AoS 2 - Ossiarch Bonereapers Discussion

[AaronWilson]

FAQ Is up, Nagash lost his CA to grant re-rolls 1 to hit and save rolls. He now has a new CA that picks unit and increases the ward save by one. He also has a rule that you can re-roll the dice on abilities that return slain models. 

Unit of 30 Mortek, with reinforced battle shields, death magic incarnate, next to a harvester in PE has a 4+ save, ignoring rend 1, a 4+ ward save, and a 4+ to a return the slain model to the unit.

Edited December 21, 2021 by AaronWilson
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[AaronWilson]

How are people reading the interaction between Supreme Lord of the Undead & Invocation of Nagash?

Does IoN increase the amount returned by SLotU.

Can I heal an extra wound, or only return an extra model?

If I have a unit of 5 Death Riders and 2 are dead, do I get turn 2? 

[Sception]

37 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

If I have a unit of 5 Death Riders and 2 are dead, do I get turn 2? 

That's how I read it, but it's awkward.

I read it as no affect on healing.

Unfortunately, Nagash can no longer use invocation to heal himself at all.  Between that, losing save rerolls (across the entire army!), losing allegiance abilities (no petrifex bonus for nagash), he's much weaker than before.  Did his points come down at all?

Edit: nevermind addressed in faq

Edited December 21, 2021 by Sception

[AaronWilson]

1 hour ago, Sception said:

That's how I read it, but it's awkward.

I read it as no affect on healing.

Unfortunately, Nagash can no longer use invocation to heal himself at all.  Between that, losing save rerolls (across the entire army!), losing allegiance abilities (no petrifex bonus for nagash), he's much weaker than before.  Did his points come down at all?

Edit: nevermind addressed in faq

Yeah no self healing is not something I picked up on, paired with no Heroic Recovery in combat, no -1 rend, certainly makes him more vulnerable to just being blown up / ground down 

[Sception]

So, nagash + gothizzar harvester.  Does the harvester return 2 slain mortek guard for every 4+ roll?  If nagash is on the table, can a 4+ roll from a harvester return a slain morghast, stalker, or deathrider, even if the total wound cap restored wouldn't normally be enough to return any such models? 0+1=1?

Edited December 21, 2021 by Sception

[That Guy]

So first of all. IoC claims it can heal 5 different Summonable or Ossiarch Bonereaper units for 3 or revive an amount of models equal to 3 wounds. He can in fact still heal Arkhan, since Arkhan just gained the Ossiarch Bonereaper keyword. Since Nagash lost the option to get the Bonereapers keyword, he indeed won't be able to self heal. In fact he can't be healed by any of the characters abilities, nor is there heroic recovery available. The only way perhaps he might heal is by using his Soulstealer spell, Soulstealer Carrion Endless spell or Life Swarm Endless spell(so there are still ways). He lost his re-rolls 1 to save and to hit CA. He can't benefit from the -1 rend battle trait from PE. In fact he can't gain a Sub-Faction keyword at all, excluding him of all the sub-faction exclusive CA's or benefitting from them. The benefit he has in an OBR army though, is that he's allowed to spam Death Magic Incarnate CA allowing him to give 5+ wards to all our units and cast protection of Nagash on himself. 

 

Back to the Invocation and Supreme Lord situation.
I understand this one is open for cheese, since the Supreme Lord ability doesn't specify a max wound characteristic, but just plainly states you can revive an extra guy on top of your normal revive. But let's all be fair there's no way it's intended that you get to heal 2 times a 3 wound horse with Nagash. He just let's us add 1 extra 1 wound guy to our revives. At least that would be the most reasonable. A 3 wound heal or revive 4 times a 1 wound model, or 1 time a 3 wound model. Think about it. If you would place Arkhan or Katakros with him, your opponent would have to kill an entire unit of 5 Deathriders instantly or it revives back up to full. That's just ridiculous, no way that's intended. 

[Sception]

I dont see any interpretation of the ability as written that lets you invoke a fourth mortek but not a second deathrider (or first morghast, or what have you).

Either the max wound characteristic still applies (supreme lord lets you raise an extra model, but doesn't say anything about wound characteristic limits), in which case supreme lord doesn't interact with invocation of nagash at all, or the wound characteristic limit doesn't apply, in which case yes you restore one additional model, whether the starting amount of models restored was three morteks, one deathrider, or zero morghasts.

