Wild theories about the future of BoC

[Augusto]

Okay, new tinfoil hat theory: what if BoC as we know them are complety gone (one of the rumors)

Morghur succeeds at corrupting the incarnates, maybe using all the chaos essence ( or magic stuff) that creates boc, idk.

So the way BoC survives (not in the way we know them), is in the form of corrupted incarnates (new monsters for chaos factions)

[Pizzaprez]

On 2/6/2024 at 4:16 PM, Baron Klatz said:

It’s probably nothing but the new store competition mats do seem to have the Dragon-Ogor art on them so at least there’s that olive branch delivered by Ghyranian dove maidens to the Beasty bois. 😄🕊️

Wouldn't it be quite the twist if, somehow, we lose Beasts but keep Dragon Ogors? Slaves don't currently have a "big centaur" and, outside Morghur, the lore for Dragon Ogors has actually been the consistent plot point that has made me feel like they're not going anywhere and will eventually have a stake in the plot. Outside of like, the fact that they're isolated sometimes they (iirc) dont seem to have the same sheer hatred of civilization that the rest of BoC does. In my head, they occupy a similar niche to the Mindstealers and Ogroids: species that chaos has permanently imprinted itself onto

However, they would occupy a similar tactical niche to Varanguard now that I'm really thinking about it.... but narratively I could 1000% see them (led by a new named Dragon Ogor Shaggoth character) bending a knee to Archaon to get a slice of the "invading Azyr" pie

[Gitzdee]

I like the idea that Morghur gets the new weird chaos things faction and the bull/goats defect to a new Drogrukh faction with Kragnos. Dont think it will happen, but it had potential. It will put a lot of BoC in rage mode though.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

The whole discussion about the dissapearance of BoC from AoS really reminds me of AoS1 and the 1st half of AoS2. Back then there was a lot of talk about Slaanesh getting squatted from AoS : it was "too adult, too dangerous for GW's image to have a god of decadence if they were trying to bring in young players", it was the only Chaos God without a BT, it hadn't received any mini since WFB, everyone saw its capture by the elf gods as the sign they were planning to get rid of him/her/them. Like 1st step "Slaanesh is captured", 2nd step "Wow Slaanesh is gone ! Too bad !". And it was also linking up to the Ynnari plotline at that time in 40k.

Anyways, guess who ended getting not one but two waves of minis in the 2nd half of AoS2 ?

This whole discussion about Beasts' squatting in AoS3 is just to me a repeat of the discussion of Slaanesh's squatting in AoS1. Different arguments, same tune and vibe. Beastmen have been around since the inception of Warhammer, do you really think they're going away now ? Here's what I think of "GW will squat BoC in AoS4" :

They've done plastic Sisters, brought back Genestealer Cults, brought back Squats, brought back the Old World with Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, they're bringing back Chorfs... GW is in an era of rebuilding stuff, not cutting stuff up.

[The Red King]

5 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

The whole discussion about the dissapearance of BoC from AoS really reminds me of AoS1 and the 1st half of AoS2. Back then there was a lot of talk about Slaanesh getting squatted from AoS : it was "too adult, too dangerous for GW's image to have a god of decadence if they were trying to bring in young players", it was the only Chaos God without a BT, it hadn't received any mini since WFB, everyone saw its capture by the elf gods as the sign they were planning to get rid of him/her/them. Like 1st step "Slaanesh is captured", 2nd step "Wow Slaanesh is gone ! Too bad !". And it was also linking up to the Ynnari plotline at that time in 40k.

Anyways, guess who ended getting not one but two waves of minis in the 2nd half of AoS2 ?

This whole discussion about Beasts' squatting in AoS3 is just to me a repeat of the discussion of Slaanesh's squatting in AoS1. Different arguments, same tune and vibe. Beastmen have been around since the inception of Warhammer, do you really think they're going away now ? Here's what I think of "GW will squat BoC in AoS4" :

They've done plastic Sisters, brought back Genestealer Cults, brought back Squats, brought back the Old World with Bretonnians and Tomb Kings, they're bringing back Chorfs... GW is in an era of rebuilding stuff, not cutting stuff up.

Whitefang never told us Slaanesh was going away though.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, The Red King said:

Whitefang never told us Slaanesh was going away though.

Whitefang told us about a spider Incarnate "connected to Gallet" and KB cavalry (hobgrots on gnashtoofs) were coming... I'm still waiting for those to be revealed by GW. 

[The Red King]

3 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Whitefang told us about a spider Incarnate "connected to Gallet" and KB cavalry (hobgrots on gnashtoofs) were coming... I'm still waiting for those to be revealed by GW. 

