What's the most effective all comers Stormcast Eternals formation.

[Beardyface]

After a year of tournaments starting with SCGT (placing 87th in my first event) and finishing with Warlords (placing 6th and achieving the best game results as an Order general) I think I've got a good handle on what makes the Stormcast tick. I was naive at the beginning relying on profiles to pull me through like a blunt instrument. Having played well in excess of 100 games though I'm convinced they need a great deal of subtlety to play well. 

Hammer Strike (more rubber mallet)

This is how I started the year at SCGT. Generally teamed up with the banner to drop in the Prosecutors and get the Retributors nice and close. When I used it I went for two units of 5 Retributors. My problem was 5 rarely got the job done and the second unit always got mauled before it could dish out the pain. Looking back there were many flaws with my early list.

To make this list work I think you probably need something like the following unashamed punch to the face:

Knight Azyros

Knight Venator

Knight Vexillor

3 Prosecutors with Jav

2 X 10 Retributors

3 X 5 Judicators

I'd look to hit the best unit and something else that lacks bite to make the most of turn one drop. You can run the Prosecutors out turn one and then conga the Rets forward from the 6" deployment around the Prosecutors to get a huge range. The Vexillor can be used to redeploy a unit next turn and smash something else or if playing Chaos plant an Azyros bomb somewhere tasty. Shooting is there to break combos by character sniping.

Theory hammer though so onto my bread and butter.

Skyborne Slayers

The list that placed well at Warlords and 8th at the one day Alliance event was:

Celestant-Prime

Lord Celestant

Knight Venator

2 X Shield Liberators

3 X 5 Judicators

10 Protectors

5 Decimators

I play this list very aggressively.

Protectors always to the fore hunting monsters (they got a Stardrake, Glotkin and 2 Vampires on Zombie Dragons at Warlords) and using their ability to protect units from shooting. Decimators into hordes (one shot 20 Plaguebearers). Libs hug objectives and the Venator with Judicator back up hold deep objectives in my territory and then shoot the world off.

Sounds easy but placement is huge with this army. Mis- deploy and you lose. It's very unforgiving.

The Celestant-Prime is my trouble shooter. If I need combat punch he comes down turn 3-4 to delete a unit. If someone castles then he drops in turn one and rains comets from afar using his dice change ability to punish the worst offending heroes. He can easily do 10+ mortal wounds a turn if they're huddling for protection.

 

How else is everyone else getting on and what to you believe to be the pros and cons of the other Stormcast formations?

I hear lots about the Warrior Brotherhood but in my experience it lacks the outright punch or staying power (how good is no battleshock tests in Slayers).

[Dracothjay]

Good article buddy! I too religiously play the skyborne slayers. Reading your article, how do you use your list for objective play? 

i also run the celestant prime and venator, but i don't double up on protectors. Instead I run 2 fulminators and 3 prosecutors and they always either capture objectives or reinforce where needed.

ive also though of using the slayers as my aggressive strike force and using 4 fulminators and LCoD as another obj capturing unit and/or another hammer to the face unit.

[Beardyface]

I've found that without doubling up on the protectors you lack that initial Lilly effect to rock your opponent. 10 always always kill their mark with supporting fire and make the opponent react to me. 

Depending on the scenario I tend to drop my force in the middle of all objectives. This gives the chance to reach out to all of them late game but the force supports each other in early to mid turns. I've never found that I lack speed to achieve the objectives doing this.

I've also found 3 units of Judicators invaluable. 2 units have dodgy phases with bad rolls. This very rarely happens with three. I always try to play the percentages and look for consistency of effect in what I'm trying to achieve.

[Dracothjay]

A lot of people disagree, but I love the celestant prime. Given, 360 points is a lot for something that comes into play turns 3-4, but when he comes he comes with fire and brimstone. I would rather take him over a stardrake 10/10. He always does what I want him too and eliminates any threat he's up against. I got mass love for the prime.

You feel the celestant prime is worth every point? I'm yet to find someone who said yes lol.

