Pure Dwarfs CoS list question

[mr.wildist]

Hello everybody.

I have a question related to list balance regarding dwarfs. During this strange and "stationary" summer I have started a project with my sister. I picked some FeC miniatures and she took our 10 year old dwarves we had gathering dust in the shed. We started making simple lists with which we could go slowly painting and playing as we completed units, that way we could learn to play from simple to complex and always knowing our units gradually. The thing is I got the Skirmish and Path to Glory books from a couple of years ago and I trusted them regarding balance, so my first list has been an Archregent, 10 ghouls and a Varghulf, while hers it's been a Warden King, a Cogsmith, 10 plain Ironbreakers (no standard bearer nor musician) and a lone Gyrocopter. We have played a couple of games (no realms chosen, the easiest battleplan, no artifacts, no grand courts and whatsoever) and the result is quite evident: I wipe her out from the table so easy it is not fun nor for her nor for me as I want it to be as challenging as possible.

I have realised that the Path to glory balance is not that balanced, as my list was 500pts and hers around 340pts (there's a varghulf of difference which is quite a lot in this kind of small games). My questions reads as follows: Is it possible to have an equal and relatively fair game only using dwarves? I'm okay with dropping the Archregent and changing it for a Ghoul King, but my main concern is that even then my army looks like it "does a lot more" (magic things, command abilities, etc) so I'm not trying to weaken my lists but to spice her dwarves a little bit (interesting combos or key units we are not aware of even if they're not 100% dwarves).

I would appreciate a lot if you could help us with some advice as we are still trying to float in this ocean of warscrolls and list building. (We have almost the whole range of the old dwarves, so we can proxy anything)

Many thanks!

[flamingwalnut]

Dwarves are awesome and can be super great, but yeah, you've hit a few odd snags.

First, yeah, Path to Glory is almost always the OPPOSITE of balance. Some of the Path to Glory lists are just....all sorts of wonky. Like, I can get an almost 1,000 point force out of some "starter lists" while other armies barely muster 300. Avoid them as much as possible. Points should be pretty simple to understand, IMO, to start with, so focus on that for list building.

Second, Dwarves have some potent synergies, but you need the full machine to really get going. Ironbreakers are solid, but don't do much other than hold the line. Warden King is good, but needs a REAL combat unit to buff. Hammerers, Irondrakes, and Runelords are the REAL bread and butter for the dwarf forces. That should help. If you want to really try some different odds and ends and really get a taste for what Cities of Sigmar is SUPPOSED to do as a faction, try a combined force and find Dwarven counts as. A battlemage can be a cool dwarf model in a robe and can provide some awesome support (the Realm of Beasts Battlemage has a GREAT spell for dwarves)

Also, remember this is an objective game. Dwarves can smash, but they are best at holding firm. BUT...they are also slow, while FEC is fast. Try out some scenarios that can help make the game less about just who can bash harder, because FEC just hits harder, period. It may take some patience to get a hang out, but might help iron out some balance issues. 

[Emicus]

Warden king only worth if for buffing and there are no units to buff.

 

Cogsmith is less useful than an inflatable dartboard.

 

Ironbreakers are tanky but can barely fight their way out of a paper bag!

 

What she needs is irondrakes, hammerers and rune priests! 

[mr.wildist]

On 9/14/2020 at 10:23 AM, flamingwalnut said:

Dwarves are awesome and can be super great, but yeah, you've hit a few odd snags.

First, yeah, Path to Glory is almost always the OPPOSITE of balance. Some of the Path to Glory lists are just....all sorts of wonky. Like, I can get an almost 1,000 point force out of some "starter lists" while other armies barely muster 300. Avoid them as much as possible. Points should be pretty simple to understand, IMO, to start with, so focus on that for list building.