That is fair and something I hadn't considered. Thank you for that. 

[Vasshpit]

8 minutes ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

KB cavalry

I think this ended up being snarlfang. The grots are the same as on the rest of Kruleboyz line. I'd love for gitmob to be combined with Kruleboyz though. 

Sorry to disrupt the goat discussion. 

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Vasshpit said:

I think this ended up being snarlfang. The grots are the same as on the rest of Kruleboyz line. I'd love for gitmob to be combined with Kruleboyz though. 

Sorry to disrupt the goat discussion. 

I just wanted to say that Whitefang, even if he has a good track record, is not always 100% correct, has in the past given rumours that didn’t happen, and that TGA shouldn’t take his cryptic comments as if they were the gospel. It’s not a good idea to blindly follow rumours without question.

Edited February 9 by The Lost Sigmarite

[Augusto]

Its not only whitefang tho. we got the honest wargamer, then whitefang back me up. Later whitefang reacted a lot kinda confirming 95% Boc are gone from aos. I think its only matter of when and how. thus i created this to have fun guessing from the lore perspective

[The Lost Sigmarite]

43 minutes ago, Augusto said:

we got the honest wargamer, then whitefang back me up.

Honest Wargamer has a terrible rumour record. For example, all his Cities rumours were fake. And the other guy just repeats what Whitefang says (granted he’s a new addition to the forum).

If CSM are getting Beastmen, I don’t see them disappearing from the setting were they originated from : fantasy. Maybe the name of BoC will change, and the lore move away from the ungors/gors/monsters divide into something more AoS, but I feel like we’ll always have Beastmen somewhere. Even if that means they merge into StD.

[Augusto]

What if the reason BoC are gonna disapear is because we are gonna actually get an Drogrukh army, and they would have look so much similar. There are many clues that the Drogrukh are not extint. Maybe not in the 3/5 next years, but later

[The Lost Sigmarite]

There was some great takes about BoC on the rumour thread this weekend, I feel worth talking about because they made me change my mind. Mainly this one : "Beasts of Chaos may be going out, but Beastmen will remain". I love this, because it means that even if the ability to play a full BM army with its own BT will go (maybe), your Beastmen minis won't be homeless and won't suddenly stop to exist in the lore and tabletop. Beastmen won't stop existing in the Mortal Realms overnight if BoC goes out (if it ever does), they will absolutely find their way probably inside StD. Just like how they broke Chaos Daemons for AoS and gave them to the 4 monotheist god factions - and the demons of Undivided (Belakor, Furies) ended up in StD. 

For me, there's two possibilities :

1. Current BoC ranges goes to TOW and GW replaces them with a 100% AoS Beastman army with its own BT.
2. Current BoC ranges goes to TOW and GW moves the Beastmen from their own army to a StD subfaction. Which as a subfaction would mean less models would need to be made and the support of the rest of a range for extra listbuilding options.

It would feel strange for GW to revert to ye olden times of 90s WFB when Beastmen and Chaos were a common army, but as long as we're not in the head of the studio heads at Lenton (wish I was), we have to keep all options on the table.

[Tonhel]

If there is an option that BoC is merged into StD. It will only be a minimal amount of units that will be added to the battletome and preferable all new mini's. I could be mistaken but I can 't remember if in the old days Warriors of Chaos was mixed with Beastmen? I remember that deamons and mortals were combined in Hordes of Chaos, but I can't remember if it was the case with Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos. A merging of BoC and StD to me seems unlikely.

Everybody will have a different idea of what the likes of Whitefang mean. Mine interpretation of his likes is that BoC is gone from Aos and it will be replaced with something new, but that the aesthetics will be so different that the replacement of BoC will not be useable in TOW.

Imo, the replacement will be Chaos Dwarfs (which will also look very different than what we saw before) and these will have integrated somekind of beasts of chaos as slaves, mounts, monsters and etc.. . but bot comperable what BoC has now.

[BarakUrbaz]

Honestly, I don't see the point in merging Beasts of Chaos into Slaves to Darkness. Pretty much everything BoC can do STD can.

Gors and Ungors? STD already has lightly armoured melee troops, they're called Marauders.

Bestigors? STD already has heavy armoured elite troops, they're called Chaos Warriors.
Bullgors? STD already had monstrous infantry, they're called Ogroids.

Centigors? STD already has light cavalry, they're called Marauder Horsemen.

Dragon Ogres? STD already has superheavy elite cavalry, they're called Varanguard. 

A mixed Beasts and Slaves army would just result in a bloated feeling roster like the Stormcast, while also getting rid of the allegiance abilities that actually serve to make Beasts feel distinct on tabletop. 

