Slaaneshi worldview and concepts

[PiotrW]

The subject of Slaaneshi philosophy, army concepts etc. really interests me - and I didn't want to keep hijacking the main Hedonites Discussion thread. So, I thought I'll continue the discussion in a separate thread...

@Yoid @CeleFAZE @ssetr @TheArborealWalrus @Enoby thank you for sharing your concepts! All of them are inspirational.

I was wondering: if Slaanesh is about all kinds of excess, could there a Slaaneshi cult based on piety? I can kind of see a group of ascetics moving toward more and more fanatical practices, without realizing they are actually getting a lot of pleasure from all the self-mortification and intense prayers. Not sure how this group would move toward summoning daemons that ride chariots that cut people into ribbons, though...

In general, my vision of a Hedonites army is pretty basic: that of a weird-scented horde full of sensual bodies, teeth, pincers and blades, traversing the land in a fast-moving cavalcade and shredding everything in their path. Not sure how to connect with that emotionally, though...

(I have the same problem with WH40K's Deathguard. I like them and I'm slowly building a joint "normal" Chaos Marines / Deathguard army there. Their new codex is... very atmospheric with all these mentions of half-rotten Marines, clouds of flies etc. But I can't actually come up with potential personalities for them - how could anyone with even a portion of a brain left actually worship Nurgle..?)

[Enoby]

13 hours ago, PiotrW said:

was wondering: if Slaanesh is about all kinds of excess, could there a Slaaneshi cult based on piety? I can kind of see a group of ascetics moving toward more and more fanatical practices, without realizing they are actually getting a lot of pleasure from all the self-mortification and intense prayers. Not sure how this group would move toward summoning daemons that ride chariots that cut people into ribbons, though...

You certainly could It could start off simply enough, perhaps a storm or some other natural disaster strikes and the local clergy of a small town thinks they have upset their god - maybe standards are slipping, they think, and they'd best shape up before this happens again. So they make some reasonable adjustments, perhaps a minute of silent revenancr every day, extra prayer sessions, confessions of sin etc. Nothing crazy, but they want to make sure this doesn't happen again. 

Unfortunately, either due to bad luck or secret daemonic interference, a natural disaster strikes again. Clearly, their god is not pleased and more must be done. Many have died or had their livelyhoods ruined, so they call an emergency meeting. It becomes clear that some people in the town have not attended church particularly regularly, and all agree that this must have displeased the god. So, sensibly enough, prayer and church attendance becomes mandatory. After all, it's only a small price to pay. 

However, this is in vain, and another natural disaster strikes - this one likely caused by the divine, but perhaps not the divine they are thinking of. Their town is a wreck and they are at their wits end - they have lost family and friends, and all because they are doing something wrong in the eyes of their god. Perhaps those who did not attend church are not putting their all into the prayers...

They round these potential heretics up and take them to the unscathed church. Desperately, they call out to their god for answers on what they can do to stop their wrath. The answer that comes back is simple - "sacrifice". Kicking and screaming, these "heretics" - the cause of all of their trouble - are brought to the altar. Perhaps on their own, no man or woman would have dared do something so murderous, but the witch hunting mob is in a desperate frenzy and they have heard divine words. The people who were once their neighbours are slain one by one, and as the last body falls, something bathed in white light emerges from the blood - an angel. Or at least, what looks to be one - in truth, and utterly unknown to them, this is a daemon. 

This divine messenger tells them how unhappy their god has been at them, and how worse is to come if they do not repent. As the angelic being fades, the clergy is whipped into a terrified frenzy; their fears have been confirmed and there is only one solution - to do more. Some brand their skin with holy symbols, others vow to permanent silence and sever their vocal chords, and others punish themselves through various methods of self torture. 

The town may never know it was Slaanesh who caused this, but they serve the Dark Prince all the same.

15 hours ago, PiotrW said:

In general, my vision of a Hedonites army is pretty basic: that of a weird-scented horde full of sensual bodies, teeth, pincers and blades, traversing the land in a fast-moving cavalcade and shredding everything in their path. Not sure how to connect with that emotionally, though...

(I have the same problem with WH40K's Deathguard. I like them and I'm slowly building a joint "normal" Chaos Marines / Deathguard army there. Their new codex is... very atmospheric with all these mentions of half-rotten Marines, clouds of flies etc. But I can't actually come up with potential personalities for them - how could anyone with even a portion of a brain left actually worship Nurgle..?)

Unfortunately GW has a tendency to write chaos as very one dimensional (esp in codexes and battletomes), so you'll get your Nurgle characters called Glothox Boilbeard and your Khorne characters called Skaroth Skulltaker and they'll behave exactly how they sound. These kind of characters are usually impossible to emotionally connect to because they're utterly ridiculous. They're nothing like a real human and come off as a video game grunt.

Thankfully, for our own armies, we can be a bit more nuanced. For example, using that piety background above, you could have a priestess with a perfectly normal name (let's called her Josephine Delores) who joined the church initially not out of devotion, but because she saw it as a force of good in the world. She couldn't sit by as people were injured and so devoted her life to helping them. When the church was corrupted, Josephine did not take part in the sacrifice and instead offered herself forward to take the place of one of them. They accepted her offer to allow one of the younger "heretics" to go free in place of severe corporal punishment. As she was being lashed and branded, she found herself relishing the experience - not because she was getting off to the pain, but because the feeling of martyrdom was exilerating. She had offered her life in place of another's, and though she was not killed, that feeling of being a saviour was intoxicating. There are a lot of directions you could take with this character, and most of them treat her as a human being rather than a parody. 