Second, Dwarves have some potent synergies, but you need the full machine to really get going. Ironbreakers are solid, but don't do much other than hold the line. Warden King is good, but needs a REAL combat unit to buff. Hammerers, Irondrakes, and Runelords are the REAL bread and butter for the dwarf forces. That should help. If you want to really try some different odds and ends and really get a taste for what Cities of Sigmar is SUPPOSED to do as a faction, try a combined force and find Dwarven counts as. A battlemage can be a cool dwarf model in a robe and can provide some awesome support (the Realm of Beasts Battlemage has a GREAT spell for dwarves)

Also, remember this is an objective game. Dwarves can smash, but they are best at holding firm. BUT...they are also slow, while FEC is fast. Try out some scenarios that can help make the game less about just who can bash harder, because FEC just hits harder, period. It may take some patience to get a hang out, but might help iron out some balance issues. 

Man ythanks for your help, and thanks a lot for the time and effort you've put into this answer. Yeah, points are an easy system, but somehow I trusted the dwarven start collecting box and the path to glory suggestion looked logical on that basis. Needless to say, the FeC Archregent is a very serious hero compared to the Warden King while the PtG table tries to say they are almost equal.

Looks like hammerers and irondrakes alongside a runelord are a wide consensus for dwarves, so we'll be assembling models like crazy this week. Anyway we're having lots of fun as the game is easy to learn but it can get very complex if you pay attention to it. I've changed my list to a much worse one to balance things a little bit (Ghoul King on foot, Corpsecart and Grymwatch, with the possibility of summoning a 10man Ghoul unit), so we're learning a lot by trying funny things.

When we are able to play by heart, we'll start with objectives. Looks like a very good advice for dwarves!

14 hours ago, Emicus said:

Warden king only worth if for buffing and there are no units to buff.

 

Cogsmith is less useful than an inflatable dartboard.

 

Ironbreakers are tanky but can barely fight their way out of a paper bag!

 

What she needs is irondrakes, hammerers and rune priests! 

Many thanks for your answer. Yeah, the only thing my sister has been able to do with the cogsmith is shooting my varghulf once... It later got shredded in a single combat against it. The same with the gyrocopter, great mobility, interesting bombing anti-ghoul attack, but weak as butter once the archregent or the varghulf reach them in close combat.

I'll try the hammerers and irondrakes + runelord thing. Also the battlemage has interested me a lot.

[Emicus]

While magic is good, it's heresy for dwarves. Your stomach for fluff

 

At bigger points, a celestial hurricanum is WICKED for big dwarf units (+1 to hit), take a Tempest Eye Trait for +1to wound for shooting and irondrakes become outright disgusting.

 

30-60 shots (if standing still) 2/2/-3/1

[Ser_namron]

On 9/15/2020 at 7:43 AM, Emicus said:

30-60 shots (if standing still) 2/2/-3/1

Wheres the -3 come from? -1 base, prayer for another -1? 

[Frowny]

Stacking runelords.

[Televiper11]

So I've spent months tinkering and I've come up with an all-Duardin CoS list that I am very happy with:

Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar
- City: Tempest's Eye
Mortal Realm: Aqshy
Gotrek Gurnisson (520)
- Allies
Warden King (100)
- General
- Command Trait: Hawk-eyed
- Artefact: Seerstone Amulet
Cogsmith (60)
- City Role: General's Adjutant
Runelord (90)
Runelord (90)
10 x Longbeards (100)
- Ancestral Weapons & Shields
- City Role: Honoured Retinue (Must be 5-20 models)
20 x Hammerers (280)
20 x Irondrakes (300)
2 x Gyrobombers (160)
2 x Gyrocopters (140)
2 x Gyrocopters (140)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 520 / 400
Wounds: 104
 

 

[Double Misfire]

@Televiper11

Nice! The Gyrocopter/bombers will go a long way towards grabbing objectives, and Tempest's Eye's probably your safest bet city-wise, speeding up the rest of your guys, though you may want to experiment with Irondrakes and the Living City.

Not too sure about the Cogsmith without any artillery to support, and feel you may be better off with another Runelord, or extra (half price) Gyrocopters to fill out both your units. Unless you're totally in love with the Cogsmith model, in which case more power to you!  

[Televiper11]

Well my thought is that a bubble wrapped Cogsmith can heal the Gyros as needed but maybe I’ll swap him for another Copter