The Lumienth waste design space

[Neverchosen]

36 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Bullgors are bull-based.  Dragon-ogors are dragon based.  Cockatrices are....well, you get the idea.  Not just goats!

Also I think the Aelves of the Lumineth may be a little Hindu inspired, the runes kinda look like Sanskrit at a glance, and the cows.

That is why I love the models. I really want to paint and model some heroes after the Dashavatara. I feel like the Lumineth are outside of my price range but I am tempted at buying some legacy high elves off of a friend and using them as the base for a Lumineth force.

[Sabotage!]

16 hours ago, Baron Klatz said:

Case in point: people complain about a lack of human mortals but we've been getting them non-stop since Age of Sigmar started. They're just been mostly on chaos' side. 😛

It's intentional though, the only Order human model we got was the War Priest who came from a tribe just like all the chaos forces do. Because we're still in the dark ages of the Mortal Realms and life for humans is quick and harsh even inside the safer new cities.

Chaos humans can get around this by being blessed by chaos for longevity or twisted immortality. Order humans not so much, we've had plenty of heroic humans between the Realmgate Wars and The Seeds of Hope but those were centuries ago and they're all dead by age now.

Demigod armies of Stormcast and magic races of Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth and Deepkin aren't weighed down by that so the the lore can keep moving forward while humans stay on the sidelines for now until the realm tribes regrow into new powerful nations themselves (and likely humans changed by the magic of their native realms to give them life boons as chaos humans get)

This is a ridiculous point. Yes, we have been getting plenty of Chaos humans (and they are awesome....as someone who plays Chaos), but Order has only had one human miniature made since the launch of AoS. And you say that life is harsh and quick for humans in the mortal realms and say that's an example as why we don't have any new Order humans? To counter that.....we have an entire faction of Goblins....for which whom life is harder and quick (and Orruks for that matter too), and humans are just as like to die in one of the cities as an elf or dwarf. We have even seen artwork of mortal humans fighting alongside stormcast that weren't from 16th century Germany (the art was the banner for Warscroll builder for a long time).

Even if a human lifespan isn't as long as a Fyreslayer or Deepkin it doesn't mean that the army couldn't have unique heroes (or maybe go with a novel idea of an army without unique heroes).....this was done just fine in WHF.

TL:DR The mortal realms is a huge an not very well explored area. GW can literally make any type of faction they want. The reason their aren't new Order humans in AoS is because no one on the design team wants to work on them. But from a lore perspective it makes little to no sense as Order aligned humans would greatly outnumber all the Fyreslayers, Deepkin, DoK, Stormcast, etc. combined. It would be like 40k without the Imperial Guard (though GW's trying their best to make that range of models obsolete).

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, Sabotage! said:

To counter that.....we have an entire faction of Goblins....for which whom life is harder and quick (and Orruks for that matter too),

They get a handwave there because we don't know their life expectancy.  That's always a teased hint that "greenskins don't get older, only bigger".  So even the average  Grot/orruk hero can be said to live centuries by virtues of being fungus and Waaagh magic/belief.(and indeed, Gordrakk and the Loonking have)

That's more my point, without a unique leader to lead them and build lore around while not dying through the ages, an army isn't going to happen yet.  Like say if people saw their model of the Candlemen priest died in lore because more than a century passed after his God-beast 2016 campaign and now he'd get no more narrative focus or opportunities to get new rules with even White Dwarf. They'd feel robbed and certainly future buyers won't get an outdated model with a setting & game moving on without him.

1 hour ago, Sabotage! said:

We have even seen artwork of mortal humans fighting alongside stormcast that weren't from 16th century Germany

Oh certainly!  I loved their brimmed spike helmets and the novels are full of human armies fighting to survive, be it the Glymmsforge black-cloaked guards with their magic rifles and silver shields or the Jercho hoplites with their leather armor and monster bone weapons.

I hope they come in as future Freeguild someday. Even if their leaders never get around the mortality problem then at least Cities and Warcry gives us plenty of examples that they can have new unique Aelven, Stormcast or Duardin leaders take them into battle.(Stormcast leaders would make sense as most of the major city armies are founded by them anyway)

1 hour ago, Sabotage! said:

The reason their aren't new Order humans in AoS is because no one on the design team wants to work on them.

Oh nah, like you said we already see designs in the artwork and the Corebook has examples of each realm human in the artwork.

They just didn't fit at the beginning because the Age of Chaos meant too many human hero models would die as the ages moved on and now with their designs finally leaking out in 2018 it'll probably be the usual 3 year wait for the armies to go from concept to model(so 2021-2022) and fit with the order human cities finally regrowing from the twisted ruins of chaos.

TL:DR, I'm not saying Order human armies won't happen i'm saying we got to wait for them to when the narrative & production time is right.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[stratigo]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:46 AM, Wired4War said:

They left themselves a lot of room to grow with this army. There are 3 other elements to explore, and another 4 great nations based on martial (Tyrionic) instead of magical (Teclian) prowess. With other limited armies like Fyreslayers and Ironjaws, you don't get any sense from the books and lore that there are many more units other than what is presented. It's sort of like Stormcast, we know there are a bunch more chambers down the road.

 

I mean, as a KO player and long time dwarf player, I am a tad disgruntled by GW going "Here's your handful of warscrolls dwarf players. They're all you'll ever have" and then go to the high elves and go "here's maybe a quarter of your army, look forward to being more fully fleshed out in the future"

 

And also aethquartz.

[Phasteon]

1 hour ago, stratigo said:

 

I mean, as a KO player and long time dwarf player, I am a tad disgruntled by GW going "Here's your handful of warscrolls dwarf players. They're all you'll ever have" and then go to the high elves and go "here's maybe a quarter of your army, look forward to being more fully fleshed out in the future"

 

And also aethquartz.