Given how much easier nagash is to take down now, the obvious counter play is the same as for the harvester - just kill the big guy first.

[That Guy]

42 minutes ago, Sception said:

I dont see any interpretation of the ability as written that lets you invoke a fourth mortek but not a second deathrider (or first morghast, or what have you).

Either the max wound characteristic still applies (supreme lord lets you raise an extra model, but doesn't say anything about wound characteristic limits), in which case supreme lord doesn't interact with invocation of nagash at all, or the wound characteristic limit doesn't apply, in which case yes you restore one additional model, whether the starting amount of models restored was three morteks, one deathrider, or zero morghasts.

Given how much easier nagash is to take down now, the obvious counter play is the same as for the harvester - just kill the big guy first.

It is true what you say about the interpretation. Indeed currently the 2 abilities being separate and the way it's written would mean the adding of a 4th Mortek would also mean that you could add a Deathrider. It has to be FAQ'd, but if you think about this clearly it becomes beyond ridiculous if you add in a second unit that can heal in any sort of way. According to your logic, if I would play an Arkhan as well, now I may revive 4 Deathriders per unit. Your opponent will have to fully annihilate even a min squad of Deathriders or they will fully restore to full. Now that would be 3 units max, but it's still ridiculous. If that's how it works my List is:
Nagash                                       or              Nagash
Arkhan/ 2x Morghastx2                               2x Deathriders x 10
3x Deathriders x 5                                       1x Deathriders x5
Pendulum                                                    Pendulum 

I just realized... that the Death Magic Incarnate is part of the the Combat Phase... Which means in PE you can't even Bludgeon with your units if you want them to benefit from a 5+ ward. I guess you can plan in your attacks in fight order. Bludgeon your first unit, Death Magic your second, if you expect big blows. etc.

Edited December 22, 2021 by That Guy

[Sception]

Again, even with the more generous interpretation of supreme lord, Nagash himself is still so much more vulnerable and harder to heal than he used to be that the obvious counterplay of 'just kill nagash first' would make such a list considerably weaker than obr Nagash lists were before.

[AaronWilson]

Nagash is certainly a lot worse in OBR now, no -1 rend, no bludgeon, no unstoppable advance, no self healing, no re-roll 1s of save or hits. I thin he will still be a lot of fun to push around, PoN is a great spell and mean with his own CA he will have a 4+ ward against everything which is good but there's no way he's not just straight up weaker then before inside OBR. 

[Sooper88]

3 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

Nagash is certainly a lot worse in OBR now, no -1 rend, no bludgeon, no unstoppable advance, no self healing, no re-roll 1s of save or hits. I thin he will still be a lot of fun to push around, PoN is a great spell and mean with his own CA he will have a 4+ ward against everything which is good but there's no way he's not just straight up weaker then before inside OBR. 

He can't use his own CA on himself. And even if he could, it's only during combat.

[AaronWilson]

14 hours ago, Sooper88 said:

He can't use his own CA on himself. And even if he could, it's only during combat.

Ah yeah... that is a shame. Protection of Nagash is still a great spell on him at least!

[frostfire]

Can Nagash use Supreme lord ability to reroll the harvester roll?

[AaronWilson]

2 minutes ago, frostfire said:

Can Nagash use Supreme lord ability to reroll the harvester roll?

I would say no, "If this unit is on the battlefield when you use an ability that returns slain models to a friendly Death unit, you can either re-roll the dice that determines the number of slain models returned to that unit or add 1 to the number of slain models that are returned to that unit" as the roll doesn't determine the number, the number is a fixed 1.

However you would get to return two mortek for everyone 4+ you roll. 

[frostfire]

4 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

However you would get to return two mortek for everyone 4+ you roll. 

jeez that's even better.

[AaronWilson]

4 minutes ago, frostfire said:

jeez that's even better.

I expect it to be FAQ'd as it sort of makes the unit unkillable next to the harvester.

[frostfire]

13 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

I expect it to be FAQ'd as it sort of makes the unit unkillable next to the harvester.

Agree. And it does need a FAQ to explain that if Nagash can use all those universal CAs since he "does not benefit from" OBR's allegiance abilties. 

