New Games Workshop NDA for influencers UPDATE 2: The document appears to be real.

[Orbei]

4 hours ago, ArkanautDadmiral said:

We could boycott GW official events, rather than GW as a whole. Protest outside stores etc. Stop visiting GWs sites for information and get it from third parties instead. Easy things that don’t stop people from playing with their models, and these are just ideas off the top of my head. That’s what I’ve been dissatisfied with, I’m never presented with ideas like this by the most vocal against GWs actions in these discussions, so it ends up feeling to me (and this isn’t aimed at the person I’m quoting or anyone in particular so we’re clear) like people just want to spout anti capitalist platitudes to satisfy a fetish more than anything. It seems like it’s all talk, literally. I can respect the people who say 3D print everything in this regard, even if I don’t agree, because at least they’re presenting an idea.

This thread has been a discussion about the NDA. There have been several recent threads discussing other things some people are unhappy with regarding GW, such as WH+ and the new app. A call to community action as you're suggesting might be better off as its own topic. It's possible more information specific to the NDA comes out and this thread would remain a place for that continued discussion.

So yes, it literally is all talk. Personally I am not interested in spouting pro/anti capitalist ideas or telling others what to do. I value this discussion and others like it for the knowledge. If GW is doing something shady I appreciate knowing about it and can use that knowledge to inform my own purchases. I haven't reached a point of boycott, but I also don't want my head buried in the sand.

[The Red King]

5 hours ago, ArkanautDadmiral said:

I can agree with that , hence why I said personal responsibility doesn’t absolve a corporation of responsibility. but it’s not what you said. You said personal responsibility is just a buzz word. Just as personal responsibility doesn’t absolve the corporation of theirs, the corporation doesn’t absolve us of our own. Maybe I misunderstood but you seemed to imply that personal responsibility doesn’t exist and it’s a buzzword manufactured by corporations. That’s why I took exception.

Just because a casino has tactics to try and make you spend more than you have doesn’t mean that you’re not also to blame for making the wrong choices. Both can be true. Just because someone got burnt by a shady business tactic or a scam or whatever doesn’t mean they didn’t make a wrong choice. I agree the scam shouldn’t happen, but they do, so we must look out for ourselves. Especially if the end game is the knowledge that the scam/shady tactic happens and not action to make it stop. If your end game is knowledge then it falls to personal responsibility to make the better choice with it.

We’re going round in circles with this though, because as I’ve already said, you’re preaching to the converted. Only I obviously put more onus on personal choice and responsibility than you who seems to sit the majority of it at the corporations door. That’s cool if you feel that way. I disagree though.

Ultimately my hope is that all the big content creators cover much less GW, and much more of other systems and hopefully affect the imbalance in the market place.

We could boycott GW official events, rather than GW as a whole. Protest outside stores etc. Stop visiting GWs sites for information and get it from third parties instead. Easy things that don’t stop people from playing with their models, and these are just ideas off the top of my head. That’s what I’ve been dissatisfied with, I’m never presented with ideas like this by the most vocal against GWs actions in these discussions, so it ends up feeling to me (and this isn’t aimed at the person I’m quoting or anyone in particular so we’re clear) like people just want to spout anti capitalist platitudes to satisfy a fetish more than anything. It seems like it’s all talk, literally. I can respect the people who say 3D print everything in this regard, even if I don’t agree, because at least they’re presenting an idea.

I suppose that’s the end for me in these conversations now, because I’m aware of the shady practices… so I suppose I’ll just carry on as usual then.

I think we just have different views of the phrase buzzword. Personal responsibility is a real thing, it's just that the term has been co-opted and an additional meaning has been added to it through connotation. The definition of personal responsibility has not changed in the dictionary but the phrase is often used in a manner that is not actually related to that definition is what I mean. 

[Mattrulesok]

19 hours ago, ArkanautDadmiral said:

Everyone always has personal responsibility, it’s not a buzzword. That’s not to say a corporation doesn’t have any responsibility, but we’re never excused from being responsible for ourselves.

I’m personally responsible for everything I do, if I decide to gamble away all my money, that’s my responsibility. We have to be accountable for our own actions.

I find it really interesting you used Gambling as an example. Gambling addiction/dependence is a real thing (Gambling disorder), it affects a not insignificant number of people (the number changes depending where you live and the laws and regulations around gambling), there is increasing evidence that most gambling problems are caused by mental disorders (mental illness), neurodiverse people are more likely to have gambling issues, Austistic people are the worst hit in this regard. Most gambling companies however make the majority of their money of a small percentage of their audience, those with gambling disorders primarily. None of this information is secret from gambling companies yet everywhere you turn there is advertising for gambling, TV, youtube, websites. Video games now have built in gambling mechanics and not as fun bits of game play but as actual real money gambling. and there's even more shady **** the further you dig.

 

All this is to say im sure that's not actually what you meant, you grabbed a random example without really thinking im sure (probably because you aren't a problem gambler im assuming). The gambling/mental health/addiction space is not one known well by the general public unless they have been directly effected (and even then not always).

 

Anyway i've gone off topic and this doesn't relate to GW (they don't have any gambling mechanics im aware of) but it's more to say, I understand what you mean by personal responsibility but too often we look at personal responsibility first when corporate and societal responsibility can be so much more powerful in governing our lives, humans rarely function in a bubble, we are the product of our environments and experiences.