I think the best way to humanise with a chaos character is to move away from the GW battletome chaos side of them, because those battletomes only show the base of the army rather than intricate stories that Black Library books should show    

[pnkdth]

To me Slaanesh stands out among the rest. You could create a person who take "end justifies the means" way too far. That person wants to do good but end up working only to that specific good at the detriment of all others (which creates enemies and competitors). As this behaviour develops you can imagine all kinds of dark deeds "for the greater good."

Slaanesh can also be quite subtle, i.e. have an outward appearance of beauty and adoration for X or Y reason yet is ugly as sin underneath the skin. With your idea of piety, the followers of your Slaaneshi sect could very well view them as glorious angels and righteous avengers made manifest through their purity of heart and belief. Taking it further, this could send them on a crusade where they forcibly bring people in (it is for their own good!) because how could you not see the glorious and righteous message? ONLY THE HERETIC! and so on. Kind of makes me think of the Shadow over Innsmouth and the esoteric order of Dagon (H.P Lovecraft mythos). Like Enoby suggests, a messenger of the gods bringing new fortune. Why else would they be sheltered if not because of our faithful hearts? 

I like to toy around with positive traits and great deeds and then how could this be corrupted into something wicked. Dark Eldar (or Drukhari) is an example of this being turned up to 11 and an interesting approach. How far will you push yourself to get what you desire while silencing the voice of your conscience? How long till it stops talking and you become someone you never could have imagined.

Edited March 25, 2021 by pnkdth

[PiotrW]

On 3/25/2021 at 12:58 PM, Enoby said:

You certainly could It could start off simply enough, perhaps a storm or some other natural disaster strikes and the local clergy of a small town thinks they have upset their god - maybe standards are slipping, they think, and they'd best shape up before this happens again. So they make some reasonable adjustments, perhaps a minute of silent revenancr every day, extra prayer sessions, confessions of sin etc. Nothing crazy, but they want to make sure this doesn't happen again. 

Unfortunately, either due to bad luck or secret daemonic interference, a natural disaster strikes again. Clearly, their god is not pleased and more must be done. Many have died or had their livelyhoods ruined, so they call an emergency meeting. It becomes clear that some people in the town have not attended church particularly regularly, and all agree that this must have displeased the god. So, sensibly enough, prayer and church attendance becomes mandatory. After all, it's only a small price to pay. 

However, this is in vain, and another natural disaster strikes - this one likely caused by the divine, but perhaps not the divine they are thinking of. Their town is a wreck and they are at their wits end - they have lost family and friends, and all because they are doing something wrong in the eyes of their god. Perhaps those who did not attend church are not putting their all into the prayers...

They round these potential heretics up and take them to the unscathed church. Desperately, they call out to their god for answers on what they can do to stop their wrath. The answer that comes back is simple - "sacrifice". Kicking and screaming, these "heretics" - the cause of all of their trouble - are brought to the altar. Perhaps on their own, no man or woman would have dared do something so murderous, but the witch hunting mob is in a desperate frenzy and they have heard divine words. The people who were once their neighbours are slain one by one, and as the last body falls, something bathed in white light emerges from the blood - an angel. Or at least, what looks to be one - in truth, and utterly unknown to them, this is a daemon. 

This divine messenger tells them how unhappy their god has been at them, and how worse is to come if they do not repent. As the angelic being fades, the clergy is whipped into a terrified frenzy; their fears have been confirmed and there is only one solution - to do more. Some brand their skin with holy symbols, others vow to permanent silence and sever their vocal chords, and others punish themselves through various methods of self torture. 

The town may never know it was Slaanesh who caused this, but they serve the Dark Prince all the same.

Ooooh, nice!

Here's another interpretation of the idea of piety leading to Slaanesh: religious ecstasy. I've read a bit on female Christian mystics, as well as I've seen my share of nun-related movies (both nunspoitation and more serious stuff, like Ken Russell's amazing Devils - highly recommended, BTW) and I've got the impression that, for some of them, their piety seemed to have some curious undertones. I think one could roll with such an idea for a Slaaneshi cult. See, they used to be these priestesses who devoted themselves to prayer, ascetic leaving etc... and got so deep into it that these things started becoming quite sensuous. Devotion to their god(s) growing into desire, ascetic practices fuelling martyr complexes, self-inflicted suffering bringing actual pleasure... I imagine such a group of priestess could easily be hijacted by Slaanesh in the end...

BTW. Speaking of scary religious practices, I keep thinking of Sigvald being the "Geld-Prince" and the actual meaning of that term. And how there was a character in Grant Morrison's The Invisibles who was named "Mr. Geld" and who was made, uhm, quite anatomically-deficient by the demonic being he worshipped...

... maybe I'll shut up now 😵

On 3/25/2021 at 12:58 PM, Enoby said:

Unfortunately GW has a tendency to write chaos as very one dimensional (esp in codexes and battletomes), so you'll get your Nurgle characters called Glothox Boilbeard and your Khorne characters called Skaroth Skulltaker and they'll behave exactly how they sound. These kind of characters are usually impossible to emotionally connect to because they're utterly ridiculous. They're nothing like a real human and come off as a video game grunt.

Thankfully, for our own armies, we can be a bit more nuanced. For example, using that piety background above, you could have a priestess with a perfectly normal name (let's called her Josephine Delores) who joined the church initially not out of devotion, but because she saw it as a force of good in the world. She couldn't sit by as people were injured and so devoted her life to helping them. When the church was corrupted, Josephine did not take part in the sacrifice and instead offered herself forward to take the place of one of them. They accepted her offer to allow one of the younger "heretics" to go free in place of severe corporal punishment. As she was being lashed and branded, she found herself relishing the experience - not because she was getting off to the pain, but because the feeling of martyrdom was exilerating. She had offered her life in place of another's, and though she was not killed, that feeling of being a saviour was intoxicating. There are a lot of directions you could take with this character, and most of them treat her as a human being rather than a parody.

