Summoning Q?

[Rusted Weapons]

 Hi all I've added an example of the ability as attached. So when summoning to the board...the unit is SET UP within 18" of caster. Do all models need to be within this bubble or can the small toe of one be inside it with the rest trailing off behind him and thus outside the 18" range?

[Nico]

Interestingly one of the rules for Woods requires you to put all the Woods within a range (Silent Communion), but the other 3 let you conga away.

[MarkyMark]

On 9/18/2016 at 2:31 PM, carrigher82 said:

I hear what's been said and I suppose as long as there's consistency across the game then that's what's most important, consistently all within 18" or consistently with 1 in and the rest out then I can accept it. Really doesn't detract from the point that you end up with some really odd situations that can instantly be seen as nowhere near what the original rule was intended to imply.

Its consistently with the wording though, if it is intended to be all within X range, then it should say completely within, where else if it isnt intended then within is fine.

[Nico]

Congaing sounds amazing but really all it might do is let you pull a wizard back a bit and still have your front models 9 inches away. 9 inch exclusion zone is massive.

[Rusted Weapons]

I hear what's been said and I suppose as long as there's consistency across the game then that's what's most important, consistently all within 18" or consistently with 1 in and the rest out then I can accept it. Really doesn't detract from the point that you end up with some really odd situations that can instantly be seen as nowhere near what the original rule was intended to imply.

[hobgoblinclub]

I was in the that camp but, I'd agree with others in saying that it you can shoot at a unit within 18", saying 'summon within' kind of implies the same thing. While I'll agree it's perhaps a little ambiguous, there's logic in saying you can place them without. I think I'm sold, until we see clarification anyway.

[Rusted Weapons]

Some of the loopholes in simple wording leads to some things feeling just a little bit like a heap of BS. We know through common sense and decency when a move is BS regardless ofhow we can play on the wording minutiae within rules. There should be an overarching acknowledgement across the game that - look to prescribe every single eventually and possible interpretation in a rule book would require a ridiculously sized document, we don't want to do that as its tedious to play, so with that in mind, when a rule says something along the lines of "within 18" just use it in its common sense term to mean put your models within 18" not a toe of one, whilst the rest trail across a landscape of 3ft! Sure you can play on words to justify this but lets use the rule of thumb that if your common man would take the rule to mean "all within so many inches" then play that.

[hobgoblinclub]

It won't be changed to be wholly within, otherwise it will massively change a lot of units. If it wanted it to be wholly within it would say, clearly.

For instance. " all models must be within range " 

They probably should rewrite it anyway, if they update the scrolls in the future. Semantically, 'within' is open to interpretation.

'They were within the walls of the building' implies wholly within.

'The building was within reach' implies part of the building.

I'll definitely be playing it as part of the unit in future. It could do with some clarity though.

[Arkiham]

It won't be changed to be wholly within, otherwise it will massively change a lot of units. If it wanted it to be wholly within it would say, clearly.

For instance. " all models must be within range " 

[hobgoblinclub]

A unit of 10 zombies would be within 18" if the one on the end was in range. If the wording was "set up 10 zombie models within 18"" or even just "set up ten zombies within 18"" then I'd agree. The word "unit" is key here I feel.

As you say it is a legitimate discussion and actually I appreciate you playing devil's advocate because it's really made me think about the rule. In doing so though, I've realised that it's far less of a common sense approach to interpret "within" as "wholly within."

Just had a look through the FAQs and if it's there, I've missed it. If indeed it isn't I hope it gets added soon. Every member of GW staff I've talked to has confirmed that "within" just means partially within though.

Cool. I totally get both sides of the argument. Your point about the difference between it stating unit/models is probably the clincher. I just fear that it's a game changer from the way we've been playing. We shall see.

[WAAAGHdogg15]

A unit of 10 zombies would be within 18" if the one on the end was in range. If the wording was "set up 10 zombie models within 18"" or even just "set up ten zombies within 18"" then I'd agree. The word "unit" is key here I feel.

As you say it is a legitimate discussion and actually I appreciate you playing devil's advocate because it's really made me think about the rule. In doing so though, I've realised that it's far less of a common sense approach to interpret "within" as "wholly within."

Just had a look through the FAQs and if it's there, I've missed it. If indeed it isn't I hope it gets added soon. Every member of GW staff I've talked to has confirmed that "within" just means partially within though.

[hobgoblinclub]

This is a perfectly legitimate discussion. The question has been asked so I'm putting in my thoughts. I've had a look and the wording is actually different.

Arcane bolt and mystic shield say 'pick a unit/an enemy unit, within 18"'. Summoning, on the other hand, says things like 'set up a unit of 10 zombies with 18"". This seems to be going as far as specifying a number of models that need to stay within the given distance.

