The Balewind elephant in the room

[Arkiham]

Same models

[DarkBlack]

On 10/5/2016 at 4:38 PM, amysrevenge said:

... "move" is a rules-specific term, that doesn't include charge or pile-in.

Nope. The word "move" is used in the rules for the movement, charge and combat phases. Also the FAQ referrers to "charge moves" and "pile-in moves" as "a type of move", for a question about unit coherency.

[DarkBlack]

I have no problem with summoning terrain in general. I do have an issue with anything that is "auto include" because those things are as such because they are worth more than they cost. The extra range and cc protection mitigates the cost of not being able to move.

The other problem with the vortex (that requires some sort of limitation for matched play) is that it is easily abused. The abuse that my group has issue with is that it (or several) can be cast on objectives (by a durable wizard), keeping everything 3" away.

[Arkiham]

Getting a bit fed up with seeing people moan about "auto include " there is always, always going to be auto include. 

Bloodsecrators are basically a auto include in khorne armies, does that mean they should cost more? same as liberators for stormcast, orruk Archers etc.

 

Balewinds allow wizards to be a more viable option, as currently with the masses of shooting going around they're a excessively easy target whose impact is already limited due to rule of 1, and can be contested from the opponents wizard or other models which can unbind.

Offensive spells on wizards aren't even that scary, I can't see what the big deal is.

D3 mortal wounds, typical roll of a 2. or 300 archer shots what's more broken? 

Balewinds actually make wizards viable offensively as well as defensively.

Forcing points onto them will ruin wizards 

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, DarkBlack said:

 

The other problem with the vortex (that requires some sort of limitation for matched play) is that it is easily abused. The abuse that my group has issue with is that it (or several) can be cast on objectives (by a durable wizard), keeping everything 3" away.

Is that really "abuse" though, or just a tactic? It's not like it's a secret ability.   You can plan for it, see it coming, and do something about it, just the same as any number of other things your foe may be doing to try to win the game. 

 

[amysrevenge]

2 hours ago, DarkBlack said:

Nope. The word "move" is used in the rules for the movement, charge and combat phases. Also the FAQ referrers to "charge moves" and "pile-in moves" as "a type of move", for a question about unit coherency.

Oh man, I was gonna come in here with rules screen shots and be all up in your grill about how wrong you are, but turns out the wording is different than I remember.  The underlined bit is key.  I thought that the wording was the same in the movement section of the main rules and in the vortex warscroll.  Turns out there's one specific difference that slipped by me earlier.

[WAAAGHdogg15]

So just need to wait and see if the warscroll changes.

I honestly can't see points being introduced, you pay for stuff like this when you pay for the wizard (just as bolt and shield are inbuilt costs). Some of the rules could possibly be toned down but again, I can't see it. I think what is more likely is that more funky scenery with equally funky rules will be released over time so that, in a year or so, everyone'll be like "Balewind what?"

[Nico]

Hopefully they will amend the Warscroll along the lines I suggested to the Events team, which will remove the difficulty in charging the unit on top.

[Aeonotakist]

I think if Balewind is popular, it will eventually eliminate all melee focused lists even like even Slayers.

 

A Queen of Life standing on top of Balewind and immune to melee can be very davastating, not like what you imagined 'mere D3 wound every round'

 

[Brucimus]

Had a game this weekend as bloodbound facing a Kroak on top of the Balewind with an astrolith bearer nearby. Could do literally nothing to stop him. The range was disgusting. 

Managed to win, only because the scenario allowed me to do so, but it was tight.

Hero's all died between the first and second turns. 

[Nico]

That's why I strained the FAQ to make it chargeable on an 8 (or just play it as a garrisoned building).

[WAAAGHdogg15]

3 minutes ago, Brucimus said:

Managed to win, only because the scenario allowed me to do so, but it was tight.

There's the clincher for me - AoS is a scenario based game. That combo is indeed devastating in terms of killing potential but it is not an auto-win button. As demonstrated here, there IS something you can do about the vortex - go and collect objectives whilst they're fannying around on their little magic perch.

[Arkiham]

6 minutes ago, Nico said:

That's why I strained the FAQ to make it chargeable on an 8 (or just play it as a garrisoned building).