 

again apologies for going a little off topic

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

2 hours ago, Mattrulesok said:

I find it really interesting you used Gambling as an example. Gambling addiction/dependence is a real thing (Gambling disorder), it affects a not insignificant number of people (the number changes depending where you live and the laws and regulations around gambling), there is increasing evidence that most gambling problems are caused by mental disorders (mental illness), neurodiverse people are more likely to have gambling issues, Austistic people are the worst hit in this regard. Most gambling companies however make the majority of their money of a small percentage of their audience, those with gambling disorders primarily. None of this information is secret from gambling companies yet everywhere you turn there is advertising for gambling, TV, youtube, websites. Video games now have built in gambling mechanics and not as fun bits of game play but as actual real money gambling. and there's even more shady **** the further you dig.

 

All this is to say im sure that's not actually what you meant, you grabbed a random example without really thinking im sure (probably because you aren't a problem gambler im assuming). The gambling/mental health/addiction space is not one known well by the general public unless they have been directly effected (and even then not always).

 

Anyway i've gone off topic and this doesn't relate to GW (they don't have any gambling mechanics im aware of) but it's more to say, I understand what you mean by personal responsibility but too often we look at personal responsibility first when corporate and societal responsibility can be so much more powerful in governing our lives, humans rarely function in a bubble, we are the product of our environments and experiences.

 

again apologies for going a little off topic

I think the point they where making was drawing parallels that the two entities (GW and casinos) take measures to control or influence the ecosystem around to, for lack of a better word, snare customers that would otherwise make different decisions if they had all the info.

In the case of video games we can make a more direct parallel to GW's current practices: Controlling early access to review copies, cutting out and charging for services or mechanics that used to be an expected part of the product experience, releasing poorly balanced or undertested products to drive sales at reduced cost. All of these practices are perfectly legal, within the businesses rights to do and some would argue what they should do as long as people are paying for it. But I think we can both agree that because they can and will doesn't mean they should. 

To take from you're own post there is a corporate responsibility that GW, video games publishers and many other companies fail to uphold when it comes to the treatment of their customers and tertiary members of there ecosystems like reviewers or other influencers. While GW doesn't do any gambling or lootbox style products (outside of that one run of space marine heroes) they instead sell products that are worth more than the upfront cost of the game EA is selling to get you into gambling for soccer players or whatever. So a consumer mislead by a shady review about say the upcoming black templars box for example might get excited and drop $1000 on a black templars army that turns out to be ******, incomplete, poorly written codex or any number of flaws. I've unfortunately met many people in the community with poor impulse control that will purchase an entire army because of one overhyped release and find themselves disappointed by it once it's actually in their hands. All because they fell for the same shady tricks employed by games publishers that push there virtual gambling ecosystems onto players. Similar dirty tricks but for GW it's a large profit upfront rather than a continuous bleeding of a whale that EA sports titles aim for.  And rather than the gambling addicted whale, it's the impulse shopper who sees cool new black templars, buys a whole army and is disappointed by it and leaves it half finished in their closet. Or someone who picks up underworlds and realizes it wasn't what the reviews made it out to be.

I hope this rambling makes drawing the parallel make a little more sense and needless to say if the NDA that spawned this thread is real then it goes further to prove GW is trying to control the ecosystem around their business to influence more of these impulse buyers.

[pnkdth]

10 hours ago, ArkanautDadmiral said:

We could boycott GW official events, rather than GW as a whole. Protest outside stores etc. Stop visiting GWs sites for information and get it from third parties instead. Easy things that don’t stop people from playing with their models, and these are just ideas off the top of my head. That’s what I’ve been dissatisfied with, I’m never presented with ideas like this by the most vocal against GWs actions in these discussions, so it ends up feeling to me (and this isn’t aimed at the person I’m quoting or anyone in particular so we’re clear) like people just want to spout anti capitalist platitudes to satisfy a fetish more than anything. It seems like it’s all talk, literally. I can respect the people who say 3D print everything in this regard, even if I don’t agree, because at least they’re presenting an idea.

I suppose that’s the end for me in these conversations now, because I’m aware of the shady practices… so I suppose I’ll just carry on as usual then.

I've stopped buying GW products. Started to give attention and my time to other games.

If you choose to go on with business as usual nothing will change but I can pretty much guarantee change when and if GW notice a change in customer behaviour. I've already seen content creators cover other games and miniatures they haven't done before and that's the way the ball will start rolling, i.e. when GW notice that their players are starting to play other games.

Whatever loyalty or faith I had for GW has evaporated since everything is profit, profit, profit. To the point where the games they provide us with suffer for it. What that means is, 1) drip fed armies, 2) expansions, 3) power creep turning into power leaps, 4) FAQs for FAQs, 5) unreasonable deadlines and low pay for game devs/artists, 6) raising prices during a period of record profits, 7) subscription service which is cynically made to max out profits... And there's more. Being pro-business does not mean you got to take stuff like this lying down and I am sick of hearing the same lame argument of "don't you know GW is a company?!" In fact, good business is based on a mutually agreed upon deal. GW has chosen a path where they are testing the limits of people's threshold and has such has lost a customer since 20+ years.

It ain't all bad though. I've discovered other amazing games and gotten fresh new experiences on the tabletop. Just because we've spent X amount of time an Y amount of money on their toy soldiers does not mean you gotta keep spending. I mean, you can always return where you left off. For me though, they gotta steer their ship back towards a direction which makes me think of them as a hobby company again and not as the 'EA of tabletop gaming.'

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
Just a nudge here folks, but if we are replying to this thread can we keep it on topic?