I get that, as you said, the tournament community may be playing it one way. It just seems to me to be intended another way.

[Nico]

Arcane bolt is very different fluff wise, but rules wise the wording is identical! Please stop trying to nerf summoning for no reason. Summoning is weak under the GH. In 6 games I saw no summoning at The Warlords - 6 Gunlines out of 6. Daemons were nowhere to be seen on adjacent tables - except Kairos in Terry's List and a few Bloodletter bombs (which don't involve summoning). Not sure about Death #WardSave.

In particular you can summon a unit conga it out of the 18 range and then cast mystic shield on it as the distance wording is identical!

[hobgoblinclub]

Arcane bolt is a very different situation though. You can hit a unit which only has one model within range because you only need to hit one. It's a quirk of the rules that you can remove model at the other end of the unit as casualties. Think about that in terms of melee. You can hit a guy with an axe and yet his mate 6" away is removed. With summoning, you wizard is bringing all of the models to the battle. He should have to be within range of all of them.

[WAAAGHdogg15]

I appreciate that it sounds wrong and as though it can be abused but in practice, the 9" rule for summoning is there to stop any over the top shenanigans and usually it does. With models and terrain all over the board, the "within just means one model within" rule becomes quite difficult to use in a massively broken way.

I currently play Sylvaneth and placing Wyldwoods is a nightmare. It'd almost be pointless having the ability to generate them If "within" meant "fully within."

[Nico]

Quote

Something I would do, probably not, but wouldn't get hugely grumpy if it happened to me, its a valid and reasonably common use of summoning.

This is standard Tzeentch strategy - usually with Flamers as no unbinding shooting attacks or summoning the LoC into range to zap, before he then flies away. Did we see any pure Tzeentch lists at The Warlords? I barely saw a Daemon at all that wasn't a Bloodthirster or Nurgle.

[Arkiham]

What you can summon is limited, so the effectiveness of this is minimal, if you conga out then you're over extending your unit and will be crushed.you'll get very little attacks in and be swamped by them, waste of points tbh

[Paul Buckler]

Try this exmaple.

Mystic bolt - unit within 18 inches and LOS takes d3 mortal wounds.  Not every model from the target unit needs to be within 18" to cast it.

So summoning states set up a unit within x.  The whole of the unit doesn't have to be within x either.

Summon for example Horrors, string them out so 1 is within distance of the summoner, and the far one is within distance of an arcane bolt on a character with 1 wound left.  Bingo you've massivley exteneded your range of bolt.  (Providing you cast it).

Something I would do, probably not, but wouldn't get hugely grumpy if it happened to me, its a valid and reasonably common use of summoning.

 

 

[Sadysaneto]

Units work this way. You just need one base in range to affect the whole unit. 

[Nico]

The game specifies that you measure to unit or measure to model in particular cases and has rules for both cases.

For units, you measure between the closest point of the unit (i.e. The nearest edge of the nearest base).

This does mean that you can conga models of a unit out of 18 just as you can shoot at a unit or cast arcane bolt on it even if only one model is within range. It doesn't help as much as you might think - add 9 to 18 and you get 27, so more than the gap between armies.

[hobgoblinclub]

Sorry, it's not clear what you mean. Do you think it's OK to conga further than 18"? I can't see that it saying 'deploy the models' or 'deploy the fanatics' would make a difference to how it was played.

[Nico]

It's absolutely clear from the meaning of measuring distances to and from units in the Rules. Notably the wording for summoning is identical to the wording for arcane bolt. This has been settled for 10 months. There are a handful of rules which specify the models must be within etc. elsewhere. Fanatics can also conga as it says deploy the Fanatics, i.e. The name of the unit/warscroll within 1 inch rather than deploy the models.

You can conga away, but the 9 inch rule still makes it a bad gamble on the charge. 

Consequently summoning is only primarily useful for dropping slow junk on objectives or for bringing on Archai (who can easily bridge a 9 charge) or Flamers.

It now at least has the ability to pick from a large and indefinite pool of points, so you can respond to the enemy list.

[hobgoblinclub]

Surely this can't be right. 'Within' must mean wholly within.

What about the warp grinder? If I dig with a massive unit of clanrats, I could conga them across the battlefield! 

And it'd make a joke of the cover rule. Are my 40 clanrats with a forest if one base is actually in it?

From a rules writing perspective 'within' in one instance must mean the same in another, otherwise it's a mess. 

[WAAAGHdogg15]

A friend of mine explains this in a very memorable but disgusting way. I'll clean it up for the benefit of those easily offended.

If I put my finger up your... nostril... I am within you. I am not entirely within you but I am within you nevertheless. Same for this. Within does not mean entirely within unless specified.

[Nico]

Nearest part of base of one model, so conga away.