[Beardyface]

His huge utility makes him worth the points:

Speed, fly, great ranged attack, lowers bravery when lands, -3 rend, 3 damage, can change one dice each turn.

He is the classic glass hammer but he gives you options and options win you games!

[Aeonotakist]

I really like your way of playing Celestial Prime, exacty the same idea as I have cause it adds so much possibilities to Skyborn Slayer list. In a tournment that won't allow you to have two lists, you have to make your only list as dynamic as possible to avoid hard counters. I cannot imagine anyone expect a Celestial Prime can do so many different jobs at great efficiency.

I really think you spend time in researching the army (a lot of people consider Celestial Prime useless) and the 8th in Warlord is a fair reward you deserve.

 

IMO, there are several tactics in SE that I dont really see them roll out for enough times. But I really think they have potential.

1. Prosecutors with Jevelin list. Very agile and effective against army that cannot spread wide enough or too slow. I know there are a few lists getting in tournaments and get good result. But very few tactics are dived in this area.

2. Librators as the most effective melee battlion. They are really underpriced as 10P for 1W with 4+ reroll 1, and Prime with special weapon doing incredible damage. How they release their full potential? Maybe with Vanguard Wings + Lord Celestial hit buff, maybe with Realmgate Guardian battlion. But I really believe they can do much better than they are now.

3. Over priced Judicators. Most of the time we put them on because: a) we dont know how to use Librators. b) we need battleline units. Actually they are  not good enough compare with most ranged units in the game. Surprisingly how people stick to it. I believe if we can have a Librators/ Prosecutors focused list in the future, we will realize how unnecessary Judicator is in the game.

4. - hit combo. Very useful in 1000 games. Also SE got very high potential here with Frost Weapon Relic, Lord Relictors and Tempestors. I wonder whether we can use it as a surprise in 2000s?

5. The potential of Fulminators and Tempestors. I personally believe they are quite good due to their high MW output and dynamic ability (anti-range or - Hit). But almost no tactic around them yet.

6. SE's unique ability to effect enemy's pile-in. Quite a few units in SE have this kind ability. Also if we deep strike in a clever way we can easily attack from two different direction of enemy's large unit. However very few article is around this imprtant topic... Alot of times I see people use Skyborn to hit from the same side of a huge unit and let them counter attack with full power between your actions. Actually according to Pile in rules, there are a lot of ways to optimize deep strike performance if you can make clever moves.

 

Looking forwards to your opinion.

[Wraith01]

For newcomers the starter set. 

[Beardyface]

4 minutes ago, Aeonotakist said:

I really like your way of playing Celestial Prime, exacty the same idea as I have cause it adds so much possibilities to Skyborn Slayer list. In a tournment that won't allow you to have two lists, you have to make your only list as dynamic as possible to avoid hard counters. I cannot imagine anyone expect a Celestial Prime can do so many different jobs at great efficiency.

I really think you spend time in researching the army (a lot of people consider Celestial Prime useless) and the 8th in Warlord is a fair reward you deserve.

 

IMO, there are several tactics in SE that I dont really see them roll out for enough times. But I really think they have potential.

1. Prosecutors with Jevelin list. Very agile and effective against army that cannot spread wide enough or too slow. I know there are a few lists getting in tournaments and get good result. But very few tactics are dived in this area.

2. Librators as the most effective melee battlion. They are really underpriced as 10P for 1W with 4+ reroll 1, and Prime with special weapon doing incredible damage. How they release their full potential? Maybe with Vanguard Wings + Lord Celestial hit buff, maybe with Realmgate Guardian battlion. But I really believe they can do much better than they are now.

3. Over priced Judicators. Most of the time we put them on because: a) we dont know how to use Librators. b) we need battleline units. Actually they are  not good enough compare with most ranged units in the game. Surprisingly how people stick to it. I believe if we can have a Librators/ Prosecutors focused list in the future, we will realize how unnecessary Judicator is in the game.

4. - hit combo. Very useful in 1000 games. Also SE got very high potential here with Frost Weapon Relic, Lord Relictors and Tempestors. I wonder whether we can use it as a surprise in 2000s?