Edited February 12 by BarakUrbaz

[Nezzhil]

On 2/9/2024 at 6:03 PM, The Lost Sigmarite said:

Whitefang told us about a spider Incarnate "connected to Gallet" and KB cavalry (hobgrots on gnashtoofs) were coming... I'm still waiting for those to be revealed by GW. 

The Incarnate exists. It was even mentioned during the Gallet season.
KB Cavalry was other leaker. He only have spoken about "orruk like LotR/Hobbit"

Edited February 12 by Nezzhil

[Augusto]

The new WD dawnbringers flashpoint has a group of std legionaries with a beastkin in it. Also in another warcry warband there is a bestigor in it already. Maybe they go that way

or Maybe they just fade in the backgroud ala Warderers

[Pizzaprez]

22 hours ago, Tonhel said:

If there is an option that BoC is merged into StD. It will only be a minimal amount of units that will be added to the battletome and preferable all new mini's. I could be mistaken but I can 't remember if in the old days Warriors of Chaos was mixed with Beastmen? I remember that deamons and mortals were combined in Hordes of Chaos, but I can't remember if it was the case with Beastmen and Warriors of Chaos. A merging of BoC and StD to me seems unlikely.

Everybody will have a different idea of what the likes of Whitefang mean. Mine interpretation of his likes is that BoC is gone from Aos and it will be replaced with something new, but that the aesthetics will be so different that the replacement of BoC will not be useable in TOW.

Imo, the replacement will be Chaos Dwarfs (which will also look very different than what we saw before) and these will have integrated somekind of beasts of chaos as slaves, mounts, monsters and etc.. . but bot comperable what BoC has now.

Back when I started, Dragon Ogors were moved from slaves to BoC: I've never felt like they were entirely at home with Beasts, and with current AoS lore (thinking Fomoroids, Ogroids, Mindstealers) Dragon Ogors would be more at home in S2D

Outside of the Herdstone mechanics and monsters (which do feel like a loss) iirc, Chaos is really only missing a "chaff" infantry. Gors -> Marauders, Bestigors -> Warriors, Centigors -> Marauder Horsemen etc. One could run a lot of the units in Slaves instead.

I think your assertion that Chaos Duardin are going to replace the beasts is accurate, even if I dislike it! I've wondered (and I've been anticipating) how AoS is going to give beasts a stronger identity. Some of their core things aren't exclusive to their faction anymore:

Animal Human hybrids of all shapes and sizes are generally seen as natural and often associated with Ghur. This includes Satyrs and Centaurs

Animal imagery, while never exclusive to them, has been something other factions have adopted. Bulls are now both a Lumineth and Chaos Duardin thing, and bull-like Ogroids exist too. If Chaos Duardin get Bull Centaurs that's two more for the list with Bulls and Centaurs in one

"Hating cities" as a staple is now generally a Destruction GA thing these days

Beasts quickly lost the chaos marks and factions associated with them, and didn't gain anything new to replace itL Skaven have the GHR, Chaos Duardin have Hashut but both Morghur and the "Sire of Ruin" are seemingly completely gone. The upcoming "Lady of Ruin" has a shockingly similar title and her spear makes chaos spawns.... absolutely makes it sound like she could have started life as a beastmen protagonist "prophet of morghur" and they pivoted to making her a Varanguard character

 

On 2/9/2024 at 6:23 PM, Augusto said:

What if the reason BoC are gonna disapear is because we are gonna actually get an Drogrukh army, and they would have look so much similar. There are many clues that the Drogrukh are not extint. Maybe not in the 3/5 next years, but later

If Lumineth keep getting animal stuff, Chaos Duardin stay Bull-themed, hating cities stays destruction, if we ever see more Kurnothi, and if Drogrukh get an army release, idk what beasts (in their current form) could have outside of Herdstones and a couple monsters to give them any sort of unique identity...

I'd like to see them melt into a Morghur faction, but hearing the "Lady of Ruin" has a spear that makes chaos spawn has me pretty positive we're not also getting a Sire of Ruin for Beastmen. If Beastmen are not going to get their one named character and if their only narrative arc was cut short, my hopium is on fumes

Edited February 12 by Pizzaprez

[BarakUrbaz]

6 hours ago, Pizzaprez said:

The upcoming "Lady of Ruin" has a shockingly similar title and her spear makes chaos spawns.... absolutely makes it sound like she could have started life as a beastmen protagonist "prophet of morghur" and they pivoted to making her a Varanguard character

 

That doesn't really make sense at all. You have to keep in mind that models are designed first by the artists and sculptors then the book writers give them fluff and rules. Some sculptor just made a female Chaos hero and some guy in the design studio decided to write her a backstory. I dunno how in the design process that could've possibly started as a Beasts thing. 