While I agree that work around does work. it just breaks immersion too much for my liking. so I hope it doesn't get altered to be that way. but they do look into it either way.

[DarkBlack]

3 minutes ago, WAAAGHdogg15 said:

There's the clincher for me - AoS is a scenario based game. That combo is indeed devastating in terms of killing potential but it is not an auto-win button. As demonstrated here, there IS something you can do about the vortex - go and collect objectives whilst they're fannying around on their little magic perch.

What if he brings one for each objective?

[Arkiham]

6 minutes ago, DarkBlack said:

What if he brings one for each objective?

Then work around it. if you can't kill a dude on top of a balewind you've built your competitive list wrong.

If you aren't playing competitively just ask them not to do it.

If someone has a 500+ point monster sitting on one then that's 500 points not attacking infantry twice a round or what ever, their spells don't tend to be particularly offensive  

[Aeonotakist]

4 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Then work around it. if you can't kill a dude on top of a balewind you've built your competitive list wrong.

If you aren't playing competitively just ask them not to do it.

If someone has a 500+ point monster sitting on one then that's 500 points not attacking infantry twice a round or what ever, their spells don't tend to be particularly offensive  

IMO it will dramatically shrten the list of competitive list. Like SE Slayers, now they are very competitive cause they can always beheading the most important unit in an army. But unfortunately some of the most important units are also a wizard, like Archaon on horse or Celestial Hurricanum with white wizard.

I agree the magic in AOS is weak. Most of them allow you to do D3~D6 wounds and you cannot duplicate them. But the problem is those units with 'Wizard' keyword also has other abilities and some of them are davastating. A Hurricanum can bring +1 hit and +1 cast roll while doing 4D6 mortal wounds in 18'~36' every round with its spell together with special ability. Do you have any ranged unit that can do same damage for 400 points? Also how to deal with Archaon on horse that keep using its General Ability?

 

[Brucimus]

1 hour ago, WAAAGHdogg15 said:

There's the clincher for me - AoS is a scenario based game. That combo is indeed devastating in terms of killing potential but it is not an auto-win button. As demonstrated here, there IS something you can do about the vortex - go and collect objectives whilst they're fannying around on their little magic perch.

Thing is, the only reason i won, was luck. As a Khorne Bloodbound player it is impossible to counter.

In one turn he (Kroak) killed a Mighty lord of Khorne, Bloodsecrator, Blood Stoker and the crew of a hell cannon.

I brought the hell cannon only because I knew he was going the cheesy route, but still he gets the fist turn, I have no counter. 

If i was playing a pure Khorne Bloodbound list (which I usually do). No Slaughter priest, or anyone else can unbind because of the double range. And i'll die long before I can reach him, even if I could charge up the side of the Balewind.

I know I should play the objective, but when he's tossing out multiple D3 mortal wounds per turn on every unit, I can only sit on an objective so long and not be concerned, especially on a 4x4 table, even a 6 x 4 is going to be trouble when positioned well.

I'd rather not have to resort to bringing warp lightning cannons and hell cannons just in case, I don't want to have to do that. But it feels like melee centric armies are at a huge disadvantage to those that can bring Balewinds for free.

Yes I could bring a Sorcerer lord (not fluffy), and summon Pink horrors (even less fluffy) But whats the point?

 

[Nico]

Quote

A Hurricanum can bring +1 hit and +1 cast roll while doing 4D6 mortal wounds in 18'~36' every round with its spell together with special ability. 

Only +1 cast to other Collegiate Wizards, so basically itself and maybe a Luminark.

It does about 5 mortal wounds with the shooting attack. The spell is a hard cast roll and only does D6 mortal wounds on the target you prefer (instead of their chaff unit) half the time. 4 D6 is a massive exaggeration.

Quote

In one turn he (Kroak) killed a Mighty lord of Khorne, Bloodsecrator, Blood Stoker and the crew of a hell cannon.

I brought the hell cannon only because I knew he was going the cheesy route, but still he gets the fist turn, I have no counter. 

You took a Hellcannon in a Khorne List, so my sympathy level just plummeted. Moreover you still won the game.