We even got artworks of bigger ships, the name Zonbek was dropped for defensive lighthouse turrets .... GW could easily design more KO kits if they wanted to. 

[stratigo]

They could, yes. But will they? I... don't think so

[LuminethMage]

10 hours ago, stratigo said:

 

I mean, as a KO player and long time dwarf player, I am a tad disgruntled by GW going "Here's your handful of warscrolls dwarf players. They're all you'll ever have" and then go to the high elves and go "here's maybe a quarter of your army, look forward to being more fully fleshed out in the future"

 

And also aethquartz.

And as former HE player we “paid”for all of this with having made almost the whole old range of HE obsolete. You liked dragons, heavy cavalry, horse archers, chariots, bolt throwers, White Lions, Sword Masters, eagles and so on, well tough luck, they are all gone, with nearly zero possibility of ever really getting touched in the lore anymore. 

Instead you got bulls and the possibility of more to come after waiting five years to finally have a new HE army. 

I like the Lumineth, but many HE players would have been happy with the treatment the dwarfs or DE got. It all depends what you personally like more, but it doesn’t mean one approach is better than the other. 

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

And as former HE player we “paid”for all of this with having made almost the whole old range of HE obsolete. You liked dragons, heavy cavalry, horse archers, chariots, bolt throwers, White Lions, Sword Masters, eagles and so on, well tough luck, they are all gone, with nearly zero possibility of ever really getting touched in the lore anymore. 

Instead you got bulls and the possibility of more to come after waiting five years to finally have a new HE army. 

I like the Lumineth, but many HE players would have been happy with the treatment the dwarfs or DE got. It all depends what you personally like more, but it doesn’t mean one approach is better than the other. 

You mean like miners, quarrelers, warriors, artillery (all dwarf artillery is gone), kings carried on shields and priests on anvils? If you discount Cities, there are no pre AoS dwarf kits left.

Sure, old high elves are reduced to three units instead of four, three heroes and gyro's, but you have easy proxies in the lumineth.

Your swordsmen or white lions are alarith. Your spears and bows are, well, spears and bows, your cav is cav, Eltharion can be the light of Eltharion, the cathaller is just a mage, the other one also (though could take some converting to be tied to stone more), a mage on a dragon can easily stand in for a mage flying next to a sphynx thing. The only thing that needs some work is the big cows. Eldar constructs may provide ideas here.

You did lose the chariots, lions and artillery, but they may still get to that.

Meanwhile, for dwarves, that doesn't work. They have some options in Cities, but, well, longevity of the faction remains cloudy until GW makes plastic for it and you have the same options for elves there (just use dark elf statlines).

Kharadron are lovely, and you can use dwarf bodies to double the value you get from a box of Arkanauts and Thunderers, but that's it, there's no way of conserving their look at and still be recognisable as the unit they were meant to become.

Fyreslayers only work for slayers.

[LuminethMage]

It all depends, do you like KO, then you are fine. You liked Slayers, great, you had years to play with them, while there was no new HE faction.

If you as a HE player actually always wanted to play as elf vampire pirates, great! You like Lumineth, like myself, also great, you are fine. And it might even get better, who knows? At the moment it’s a very small range with a lot of holes in the roster.

If you liked dragons, eagles, artillery, heavy cavalry, and the general style of the former HE, you can’t really use most of the Lumineth for stand ins, without an awful lot of work. Not really great right now. KO and Fyreslayers also resemble parts of the old dwarfs. You say artillery is gone, but the KO vessels are artillery. It’s just done in a different way. 

Yeah, in a few years, maybe Lumineth encompass all that was lost, and city dwarfs are gone without being replaced by anything. That’s not the situation right now though, I can also cherry pick out of things that aren’t reality yet to make a case how much worse things are for elves. That Grungni faction that’s going to replace Dispossed at some point has such a large range and is done in a much better way then the Lumineth. They’ll get artillery right from the start! 

GW does all the factions in different ways, that sucks for some dwarf players, it sucks for some human player and it’s sucks for some elf players, and while others love it. It’s hard to make a case that one side is treated better, and it alway looks different from which point in time you argue. Right when CoS came out, there weren’t any Lumineth, and most of your HE models were deleted from competitive play. In a few months maybe they’ll expand the Lumineth further and more former HE player will be happy. 

I really think these comparisons are so subjective to make them pointless. I’m sure there will be more for the dwarfs coming, as well as for the elves. All in all it’s pretty exciting right now. 

 

[stratigo]

9 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

And as former HE player we “paid”for all of this with having made almost the whole old range of HE obsolete. You liked dragons, heavy cavalry, horse archers, chariots, bolt throwers, White Lions, Sword Masters, eagles and so on, well tough luck, they are all gone, with nearly zero possibility of ever really getting touched in the lore anymore. 

Instead you got bulls and the possibility of more to come after waiting five years to finally have a new HE army. 

I like the Lumineth, but many HE players would have been happy with the treatment the dwarfs or DE got. It all depends what you personally like more, but it doesn’t mean one approach is better than the other. 

Except the cow warriors and the mootain (and new teclis), all the new lumineth stuff has old HE analogues. Spearmen, archers, silverhelms and dragon princes still work.

As a dwarf player, no I'm not happy with what GW did to my army, and no CoS is not a replacement, it's an attempt to get me to buy more older models because the ones I have do not work as an army. 

I feel for HE players, and, like, I still feel for them. But boy has GW always seemed to love elves more than dwarves. Their releases are more lavish, and their lore more impactful to the setting.