Again, nice! Thank you

On 3/25/2021 at 1:18 PM, pnkdth said:

To me Slaanesh stands out among the rest. You could create a person who take "end justifies the means" way too far. That person wants to do good but end up working only to that specific good at the detriment of all others (which creates enemies and competitors). As this behaviour develops you can imagine all kinds of dark deeds "for the greater good."

Slaanesh can also be quite subtle, i.e. have an outward appearance of beauty and adoration for X or Y reason yet is ugly as sin underneath the skin. With your idea of piety, the followers of your Slaaneshi sect could very well view them as glorious angels and righteous avengers made manifest through their purity of heart and belief. Taking it further, this could send them on a crusade where they forcibly bring people in (it is for their own good!) because how could you not see the glorious and righteous message? ONLY THE HERETIC! and so on. Kind of makes me think of the Shadow over Innsmouth and the esoteric order of Dagon (H.P Lovecraft mythos). Like Enoby suggests, a messenger of the gods bringing new fortune. Why else would they be sheltered if not because of our faithful hearts? 

I like to toy around with positive traits and great deeds and then how could this be corrupted into something wicked. Dark Eldar (or Drukhari) is an example of this being turned up to 11 and an interesting approach. How far will you push yourself to get what you desire while silencing the voice of your conscience? How long till it stops talking and you become someone you never could have imagined.

I admit I like the Drukhari.

One question regarding your idea: wouldn't such Slaaneshi cultists be at odds with some others groups of Hedonites? If they see themselves as agents of righteousness, would they tolerate someone like Glutos? Whose actions cannot really be justified by righteousness of any kind?

Not sure here: are all Hedonites supposed to be tolerate each other (aside from persona rivarlies), or can they have... dogmatic disputes?

And on another note...

One idea I have for my potential Hedonites army is inspired by the vignette in the Slaanesh write-up in the the AoS 2.0 core rulebook. It's this nice bit about a noblewoman observing the invading Slaanesh forces with fascination, seeing them as colourful knights etc. It's something I could run with: the idea of a young princess or queen who lived in some stuffy, uptight and boring kingdom... and when the Hedonites came, she was initially enamoured with their strong emotions, unusual clothes etc. So, she ended up joining them - without really knowing what she was getting herself into: a mad lifestyle of debauchery, extreme sensations, sex, degradation etc.

Fast-forward a decade or so. The former princess / queen is now a Shardspeaker leading her own faction of Hedonites. But she's not fully evil, not in a "bwahaha!" way at least. She's mostly... damaged. And not necessarily truly happy with how all of this turned out to be. But at the same time, she cannot leave, because she doesn't fit with normal people anymore: after being put through the whole pincery meatgrinder of depravity, she doesn't really have much of decency or healthy emotions left. The whole experience really changed her. So, she remains a Hedonite - not because she truly likes it (although, on some level, she *does*), but because she's unable to live differently anymore.

What do you think?

[Enoby]

9 hours ago, PiotrW said:

One question regarding your idea: wouldn't such Slaaneshi cultists be at odds with some others groups of Hedonites? If they see themselves as agents of righteousness, would they tolerate someone like Glutos? Whose actions cannot really be justified by righteousness of any kind?

They would be, but many groups of Hedonites hate one another - seeing their own form of excess as superior and the others as dullards That's kind of the idea behind the Invaders Host - three generals of different armies hate each other's guts but work together because they have to. 

In Sigvald's Broken Realms story, one of the first thoughts he had upon meeting Glutos was how he wanted to kill Glutos. On the other hand, I think Slaanesh groups often (though not always) work better together on the in group (so within their own army) than other chaos factions. 

9 hours ago, PiotrW said:

What do you think?

I really like the idea I think you're best going along with this semi sympathetic character who's found themselves way out of their depth. It kind of reminds me a bit of Dechala, who was kidnapped by a Slaaneshi Lord to be his wife against her will, but she became more enamoured with the Slaaneshi way that she demanded her freedom and fled. My memory may fail me, but I think the Lord demanded Slaanesh give her back to him, and Slaanesh basically told him to know his place and gave Dechala a power boost so he could never have her again (she's a daemon prince in AoS but I think just a super powerful chaos lord in WHFB). 

I think, narratively, reluctant characters work best to humanise chaos. Rather than having some crazy person jump in to torturing people immediately, an internal debate on whether that was really what they wanted is more interesting.

Also, fyi, I believe the character you mentioned in the AoS 2 rule book actually got a lore update in our battletome, and she now leads the Knights that invaded her home :) 

Edited March 27, 2021 by Enoby

[pnkdth]

9 hours ago, PiotrW said:

I admit I like the Drukhari.

One question regarding your idea: wouldn't such Slaaneshi cultists be at odds with some others groups of Hedonites? If they see themselves as agents of righteousness, would they tolerate someone like Glutos? Whose actions cannot really be justified by righteousness of any kind?

Not sure here: are all Hedonites supposed to be tolerate each other (aside from persona rivarlies), or can they have... dogmatic disputes?

And on another note...

One idea I have for my potential Hedonites army is inspired by the vignette in the Slaanesh write-up in the the AoS 2.0 core rulebook. It's this nice bit about a noblewoman observing the invading Slaanesh forces with fascination, seeing them as colourful knights etc. It's something I could run with: the idea of a young princess or queen who lived in some stuffy, uptight and boring kingdom... and when the Hedonites came, she was initially enamoured with their strong emotions, unusual clothes etc. So, she ended up joining them - without really knowing what she was getting herself into: a mad lifestyle of debauchery, extreme sensations, sex, degradation etc.