5. The potential of Fulminators and Tempestors. I personally believe they are quite good due to their high MW output and dynamic ability (anti-range or - Hit). But almost no tactic around them yet.

6. SE's unique ability to effect enemy's pile-in. Quite a few units in SE have this kind ability. Also if we deep strike in a clever way we can easily attack from two different direction of enemy's large unit. However very few article is around this imprtant topic... Alot of times I see people use Skyborn to hit from the same side of a huge unit and let them counter attack with full power between your actions. Actually according to Pile in rules, there are a lot of ways to optimize deep strike performance if you can make clever moves.

 

Looking forwards to your opinion.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. There are many lists that haven't been fully explored.

1. I saw this being used at Warlords by two people I think. It's a beautiful army on the table. Everything you say is bang on but it goes down hard if someone can get into it. Great idea but potentially too rock, paper, scissors to consistently place well at tournaments. I've painted 6 Prosecutors and the heroes and have vowed never to paint another. Think you need something like 27 for this list!!!

2. I used two lots of 10 Libs in Slayers to begin with but have since dropped it down to 5. They really lack killing power and threat range. They make good objective grabbers but fall apart in my experience if asked to do heavy lifting.

3. I strongly disagree here. They're outstanding battleline units due to their greater range than lots of other missile troops and can sit on objectives and still contribute. They're also outstanding at targeting characters, monsters etc to help out frontline troops.

4. I can see this in a defensive list but except for the Fulminators you can't guarantee it and relies on the enemy coming to you. Saying that defensive Stormcast won facehammer I believe but not sure on the list.

5. @Ben Johnson has run a 4 Fulminator, 4 Concussor list to great effect. Think he often has LCoD and Judicators support. Dracoth's scare me because they fall over to mortal wounds but I've just purchased some Fulminators so experimenting will start soon. Having to take two Tempestors is the biggest negative here. They were good when you could take one but I'd rather have the killing potential I think.

6. Incredibly solid tactic and something I use regularly to great success. Best way to hamstring any powerful unit is to paralyse it and pick it apart!

[Beardyface]

21 minutes ago, Wraith01 said:

For newcomers the starter set. 

Thunderstrike Brotherhood, which is the starter set, is a really solid core of troops to start learning what you like about the army and how to play them.

I don't think you'd ever see it used as a competitive Stormcast list though which is really what this threads about.

[Wraith01]

Okay

[Malakithe]

I'm more in favor of the Warrior Brotherhood. On paper it seems more flexible. Instead of a small 24" bubble that vastly shrinks due to staying 9" away i like the idea of slapping down anyone anywhere. The Azyros can come with it so drop him first then whatever you want, fly him away and do it more. Need some units to grab an objective away from the main fighting? Bam, Liberators and Judicators anywhere. And choosing your Paladins. 

The only issue is its larger to fill points wise. But that's the trade off right? Costs more but more flexible, more customized. For me I like the LC on foot and Azyros. Decimators and Retributors. 

My list I could toss in a unit of Concussors too.

[Aeonotakist]

10 hours ago, Beardyface said:

I agree with a lot of what you're saying here. There are many lists that haven't been fully explored.

1. I saw this being used at Warlords by two people I think. It's a beautiful army on the table. Everything you say is bang on but it goes down hard if someone can get into it. Great idea but potentially too rock, paper, scissors to consistently place well at tournaments. I've painted 6 Prosecutors and the heroes and have vowed never to paint another. Think you need something like 27 for this list!!!

2. I used two lots of 10 Libs in Slayers to begin with but have since dropped it down to 5. They really lack killing power and threat range. They make good objective grabbers but fall apart in my experience if asked to do heavy lifting.

3. I strongly disagree here. They're outstanding battleline units due to their greater range than lots of other missile troops and can sit on objectives and still contribute. They're also outstanding at targeting characters, monsters etc to help out frontline troops.