In regards to her spear, there's a very easy explanation for why it has that power. Varanite. The crazy substance in the Eightpoints that is known to cause rampant uncontrollable mutation, which we had an entire Warcry expansion about harvesting? They decided to make her spear Varanite because that's supposed to be what Archaon's forces are harvesting and weaponizing, and they gave it the power to shoot out fire to mutate people because that's what Varanite does. 

[Pizzaprez]

1 hour ago, BarakUrbaz said:

That doesn't really make sense at all. You have to keep in mind that models are designed first by the artists and sculptors then the book writers give them fluff and rules. Some sculptor just made a female Chaos hero and some guy in the design studio decided to write her a backstory. I dunno how in the design process that could've possibly started as a Beasts thing. 

In regards to her spear, there's a very easy explanation for why it has that power. Varanite. The crazy substance in the Eightpoints that is known to cause rampant uncontrollable mutation, which we had an entire Warcry expansion about harvesting? They decided to make her spear Varanite because that's supposed to be what Archaon's forces are harvesting and weaponizing, and they gave it the power to shoot out fire to mutate people because that's what Varanite does. 

Lol you pretty much described how the conversation probably went down

If they have updated chaos spawn, for example. in the pipes they could feel they need a character to help sell them. The lady chaos character with the flaming spear can have a flaming *varanite* spear and be the "spawn character" with literally no changes to the model itself.

She could've been the lady of literally anything else before they scrubbed the narrative

[mawhis117]

On 2/10/2024 at 12:23 AM, Augusto said:

What if the reason BoC are gonna disapear is because we are gonna actually get an Drogrukh army, and they would have look so much similar. There are many clues that the Drogrukh are not extint. Maybe not in the 3/5 next years, but later

This makes a huge amount of sense to me. Not only does it replace BoC in a more copyrightable way, but it gives Destruction a non-greenskin faction that can be run alongside Kragnos and resemble him aesthetically.

The Last Dawnbringers book contains a scene in which the Kruleboyz deliberately destroy signs left by the Drogrukh saying where they went before Kragnos can see them.

It also doesn't prevent you from producing other BoC-like armies as well - Gavespawn, Dragon Ogors, etc are all still on the cards if they want them to be.

Edited February 13 by mawhis117

[Tonhel]

13 hours ago, mawhis117 said:

This makes a huge amount of sense to me. Not only does it replace BoC in a more copyrightable way, but it gives Destruction a non-greenskin faction that can be run alongside Kragnos and resemble him aesthetically.

The Last Dawnbringers book contains a scene in which the Kruleboyz deliberately destroy signs left by the Drogrukh saying where they went before Kragnos can see them.

It also doesn't prevent you from producing other BoC-like armies as well - Gavespawn, Dragon Ogors, etc are all still on the cards if they want them to be.

True. Because of the nature of AoS, there is an unlimited amount of units / armies that can be added to the game, but the capacities for GW to support it is (very) limited. So if they want to add something new, armies will be removed or become GW online only. This is imo the case with BoC, it's making room for something else.

[Gaz Taylor]

My two pence....

No idea if Beasts will go away from Age of Sigmar. However, if it was me, I would be thinking about keeping the following models and developing new kits, and everything else moving to The Old World.

You can come up with new and exciting models and get players to buy new kits. I can totally see them making new Gor models as well as more themed god specific models. 

However, just to add and point out - Until it happens, all of this is speculation and rumours!

[cyrus]

13 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

My two pence....

No idea if Beasts will go away from Age of Sigmar. However, if it was me, I would be thinking about keeping the following models and developing new kits, and everything else moving to The Old World.

You can come up with new and exciting models and get players to buy new kits. I can totally see them making new Gor models as well as more themed god specific models. 

However, just to add and point out - Until it happens, all of this is speculation and rumours!

Yes , I am with it!

Add pestigors and khornegors ( really missing units for nurgle and khorne) and you have the gors of chaos !

 

 

[Tonhel]

Where is a place for Khornegors? There is no place for them in Blades of Khorne. There is already 3+/3+ Bloodletters and 3+/4+ blood warriors and for elites you have the Wrathmongers/Skullreapers which are also 3+/3+.

Tzaangors are essential unit for DoT from the beginning, although a more elite version. For BoK it's much harder to add them, while being different enough from the other foot units. There is also no place for them in StD, as it have the same problem as with BoK.

The whole AoS rulesystem is imo hitting its limits.