Fast-forward a decade or so. The former princess / queen is now a Shardspeaker leading her own faction of Hedonites. But she's not fully evil, not in a "bwahaha!" way at least. She's mostly... damaged. And not necessarily truly happy with how all of this turned out to be. But at the same time, she cannot leave, because she doesn't fit with normal people anymore: after being put through the whole pincery meatgrinder of depravity, she doesn't really have much of decency or healthy emotions left. The whole experience really changed her. So, she remains a Hedonite - not because she truly likes it (although, on some level, she *does*), but because she's unable to live differently anymore.

What do you think?

Yeah, I imagine it would. Vainglory and zealotry masquerading as righteousness and purity. Who could abide by such corrupted false prophets, after all? Solid motivation for taking over and converting other hedonites to their cause too.

I like your concept. "Evil" is not always so clear cut. I'm drawing parallells to substance abuse, as in she knows she should quit but the spiral she's on is ever steeper and downwards. Eventually she might fall completely but even then I find characters with a flaw, relatable/tragic story behind them more compelling. Basically if we can empathise we can become invested. Who's to say she can't to a little good here and there, for example.

[Sorrow]

I will use of of my very first posts on this forum, for this topic is very interesting.

I have been in WHFB/40K for almost 18 years. Chaos player first and foremost. Managed to gather pretty much every Chaos lore book out there.  It is very clear that Slaanesh has never been GW favorite god, so to speak. Nurgle and Tzeentch have a coherent philosophy and I would even use word theology for them. Khorne is relatively straightforward. Of all Chaos gods, Slaanesh is the only one of infinite possibilities, which is quite paradoxical given how Slaanesh has been treated in WHFB/40K/AOS.  That is to say, Slaanesh has been the neglected one since day one. Over the years, I read and saw explorations of Slaanesh by various fans and while most were below average, some were excellent. That is the thing with Slaanesh, a good dosage of creativity is required to truly make Slaanesh shine.

I did not pull that perfume/fragrance idea out of nothing. Years ago, I read a blog where one woman was writing a incredible lore for existing but also completely new daemons and mortals, with accompanying artwork for each hero, unit and monster. In her own words, she took a concept, in this case, the olfactory sense, and explored it in context of Slaanesh. I curse myself for not saving her lore and art, for she deleted he r blog and I was never able to find it again.

But to give a example that all of you can read right now.  A Slaaneshi Kurnoth: http://hgpowell.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-woods-of-bloody-thorns-slaaneshs.html

Slaanesh is a deity of everything, for everything can be taken to excess. 

[pnkdth]

20 hours ago, Sorrow said:

I will use of of my very first posts on this forum, for this topic is very interesting.

I have been in WHFB/40K for almost 18 years. Chaos player first and foremost. Managed to gather pretty much every Chaos lore book out there.  It is very clear that Slaanesh has never been GW favorite god, so to speak. Nurgle and Tzeentch have a coherent philosophy and I would even use word theology for them. Khorne is relatively straightforward. Of all Chaos gods, Slaanesh is the only one of infinite possibilities, which is quite paradoxical given how Slaanesh has been treated in WHFB/40K/AOS.  That is to say, Slaanesh has been the neglected one since day one. Over the years, I read and saw explorations of Slaanesh by various fans and while most were below average, some were excellent. That is the thing with Slaanesh, a good dosage of creativity is required to truly make Slaanesh shine.

I did not pull that perfume/fragrance idea out of nothing. Years ago, I read a blog where one woman was writing a incredible lore for existing but also completely new daemons and mortals, with accompanying artwork for each hero, unit and monster. In her own words, she took a concept, in this case, the olfactory sense, and explored it in context of Slaanesh. I curse myself for not saving her lore and art, for she deleted he r blog and I was never able to find it again.

But to give a example that all of you can read right now.  A Slaaneshi Kurnoth: http://hgpowell.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-woods-of-bloody-thorns-slaaneshs.html

Slaanesh is a deity of everything, for everything can be taken to excess. 

A good reminder that you can create whatever you want to. There is no uniform shape an army must have (least of all Chaos). 

Another thought on the pious and faithful. How about a sect based on circles or rings? The outward visible ring is the honey to draw people in, populated by genuinely passionate people who are day by day getting corrupted and pulled into the next rung, on and on it goes (mimicking Slaanesh fortress) till you eventually get to a point of outright violence and bloodshed. Each ring keeps the illusion alive with the public figurehead being little more than a puppet being manipulated through praise and adoration. Fresh lambs to the slaughter or hedonites to the battlefield. 

[Twisted Firaun]

On 3/24/2021 at 1:43 PM, PiotrW said:

The subject of Slaaneshi philosophy, army concepts etc. really interests me - and I didn't want to keep hijacking the main Hedonites Discussion thread. So, I thought I'll continue the discussion in a separate thread...

@Yoid @CeleFAZE @ssetr @TheArborealWalrus @Enoby thank you for sharing your concepts! All of them are inspirational.

I was wondering: if Slaanesh is about all kinds of excess, could there a Slaaneshi cult based on piety? I can kind of see a group of ascetics moving toward more and more fanatical practices, without realizing they are actually getting a lot of pleasure from all the self-mortification and intense prayers. Not sure how this group would move toward summoning daemons that ride chariots that cut people into ribbons, though...

In general, my vision of a Hedonites army is pretty basic: that of a weird-scented horde full of sensual bodies, teeth, pincers and blades, traversing the land in a fast-moving cavalcade and shredding everything in their path. Not sure how to connect with that emotionally, though...