[AaronWilson]

1 hour ago, frostfire said:

Agree. And it does need a FAQ to explain that if Nagash can use all those universal CAs since he "does not benefit from" OBR's allegiance abilties. 

Yeah, very true and a good point I'd not thought of. 

[Sception]

5 hours ago, frostfire said:

Agree. And it does need a FAQ to explain that if Nagash can use all those universal CAs since he "does not benefit from" OBR's allegiance abilties. 

That FAQ has already happened.  In an OBR army the only command ability Nagash can issue is the one on his warscroll, and he uses RDP to do it, not normal command points.

The FAQ also says a player commanding an army with nagash can use his command ability any time in the same phase, which is weird because that's not how OBR command abilities normally work.  Like typically you can use the same ability multiple times in the same phase, but it still has to be issued/received by units that have not issued or received any command abilities that phase.  Nagash's command ability would always need to be issued by Nagash, so this FAQ gives nagash only, in OBR armies specifically, the ability to issue multiple command abilities in the same phase, but only the command ability on his warscroll.  This may require further clarification in the future.

[That Guy]

12 hours ago, Sception said:

This may require further clarification in the future.

Perhaps it will be a thing in a new tome. 

[Nagashfan]

So faq makes it seem like nagash can use the same command ability multiple times in a phase…. Can all our dudes do this? I’m confused now

[Nagashfan]

For nagash and the plus one to ward save would that give mortek with the reinforce battle shields spell a 4 up against mortals and a 5 up vs normal wounds?

[That Guy]

5 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

So faq makes it seem like nagash can use the same command ability multiple times in a phase…. Can all our dudes do this? I’m confused now

In OBR Nagash can issue only his own CA. He can issue it multiple times per phase, the faq says so. No not all our dudes can do this. If you read “Using Relentless Discipline points” in the faq, it specifically says that CA’s on warscrolls can be issued multiple times, but only by a different model that hasn’t issued an order yet that phase and it can’t be received by the same unit. 
 

4 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

For nagash and the plus one to ward save would that give mortek with the reinforce battle shields spell a 4 up against mortals and a 5 up vs normal wounds?

Yes twice. As per Core Rules 14.3 Wards. If an ability allows you to negate a wound(So this could be a Mortal wound, a normal wound or both) it is considered a ward. Since reinforce battleshields gives you technically a mortal wound ward of 5+, now that goes to 4+ and indeed normally you have a 6+ ward vs normal wounds, now going up to a 5+.

 

[Nagashfan]

5 hours ago, That Guy said:

In OBR Nagash can issue only his own CA. He can issue it multiple times per phase, the faq says so. No not all our dudes can do this. If you read “Using Relentless Discipline points” in the faq, it specifically says that CA’s on warscrolls can be issued multiple times, but only by a different model that hasn’t issued an order yet that phase and it can’t be received by the same unit. 
 

Yes twice. As per Core Rules 14.3 Wards. If an ability allows you to negate a wound(So this could be a Mortal wound, a normal wound or both) it is considered a ward. Since reinforce battleshields gives you technically a mortal wound ward of 5+, now that goes to 4+ and indeed normally you have a 6+ ward vs normal wounds, now going up to a 5+.

 

Nagash and mortek and harvester seems like a resilient combo…. Even with the loss of his allegiance abilities…. Maybe he doesn’t go on the shelf???

[That Guy]

2 hours ago, Nagashfan said:

Nagash and mortek and harvester seems like a resilient combo…. Even with the loss of his allegiance abilities…. Maybe he doesn’t go on the shelf???

He doesn’t, people always panic when their beloved character is changed in any sort of way. His viability has been shifted more towards support necromancy, while being less survivable himself. We will have to see how that goes in matchups that truely try to focus Nagash down. I’ve seen a few BR’s so far and none where he lost. I’ve yet to test him myself. We desperately need an faq for Nagash’s Supreme Lord ability though. The interpretation of it is wild in some cases, especially in OBR. But yea the Gothizzar returning 2 for every 4+ is very strong indeed.  I enjoy using Mortarchs especially Arkhan with Nagash. All of them have invocations for multiple units that get boosted by Supreme Lord. It’s one big happy family that way. I do hope they come with clarifications rather sooner than later though.

Edited December 26, 2021 by That Guy