4. I can see this in a defensive list but except for the Fulminators you can't guarantee it and relies on the enemy coming to you. Saying that defensive Stormcast won facehammer I believe but not sure on the list.

5. @Ben Johnson has run a 4 Fulminator, 4 Concussor list to great effect. Think he often has LCoD and Judicators support. Dracoth's scare me because they fall over to mortal wounds but I've just purchased some Fulminators so experimenting will start soon. Having to take two Tempestors is the biggest negative here. They were good when you could take one but I'd rather have the killing potential I think.

6. Incredibly solid tactic and something I use regularly to great success. Best way to hamstring any powerful unit is to paralyse it and pick it apart!

Thank you for your feedback. In my region we mainly play 1000 games cause most of us dont have time to paint too much. The environment is so different that we experience MSU like Prosecutors extremely useful and 5 Librators can fight so good in isolated situation against some enemy HQ around 100pts. The 1000pts game is without too much synergy due to very few units and reletaively large maps, so units with solid profile will make better use.

 

I still see Judicators not good enough in damage output. So you think their main value is range? Is it because you will always 'waste' points in obtain target and Judicators can do something when sitting on target? Actually I have played several games with 30%~40% Judicators in my army, in those games my enemy was aggresively trying to wipe me out and I felt Judicators so effectiveless in real killing business. On paper their damage is almost same as a group of Prosecutor with Jevelin, also I feel the same in real battle.

 

One thinking from my side is actually very wild about Vanguard Wings. Imagine having this battlion with 50+ Librator in one unit and buff them to-hit using all methods Order army can find. Then throw this unit anywhere using the special ability Vanguard Wings have. It can reach very far and eve fit in enemy's formation due to it's free teleportation without any limitation. Then, due to the battlion rule 'When Librator roll a 6 on to-hit, its damage is changed to 2.' and tons of to-hit buffs, Librators can easily reach a 4+ to 2D or even 3+ to 2D against HQ/monster/elite troop. It can do dramatic damage as I have tested in 1000 games but only cost 500 on them and 340 on Prosecotors and Battlion. There is a nice meta in this battlion with Librators's special ability and the fact SE are strong at +hit. I think we can make a deepdive into it.

 

 

[Beardyface]

1 hour ago, Aeonotakist said:

Thank you for your feedback. In my region we mainly play 1000 games cause most of us dont have time to paint too much. The environment is so different that we experience MSU like Prosecutors extremely useful and 5 Librators can fight so good in isolated situation against some enemy HQ around 100pts. The 1000pts game is without too much synergy due to very few units and reletaively large maps, so units with solid profile will make better use.

I think this makes a big difference in how we view the troops. I completely agree that at 1000 points where it's unlikely you'll be using a formation that Prosecutors are a better bet. We play our 1000 points games on 4x4 tables which clips their wings somewhat as they need the space to stay out of trouble.

 

1 hour ago, Aeonotakist said:

I still see Judicators not good enough in damage output. So you think their main value is range? Is it because you will always 'waste' points in obtain target and Judicators can do something when sitting on target? Actually I have played several games with 30%~40% Judicators in my army, in those games my enemy was aggresively trying to wipe me out and I felt Judicators so effectiveless in real killing business. On paper their damage is almost same as a group of Prosecutor with Jevelin, also I feel the same in real battle.

Damage output is almost identical I think. I prefer the judicators because of the rend and Re-roll 1s against Chaos. This swings it for me. As they tend to sit out of the way 24'' range makes a big difference over the Prosecutors 18''. Adding in movement they're basically the same threat range but when you are sitting still that doesn't matter. Finally I'm always required to take Judicators in the formations I take so this removes the need for Prosecutors. 