(I have the same problem with WH40K's Deathguard. I like them and I'm slowly building a joint "normal" Chaos Marines / Deathguard army there. Their new codex is... very atmospheric with all these mentions of half-rotten Marines, clouds of flies etc. But I can't actually come up with potential personalities for them - how could anyone with even a portion of a brain left actually worship Nurgle..?)

I love your idea, it makes for interesting conversions and seems like it could happen in a black library novel. 
 

As for your opinion on the Deathguard, I also agree to an extent. Yes it can be hard to understand how anyone could want to worship a walking ball of pus, but what most of us can’t wrap around our heads is the fact that Nurgle is not really only the god of plagues, but of despair. Nurgle is the voice in the back of your head telling you to kill yourself, he’s the sensation a drowning man feels when he runs out of air, he’s the guy patting you on the back saying everything will be alright when you are in the trenches and you find out your friend didn’t survive the last bombardment and is being eaten by rats. The novels capture that to an extent, but even they mostly focus on the plagues he unleashes. My own DG army is nautical lore based, following the will of the a greater daemon known as The Drowned Rat(who may or may not be made up of every famous pirate), and focus on destroying life support systems before they board the enemies ship, offering salvation to any who beg for it(that salvation being turned into a corpse/draugr).

[Sorrow]

@Loyal Son of Khemri

Nurgle is, first and foremost, a god of life.

A god of endless rebirth. 

[Sorrow]

By the way, I have a recommendation for all fellow Hedonites here, watch the Hannibal series.

A most delightful exploration of sophisticated Slaaneshi worship and philosophy.

[PiotrW]

On 3/27/2021 at 11:56 AM, Enoby said:

They would be, but many groups of Hedonites hate one another - seeing their own form of excess as superior and the others as dullards That's kind of the idea behind the Invaders Host - three generals of different armies hate each other's guts but work together because they have to. 

True. I think I'll be using Invaders as my army Host - with two generals: one human (the aforementioned Shardspeaker princess) and one daemon (a Keeper of Secrets). Although with the caveat that these two don't actually *hate* each other... they just aren't always on the same page. Also, with both of them being powerful personalities, they need to be careful not to confuse their troopers in battle ("Archers, fire at will!" - "Sssssss! Flanking maneuvers!" - "I said: fire at will! The Keeper's talking to the daemons, not you!" - "Actually, I was talking to the archers, mortal! Ssssssssss!!!" - "Wait, what? Leave my archers alone!" - "Ssssssss! This command structure doesn't work at all!!!")

Of course, I don't actually want this to be an army with a jokey backstory... I kind of see these two characters as having some sort of stable and relatively  respectful (if not necessarily always easy) relationship - not romantic relationship, mind you. Relationship in a political / military / religious sense. Of course, I need to work out the Keeper's personality now...

On 3/27/2021 at 11:56 AM, Enoby said:

In Sigvald's Broken Realms story, one of the first thoughts he had upon meeting Glutos was how he wanted to kill Glutos.

... and he scored some points with me that way.

On 3/27/2021 at 11:56 AM, Enoby said:

I really like the idea I think you're best going along with this semi sympathetic character who's found themselves way out of their depth. It kind of reminds me a bit of Dechala, who was kidnapped by a Slaaneshi Lord to be his wife against her will, but she became more enamoured with the Slaaneshi way that she demanded her freedom and fled. My memory may fail me, but I think the Lord demanded Slaanesh give her back to him, and Slaanesh basically told him to know his place and gave Dechala a power boost so he could never have her again (she's a daemon prince in AoS but I think just a super powerful chaos lord in WHFB). 

Hmmmm... Dechala? Where could I read more about her? That's the first time I saw her mentioned...

On 3/27/2021 at 11:56 AM, Enoby said:

Also, fyi, I believe the character you mentioned in the AoS 2 rule book actually got a lore update in our battletome, and she now leads the Knights that invaded her home :) 

Okay, now you've given me a headache! I looked through the whole battletome (the new one) and I just don't see her mentioned?

On 3/27/2021 at 11:58 AM, pnkdth said:

I like your concept. "Evil" is not always so clear cut. I'm drawing parallells to substance abuse, as in she knows she should quit but the spiral she's on is ever steeper and downwards. Eventually she might fall completely but even then I find characters with a flaw, relatable/tragic story behind them more compelling. Basically if we can empathise we can become invested. Who's to say she can't to a little good here and there, for example.

Or, at least, to refrain from wanton destruction all the time...

I see this character as someone with the attitude of "Slaanesh *is* the true face of reality. It's not a necessarily a pleasant face, but a true face nevertheless". So, she follows the Slaaneshi lifestyle, but she also has this cynical side to her and, at times, she has this realization that her life is kind of disgusting...

On 3/27/2021 at 9:59 PM, Sorrow said:

But to give a example that all of you can read right now.  A Slaaneshi Kurnoth: http://hgpowell.blogspot.com/2014/05/the-woods-of-bloody-thorns-slaaneshs.html

Wow! That's... something... Another cool idea! Thanks for sharing

On 3/28/2021 at 8:06 PM, Loyal Son of Khemri said:

I love your idea, it makes for interesting conversions and seems like it could happen in a black library novel. 

*goes on the check on how you can make a Black Library submission*

*finds nothing*

*is confused*

On 3/29/2021 at 8:40 PM, Sorrow said:

By the way, I have a recommendation for all fellow Hedonites here, watch the Hannibal series.

A most delightful exploration of sophisticated Slaaneshi worship and philosophy.

Nice catch! I watched Hannibal, good show.

Of course, a more blatant inspiration would be the Hellraiser franchise...

[Enoby]

12 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Hmmmm... Dechala? Where could I read more about her? That's the first time I saw her mentioned.

