge with 'Gouge Tear their Eyes' , 6 attacks each, 180 attacks in total, as part of a Pestilent Clawpack, when you rolls 6's to wound they do -1 rend and dbl damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivael Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 Yep, you've convinced me @James McPherson I'm defecting to Nurgle Rotbringers! (-; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James McPherson Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Rotbringers are even worse, they all move 4". I don't play Rotbringers. I'm saying play Pestilens, but learn what their weaknesses are and learn to bring in other things to cover their shortcomings. Epidemius, Sayl, Plague Drones are a good start, and marauders with Nurgle allegiance as battleline. You can still win games with an all Pestilens force, it's just harder! I've maybe won about 40/60 of my games I reckon. Most of my losses have come in the movement phase/through movement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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