 

1 hour ago, Aeonotakist said:

One thinking from my side is actually very wild about Vanguard Wings. Imagine having this battlion with 50+ Librator in one unit and buff them to-hit using all methods Order army can find. Then throw this unit anywhere using the special ability Vanguard Wings have. It can reach very far and eve fit in enemy's formation due to it's free teleportation without any limitation. Then, due to the battlion rule 'When Librator roll a 6 on to-hit, its damage is changed to 2.' and tons of to-hit buffs, Librators can easily reach a 4+ to 2D or even 3+ to 2D against HQ/monster/elite troop. It can do dramatic damage as I have tested in 1000 games but only cost 500 on them and 340 on Prosecotors and Battlion. There is a nice meta in this battlion with Librators's special ability and the fact SE are strong at +hit. I think we can make a deepdive into it.

 

 

You are limited to max of 20 Liberators in a unit under the GH. The other problem is the base size of Stormcast. You'll always struggle to get many into combat and with no rend or mortal wounds I find that little is ever achieved by Liberators. 400 points wound get me 10 Protectors and this is a way better choice in my opinion.

[Beardyface]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I'm more in favor of the Warrior Brotherhood. On paper it seems more flexible. Instead of a small 24" bubble that vastly shrinks due to staying 9" away i like the idea of slapping down anyone anywhere. The Azyros can come with it so drop him first then whatever you want, fly him away and do it more. Need some units to grab an objective away from the main fighting? Bam, Liberators and Judicators anywhere. And choosing your Paladins. 

The only issue is its larger to fill points wise. But that's the trade off right? Costs more but more flexible, more customized. For me I like the LC on foot and Azyros. Decimators and Retributors. 

My list I could toss in a unit of Concussors too.

Skyborne Slayers only has to drop 5'' away and with Reckless on the LC almost never fail a charge. The 24'' bubble is actually huge considering you only need one model in that range and can conga the rest out. Warrior Brotherhood requires the Azyros to be in the midst of the enemy army and he isn't surviving one turn of. Being there if the enemy know how the Brotherhood works. Then your stuck 9'' away. Being forced to take a unit of Prosecutors and 3 units of Liberators is also a handicap on your points. The Prosecutors speed isn't so nessessary when you're deep striking. 

I have 640 points to add after meeting the requirements of Skyborne Slayers including having boosted the Protectors to 10 models.

Finally the Skyborne Slayers are immune to bravery and die to a man. Warrior Brotherhood can drift away and it hurts every time a model runs. This happens surprisingly often if enemy can lower bravery.

[Malakithe]

I can see that. What else do you add to it? What's the big killy unit?

[Beardyface]

3 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

I can see that. What else do you add to it? What's the big killy unit?

My list is in the first post of this thread.

10 Protectors one-shot just about any monster. Never failed with Judicator support. That's pretty killy. 

15 Judicators in 3 units kills a lot. 

5 Decimators smash hordes.

Prime-Time trouble shooter tidies up at the end.

[Aeonotakist]

29 minutes ago, Beardyface said:

You are limited to max of 20 Liberators in a unit under the GH. The other problem is the base size of Stormcast. You'll always struggle to get many into combat and with no rend or mortal wounds I find that little is ever achieved by Liberators. 400 points wound get me 10 Protectors and this is a way better choice in my opinion.

Well i forgot this very basic rules, some strange idea in my mind is Battleline has no model limitation in one unit and we played like that for some times...

But actually I used a group of 20 Librator to hunt down an Alarielle in one turn with +3 hit modifier and Vanguard Wings specil rule... I culculated their average output can be around 15 against a HQ with 3+ save. 0 rend feels like annoying but actually -1 rend has similar effect on total output as +1 to-hit in most cases.

 

Their base size is reallt a problem. But it depends on whether you aloow models to stand on other's base or not. Dont know how Tourney deal with this.

 

[Malakithe]

Is the only source of mortal wounds from the Prime then?

[Beardyface]

10 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Is the only source of mortal wounds from the Prime then?

4 Starsoul Maces on Protectors

2 Starsoul Maces on Decimators

LC cloak

Prime

27 potential in a turn 

15-16 average

[Beardyface]

36 minutes ago, Aeonotakist said:

Well i forgot this very basic rules, some strange idea in my mind is Battleline has no model limitation in one unit and we played like that for some times...