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dechala_the_Denied_One#:~:text=Dechala%2C the Denied One.,Slaanesh in the Chaos Wastes.

You can read about her here, though most of my info came from Libre Chaotica Slaanesh so I don't know if there's any outdated info in that. 

There's also an AoS story you can find here: https://www.blacklibrary.com/audio/age-of-sigmar-audiobooks/hallowed-knights-the-denied.html

Though to be honest she's a bit generic in this one

12 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Okay, now you've given me a headache! I looked through the whole battletome (the new one) and I just don't see her mentioned?

I've given myself a headache too! I remember reading it, including thinking "oh that's cool they included her again" and also some of the wording. Either I had a very vivid dream or it was in another book, but I have no clue what book...  

[Sorrow]

@Enoby@PiotrW

Hmm, would that princess now be that leader of the Faultless Blades?

[Sorrow]

@PiotrW

Actually, regarding Hellraiser series, I would only recommend the book itself, the Hellbound Heart.  Plus first two movies, everything else is a shallow mockery of what Cenobites truly are. 

[pnkdth]

14 hours ago, PiotrW said:

 

Or, at least, to refrain from wanton destruction all the time...

I see this character as someone with the attitude of "Slaanesh *is* the true face of reality. It's not a necessarily a pleasant face, but a true face nevertheless". So, she follows the Slaaneshi lifestyle, but she also has this cynical side to her and, at times, she has this realization that her life is kind of disgusting...

 

Perhaps addiction was a poor analogy in this case. The more I hear about her she seems like the anti-hero who's wrapped up in a world of bad yet she consider it best that she maintain control because of dreading what a more corrupted individual might do in her stead. An archetype could someone like Raymond Reddington from The Blacklist. Connected and powerful yet show restraint, in part that she might think she's better than everyone but she still does partake. Adding in layers and motivation is a good idea, i.e. she did X to achieve Y but ended up with Z so now she has to... and so on.

Love how this thread turned out. More is more, as the Yngwie Malmsteen said. A great Slaaneshi worshipper, indeed, because you can always go faster and with more strings on your guitar.

[Urauloth]

*stomping a rusty, muddy boot onto the perfumed marble bounds of this Slaaneshi thread*

Not to derail anything here, but since someone mentioned the character of the Death Guard, it's worth noting that they're incredibly varied once you get past the shallow caricatures you tend to see when they crop up as jobbers in other people's storylines. Not only do all seven of the legion's companies have different outlooks and tendencies, there's a tremendous range of attitudes, theologies, philosophies and delusions among the ranks.

The answer to "why would anyone want to be a plaguemarine" is simple in a lot of cases - they didn't, they were transformed by the destroyer plague. Some of them have been driven mad by what they've become, while others see it as the ultimate proof of their legendary endurance. Some of them take great pride in Nurgle's blessing and lean hard into his cult, seeing him as a benevolent god and themselves as his altruistic messengers. Others are bitter about their transformed state and want to see everything else laid as low as they are. Still others are simply morose and depressive, resigned to their existence and the decay of everything in the galaxy - some of these believe that by visiting destruction on other worlds, they're helping others to accept the inevitable and freeing them from the falsehood of hope. Some don't care much about the galaxy at all any more and are completely obsessed with Nurgle's alchemical sciences and numerological arts. There's really a lot going on with the legion, and it reflects Nurgle factions in general. Attitudes to the Long War and to their father Mortarion are further divergences, and these can be severe enough that at least two warbands have split from the legion entirely.

Of course, people are drawn into Nurgle's worship all kinds of ways, and many serve him willingly. Both the 41st millennium and the Mortal Realms are harsh places, and a loving deity who cares for the lest of his servants has a powerful draw - even if his love manifests in unhealthy ways. The downtrodden and the desperate, who exist in the billions in the Emperor's galaxy, often suffer famine and disease already; propitiating the Lord of Decay offers them tangible relief from their woes which the distant Emperor never could, and perhaps the power to harness their miseries as vengeful weapons against their oppressors. Nurgle also promises opportunities for immortality and rebirth in his garden, albeit in ways that most would consider horrifying.

Of course, if you grew up on Eliathada or in certain parts of Ghyran, Nurgle is probably the only god you know, and all this is perfectly normal to you.

I highly, highly recommend reading The Lords of Silence, which is the only Black Library novel so far to give the Death Guard a fair shake. Even if you're not a XIV legion enthusiast, it's a very good look at servants of Nurgle generally. A very close-up look, if that's something you want.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Urauloth

[PiotrW]

11 hours ago, Enoby said:

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dechala_the_Denied_One#:~:text=Dechala%2C the Denied One.,Slaanesh in the Chaos Wastes.

You can read about her here, though most of my info came from Libre Chaotica Slaanesh so I don't know if there's any outdated info in that. 

There's also an AoS story you can find here: https://www.blacklibrary.com/audio/age-of-sigmar-audiobooks/hallowed-knights-the-denied.html

Though to be honest she's a bit generic in this one

I like her! I wish she was available for AoS... or someone similar. We could use a few HoS heroes more.

11 hours ago, Enoby said:

I've given myself a headache too! I remember reading it, including thinking "oh that's cool they included her again" and also some of the wording. Either I had a very vivid dream or it was in another book, but I have no clue what book...  

Her name is Vaela Angelica. I scoured the book but I can't find anyone with that name - or someone who could've been her... Hmmmm.

11 hours ago, Sorrow said:

Hmm, would that princess now be that leader of the Faultless Blades?

I checked, but no: that character's name is Zaresta Silverheart.