Presumably this wasn't the first turn or were you in range of the bubble? How many Astrolith Bearers did he have?

Kroak is the only wizard where the Balewind becomes seriously overpowered. It's amzing how often you will fail the 5 to cast to summon it in the first place.

It's still subject to the rule of one, so very unlikely you will move to the first objective with one wizard, get the next turn, summon it there, move a wizard to another objective, summon another one there etc.. Also, I would have thought there would be space to get models in, it's a 6 inch radius from the edge of the objective?  

 

[Brucimus]

2 minutes ago, Nico said:

You took a Hellcannon in a Khorne List, so my sympathy level just plummeted. Moreover you still won the game.

Presumably this wasn't the first turn or were you in range of the bubble? How many Astrolith Bearers did he have?

Kroak is the only wizard where the Balewind becomes seriously overpowered. It's amzing how often you will fail the 5 to cast to summon it in the first place.

It's still subject to the rule of one, so very unlikely you will move to the first objective with one wizard, get the next turn, summon it there, move a wizard to another objective, summon another one there etc.. Also, I would have thought there would be space to get models in, it's a 6 inch radius from the edge of the objective?  

 

The sceneario had me defending a realmgate he had to destroy in the middle of the board, his deployment zone was close enough to hit my whole army in turn 1. Kroaks Comets Call has infinite range, and Celestial Deliverance has 3 x D6 range, doubled because of the balewind, and plus 8 because of the astrolith bearer. It managed to be consistently 30 odd inches each time, plus Kroak could reroll dodgy dice rolls. Of course he also has Arcane Bolt.

Not asking for sympathy, just wanted to highlight my attempt at countering it, at I know the hellcannon was cheese, but if i had no prior warning and played my normal 1500 points of pure bloodbound i would be helpless. As i said though, the crew died turn one, so the hell cannon had to move and easily missed its only shot.

 

[Nico]

Quote

3 x D6 range, doubled because of the balewind, and plus 8 because of the astrolith bearer. 

He could choose to add the 8 first and then double it. He could even add 16 with 2 and then double that.

[Brucimus]

1 minute ago, Nico said:

He could choose to add the 8 first and then double it. He could even add 16 with 2 and then double that.

Well indeed, so as I say, hard to do much about that.

Not meaning to come across as moaning, but i figure its best for people to hear accounts of how it affects games and judge it accordingly.

[DarkBlack]

38 minutes ago, Nico said:

Kroak is the only wizard where the Balewind becomes seriously overpowered. It's amzing how often you will fail the 5 to cast to summon it in the first place.

Lord of Change. 4+ save and 10 wounds is hard to shift with shooting (unless you brought the right army) and it needs a double one to fail a casting roll of 5. Whiles he's up there the LoC is throwing Infernal Gateways 36" (it does and average of 6 mortal wounds) and has another spell to cast.

[Nico]

Quote

Lord of Change. 4+ save and 10 wounds is hard to shift with shooting (unless you brought the right army) and it needs a double one to fail a casting roll of 5. Whiles he's up there the LoC is throwing Infernal Gateways 36" (it does and average of 6 mortal wounds) and has another spell to cast.

For what it's worth you're assuming that he's the general, which is a bad plan. You need a 3 on either dice to get the cast off - still very easy.

Compare that to a Thundertusk (60 points more to be fair), which is an equally reliable 5-6 mortal (maximum 7) wounds at a similar range, except it's on a monster that's tougher (more wounds and -1 to hit in melee is a big deal) and still does very significant damage in melee. Similarly a Warp Lightning Cannon, Magma Cannon or even Hellcannon provide similar mortal wounds at a distance. 

[Arkiham]

Agreed, I sold my hellcannon as it felt unfair to use it as of its strength.

[Nico]

Quote

Agreed, I sold my hellcannon as it felt unfair to use it as of its strength.

I bought my Balewind to give a melee army a counter to a Hellcannon (which did 18 mortal wounds in 2 turns against a Magma Dragon at a tournament).

I've since used it to buff Mannfred's spell, which is nice, but hardly earth shattering. I am looking forward to using it with a Daemonsmith to debuff Savage Orruk Arrerboyz, so they are back to hitting on 6s.