But actually I used a group of 20 Librator to hunt down an Alarielle in one turn with +3 hit modifier and Vanguard Wings specil rule... I culculated their average output can be around 15 against a HQ with 3+ save. 0 rend feels like annoying but actually -1 rend has similar effect on total output as +1 to-hit in most cases.

 

Their base size is reallt a problem. But it depends on whether you aloow models to stand on other's base or not. Dont know how Tourney deal with this.

 

 I've never played standing on bases and wouldn't be allowed in a tournament. 

Unless your opponent left Alarielle in the middle of nowhere there is no way you should be able to surround Her with 20 models. Your general also needs to be within 9'' of a more at the start of their activation so if you're jumping across he's not going to keep up. 

I don't think in a competitive environment this would ever happen as cool as Liberators dragging her down is ?. 

If it was anything other than turn one shocked she didn't have mystical shield up for a 2+ save!

[Aeonotakist]

 

25 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Is the only source of mortal wounds from the Prime then?

Actually MW is not the only thing matters in AOS. Especially if you face some list with cheap units and can be buffed to 200 attacks with even poor profile they are still killy.

Protectors have very high damage per hit against monsters so even they have solid save, they can lost 1~6 wounds everytime they fail even once.

[Aeonotakist]

12 minutes ago, Beardyface said:

 I've never played standing on bases and wouldn't be allowed in a tournament. 

Unless your opponent left Alarielle in the middle of nowhere there is no way you should be able to surround Her with 20 models. Your general also needs to be within 9'' of a more at the start of their activation so if you're jumping across he's not going to keep up. 

I don't think in a competitive environment this would ever happen as cool as Liberators dragging her down is ?. 

If it was anything other than turn one shocked she didn't have mystical shield up for a 2+ save!

Yes that was turn one. I was playing a real Harginger Chamber with support of a lot of other models from friends. I put the Prosecutors 9' from his Queen and then deepstrike my Librators. Since Librator can be deployed in any shape, I didn't feel too hard to really surround her. I remembered I used 4 models to keep 5' within Prosecutors and kept the models continous. 6 models was just around the queen. After pile-in then I got 19 models fit by her side.

 

For the LC buff, I feel it's not really clear stated how the buff works. IMO it's when you use the ability, all units within 9' get +1 to-hit in Combat Phase until next Hero Phase. That means I can keep the buff fairly easily. Just cast it in Hero Phase on Librators and teleport Librators away in Movement Phase.

 

 

[Beardyface]

Yeah they're epic and shooting through them gives enemy shooting -1 to hit as well. 

Agree on the mortal wounds front. Useful for high saves but useful at sniping out high save characters. Judicators, LC and Prime's  can usually snap combos in horde armies.

[Beardyface]

2 minutes ago, Aeonotakist said:

For the LC buff, I feel it's not really clear stated how the buff works. IMO it's when you use the ability, all units within 9' get +1 to-hit in Combat Phase until next Hero Phase. That means I can keep the buff fairly easily. Just cast it in Hero Phase on Librators and teleport Librators away in Movement Phase. 

If you read the whole ability it is really clear. +1 to hit for this model and those within 9'' in the combat phase. It's an ongoing bubble that you need to remain within so he needs to be close.

[Aeonotakist]

30 minutes ago, Beardyface said:

If you read the whole ability it is really clear. +1 to hit for this model and those within 9'' in the combat phase. It's an ongoing bubble that you need to remain within so he needs to be close.

We had serious discussion about that. But I cannot really say this is the case. It could be they just want to enphasize that the +1 to-hit only apply in combat phase so no shooting benefit from that.

The 'combat phase' could be describing the 9' range effectiveness or describing the +1 to-hit effectiveness.  

Also the original wording is 'If this model ...uses his ability, until your next Hero Phase you can add one to the result of any hit rolls in the combat phase for this model and friendly Stormcast Eternity units within 9' of him.'

Seems like the combat phase only apply to +1 hit rolls. and the 9' is working together with 'use ability'.

 

Just imagine if you want to design some ability that wont effect shooting, won't you use the same term?