11 hours ago, Sorrow said:

Actually, regarding Hellraiser series, I would only recommend the book itself, the Hellbound Heart.  Plus first two movies, everything else is a shallow mockery of what Cenobites truly are. 

Oh, I fully agree. I consider HR1 and HR2 the only true and canon movies. HR3 I consider semi-canon, because it's silly and pointless - still, tolerable. The rest is some sort of nonsense.

And yeah, the original novella is probably the most Slaaneshi part of the series, with the decadent aspect of the Cenobites truly noticeable.

9 hours ago, pnkdth said:

Perhaps addiction was a poor analogy in this case. The more I hear about her she seems like the anti-hero who's wrapped up in a world of bad yet she consider it best that she maintain control because of dreading what a more corrupted individual might do in her stead. An archetype could someone like Raymond Reddington from The Blacklist. Connected and powerful yet show restraint, in part that she might think she's better than everyone but she still does partake. Adding in layers and motivation is a good idea, i.e. she did X to achieve Y but ended up with Z so now she has to... and so on.

Interesting observation! Something to think about as I work on her...

8 hours ago, Urauloth said:

*stomping a rusty, muddy boot onto the perfumed marble bounds of this Slaaneshi thread*

Hello there!

Thank you for the input re: Death Guard. Any suggestions on where I could read on the difference between Plague Companies etc.? The new codex is annoying sparse in that regard.

As for the novel you mentioned: I'm curious now Although I've never tried reading any Black Library fiction. Not sure of the quality?

[Enoby]

I was just thinking, in relation to this thread as we've talked a lot about Slaaneshi characters, but who would we hope out of our existing characters to get a novel written about them?

I'd actually quite like Glutos, if they did him well - they could easily make him boring so I'm a bit tentative with this suggestion, but I like the idea of a chaos lord who was a reluctant chosen, and I'd like to see if he was still kind of reluctant now - or if he had any introspective thoughts at all on his current position. I think he could be a really interesting character, but I worry they'll just make him a Skeletor-tier cartoon villain

[pnkdth]

16 hours ago, Enoby said:

I was just thinking, in relation to this thread as we've talked a lot about Slaaneshi characters, but who would we hope out of our existing characters to get a novel written about them?

Glutos, in a way seems like a character with a completed character arc. He's eternally damned to be Slaanesh's hungry boi. A tale of his becoming might be more interesting unless they could come up a way for his to have a rivalry towards another character from another realm/faction. I could see Nurgle being a potential threat, tricking him with particularly nasty new meals angering both Slaanesh and Glutos. His hunger could also bring with a story of a particular obsession towards X or Y. 

Everything I've heard of Sigvald so far has gone too far into being a pretty one note character. His response to everything seem to be "how dare you speak to be in this way?!" That said, there are ways to making him more interesting and expanding on his relationship with Slaanesh. Perhaps one day elevating him to true daemonhood. He's already already on that path, after all. That would require more attention than GW probably is going to bother with (new mini for one).

Another take is having sort-of-named daemons interacting with mortals and established characters alike. The Infernal Enrapturess/Contorted Epitome got that Hellraiser-vibe going on. 

[Enoby]

34 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Glutos, in a way seems like a character with a completed character arc. He's eternally damned to be Slaanesh's hungry boi. A tale of his becoming might be more interesting unless they could come up a way for his to have a rivalry towards another character from another realm/faction. I could see Nurgle being a potential threat, tricking him with particularly nasty new meals angering both Slaanesh and Glutos. His hunger could also bring with a story of a particular obsession towards X or Y. 

Yeah, I agree that an origins story would be much more interesting than a current events one. A bit like Korgus Khul's novel, or Sigvald's old novel. To be honest, it's hard to write a chaos novel about someone who's already fallen fully as there's much less room for development. 

36 minutes ago, pnkdth said:

Another take is having sort-of-named daemons interacting with mortals and established characters alike. The Infernal Enrapturess/Contorted Epitome got that Hellraiser-vibe going on. 

I think something like this could be really interesting - something about corruption, even strung together through an overarcing narrative across many mortal storylines that converge. 

 

[pnkdth]

17 hours ago, Enoby said:

Yeah, I agree that an origins story would be much more interesting than a current events one. A bit like Korgus Khul's novel, or Sigvald's old novel. To be honest, it's hard to write a chaos novel about someone who's already fallen fully as there's much less room for development. 

I think something like this could be really interesting - something about corruption, even strung together through an overarcing narrative across many mortal storylines that converge. 

 

If they did expand on the going-ons in Slaaneshi warbands and such it could be really interesting. They can't always be rolling around in a full set of armour or constantly fighting. I'd imagine something like that would get really dull for a hedonite. Politics and drama, sharing more stuff pertaining to the structure of cults and war bands, that kind of stuff. If they'd use someone like Sigvald or Glutos as a vehicle for that it could be neat. 2+ tough made a video of an interaction between Siggie and Glutos too which (story-wise) left some to be desired though there were hints of some interesting intrigue and banter.

Love the idea of a converging storyline. 

[PiotrW]

On 4/5/2021 at 10:36 PM, Enoby said:

I was just thinking, in relation to this thread as we've talked a lot about Slaaneshi characters, but who would we hope out of our existing characters to get a novel written about them?

I'd actually quite like Glutos, if they did him well - they could easily make him boring so I'm a bit tentative with this suggestion, but I like the idea of a chaos lord who was a reluctant chosen, and I'd like to see if he was still kind of reluctant now - or if he had any introspective thoughts at all on his current position. I think he could be a really interesting character, but I worry they'll just make him a Skeletor-tier cartoon villain

The problem with a Glutos novel is two-fold, I think.

Firstly, as @pnkdth noted, his most obvious character is his origin. I think a novel about his current situation is possible, but that would require bringing some ambiguity to the character. He *could* work as this half-insane glutton attended by maniacs and hopelessly trapped by his curse... That would go against GW's current descriptions of this character, though, which seem to suggest that, at the present day, Glutos is an gleefully evil character. I guess you could try to reconcile these two approaches, making him someone who is embraces Chaos while still having some internal torment... But that would be tricky to write...

... as (and this the second problem) Glutos' addiction is cannibalism. Any book about him would have to dig into it. And... this really is a heavy subject. I can imagine BL novels have some dark stuff, but a novel about a cannibal? That's as dark as it gets. And very difficult to write without making it offensive and disgusting.  Especially if you tried to go with Glutos being a willing (if tormented) cannibal. Not sure if GW / BL would risk publishing something like that?

As for other Slaaneshi characters: I think they could try doing something with Syll'Eske, they are an interesting pair. I can see a story about one of the Enrapturesses, but - considering the gruesome nature of what they do - I'm not sure what else you could do with them that would go beyond a transformation story of an "instrument". Plus, this kind of story would come off as Hellraiser fanfiction...

Contorted Epitome... hm. I honestly not sure what kind of story you could tell about them. It's just a mirror with two attendants...

Other possibilities: The Masque (if there was nothing done with it before). And if you get me a BL commission, I'll happily write something about my Shardspeaker

[pnkdth]

16 hours ago, PiotrW said:

As for other Slaaneshi characters: I think they could try doing something with Syll'Eske, they are an interesting pair. I can see a story about one of the Enrapturesses, but - considering the gruesome nature of what they do - I'm not sure what else you could do with them that would go beyond a transformation story of an "instrument". Plus, this kind of story would come off as Hellraiser fanfiction...

Contorted Epitome... hm. I honestly not sure what kind of story you could tell about them. It's just a mirror with two attendants...

What I'm seeing with the Infernal Enrapturess is a story about corrupting a society or community. It can take different forms and has been responsible for leading many to their doom or on a path to glory as a hedonite. You can also make more individuals stories about <insert person here> follows X obsession into madness. Then either add a horrible twist of fate of becoming a piece of what that individual was obsessing about. I also don't mind hellraiser-fanfic if it is good but you can also have Glutos-style stories as the person in the story goes deeper and deeper. 

When it comes to the various daemonic leaders or heralds they're all daemonettes serving a different roles. They're not actually different kinds of daemons. The Contorted Epitome, for instance, is a weaponised mirror. Handled by two herald attendants. You could delve more deeply into the creator of the mirror, you could have an individual seek a prized possession, or it could just be a particularly vain individual getting lured in and trapped by the mirror. Slaanesh does seem to like to hand out punishment too in cruel and poetic ways. 

The shardspeaker itself is interesting and there's a lot of cool ways you can go with it. Like what you're doing, for instance.

[Sorrow]

On 4/1/2021 at 4:01 PM, Urauloth said:

*stomping a rusty, muddy boot onto the perfumed marble bounds of this Slaaneshi thread*

Not to derail anything here, but since someone mentioned the character of the Death Guard, it's worth noting that they're incredibly varied once you get past the shallow caricatures you tend to see when they crop up as jobbers in other people's storylines. Not only do all seven of the legion's companies have different outlooks and tendencies, there's a tremendous range of attitudes, theologies, philosophies and delusions among the ranks.

The answer to "why would anyone want to be a plaguemarine" is simple in a lot of cases - they didn't, they were transformed by the destroyer plague. Some of them have been driven mad by what they've become, while others see it as the ultimate proof of their legendary endurance. Some of them take great pride in Nurgle's blessing and lean hard into his cult, seeing him as a benevolent god and themselves as his altruistic messengers. Others are bitter about their transformed state and want to see everything else laid as low as they are. Still others are simply morose and depressive, resigned to their existence and the decay of everything in the galaxy - some of these believe that by visiting destruction on other worlds, they're helping others to accept the inevitable and freeing them from the falsehood of hope. Some don't care much about the galaxy at all any more and are completely obsessed with Nurgle's alchemical sciences and numerological arts. There's really a lot going on with the legion, and it reflects Nurgle factions in general. Attitudes to the Long War and to their father Mortarion are further divergences, and these can be severe enough that at least two warbands have split from the legion entirely.

Of course, people are drawn into Nurgle's worship all kinds of ways, and many serve him willingly. Both the 41st millennium and the Mortal Realms are harsh places, and a loving deity who cares for the lest of his servants has a powerful draw - even if his love manifests in unhealthy ways. The downtrodden and the desperate, who exist in the billions in the Emperor's galaxy, often suffer famine and disease already; propitiating the Lord of Decay offers them tangible relief from their woes which the distant Emperor never could, and perhaps the power to harness their miseries as vengeful weapons against their oppressors. Nurgle also promises opportunities for immortality and rebirth in his garden, albeit in ways that most would consider horrifying.

Of course, if you grew up on Eliathada or in certain parts of Ghyran, Nurgle is probably the only god you know, and all this is perfectly normal to you.

I highly, highly recommend reading The Lords of Silence, which is the only Black Library novel so far to give the Death Guard a fair shake. Even if you're not a XIV legion enthusiast, it's a very good look at servants of Nurgle generally. A very close-up look, if that's something you want.

Lords of Silence is a amazing novel, probably among the best explorations of Nurgle yet. I also recommend Tome of Decay for philosophy of Nurgle.

I must add to what you wrote, Nurgle is a deity of decay, death and rebirth. That rebirth part is crucial. He loves life in all its forms. He is not Nagash.

For example, Typhus of Death Guard often uses "God of endless rebirth" when referring to Nurgle.