How many Starsoul Maces should I take?

[Taketheskull]

Having recently learned that I can take 2 Starsoul Maces per 5 Retributors (I thought it was just one), the question that begs it self to be asked is...

How many should I take for Retributors?

My quick mathhammering in my head, suggests (when including the Blast to Ashes mortal wounds) against a Save - or 6+ unit a Retributor does 1.7 to 1.8 damage per turn, which gets worse as the Save value increases, clearly.

Therefore, with a Starsoul Mace averaging 2 damage, I should take 2 of them?

What is the consensus out there?

[Lez]

As a rule i always take as many as I can. 

Just removing the hit and wound roll is enough for me.

With nearly everyone having some access to -1 to hit removing that roll for me really works.

 

[Turragor]

A little related question to this:

If I have:

2 push fit retributor primes

4 push fit retributors

2 star soul mace protectors (really any paladin type can use them)

3 protectors

and I've then bought a new box set, what's the best thing for me to build?

I'm thinking of getting my hands on 2 more push fit retributors and converting them with the star souls.  Then using the box to build 2 protectors and 3 decimators. Or maybe 1 protector and 4 decimators.

I think decimators and protectors are better with fewer star soul maces when used appropriately.

 

[Taketheskull]

I think the specialist roles of Decimators and Protectors muddy the waters a dash.

If they are doing what they should be doing (fighting monsters & hordes) I would hope they average more than 2 damage each (haven't done the math sorry) in which case they don't need maces.

if you want maces to help mitigate them getting caught "out of position", then you're probably better off taking Retributors.

[Lez]

I agree in an ideal world you would be fighting purely monsters with protectors or hordes with decimators.

I have always included 2 maces in my decimators as a redundancy just in case I am out of position or get double turned by a monster/character.

In practice I've found 3 decimators more than enough for most hordes if they are bunched up.

I think with battle shock I killed a unit of 40 spear elves in one round at Sheffield slaughter this year.

With regards to the decimator/retributor/decimator question.

personally I have 10 retributors with 4 maces and would like the same options for the other Paladins.

there is always more stormcasts to paint...

[Chris Tomlin]

For Retributors the answer is unequivocally, all of them!

So 2 if taking 5, 4 if taking 10.

For the other Paladins, I've listened to the arguments against this and whilst I am sure there is merit to other configurations, my answer is once again;

All of them!

They are disgusting to play against, but the most fun to use!!

If you're struggling to obtain the models, there's cheap conversions possible using two pairs of Decimator axe blades.

[Khornedog]

Hey really dumb question.  Do the starsoul maces do normal attacks like the hammers plus the blast ability?  Or, do they give up normal attacks and just do one blast ability per turn?

[tjgreenway]

52 minutes ago, Khornedog said:

Hey really dumb question.  Do the starsoul maces do normal attacks like the hammers plus the blast ability?  Or, do they give up normal attacks and just do one blast ability per turn?

No normal attacks, just the Starsoul Mace D3 mortal wounds attack  

[daedalus81]

1 hour ago, Khornedog said:

Hey really dumb question.  Do the starsoul maces do normal attacks like the hammers plus the blast ability?  Or, do they give up normal attacks and just do one blast ability per turn?

Totally different weapon.

I think people are making the maces out to be a bit better than they are.

A unit of 5 retributors with just hammers has 11 attacks that do 7.8 wounds on average before the ability.  A unit with 2 maces and 7 other attacks does 9 wounds.   With 11 attacks you'll at least get one 6, if not 2, which can bring pure hammers to 9.1 and 10.5 wounds respectively.

Maces just remove the stress of missing.  Hammers have more overall potential.

 

[Khornedog]

So really they kind of balance each other out mathematically?

[Beardyface]

2 hours ago, daedalus81 said:

Totally different weapon.

I think people are making the maces out to be a bit better than they are.

A unit of 5 retributors with just hammers has 11 attacks that do 7.8 wounds on average before the ability.  A unit with 2 maces and 7 other attacks does 9 wounds.   With 11 attacks you'll at least get one 6, if not 2, which can bring pure hammers to 9.1 and 10.5 wounds respectively.

Maces just remove the stress of missing.  Hammers have more overall potential.

 

When you face something with a big save though these wounds drop off and then the maces become way more valuable. As Chris said:

 

ALWAYS TAKE MAXIMUM MACES!

[daedalus81]

The math still disagrees on a 3+ save.

2 maces = 4 wounds then you have 7 more hammers for 3.11.  Alternatively you have 11 attacks of which 10 will do 5.93 plus two for the last attack rolling a 6.  

That's 7.11 vs 7.93 with just one six.

2+ save is 6.07 vs 6.44

[daedalus81]

25 minutes ago, Khornedog said:

So really they kind of balance each other out mathematically?

With hammers mostly, yea.  Stuff like decimators it gets a little dicey depending on how many models are in range.

I think most people should take them anyway, because automatic hit and wound is comforting and reliable (like I need the enemy to die now).  Hammers could roll 4 6s and 7 1s and come out on top.  It all boils down to how many dice you like to roll and the gamble you're making for extra pay-off.


My overall point is don't stress it so much.

[Somnicide]

45 minutes ago, daedalus81 said:

The math still disagrees on a 3+ save.

2 maces = 4 wounds then you have 7 more hammers for 3.11.  Alternatively you have 11 attacks of which 10 will do 5.93 plus two for the last attack rolling a 6.  

That's 7.11 vs 7.93 with just one six.

2+ save is 6.07 vs 6.44

Did your math take into consideration that each save actually prevents 2 wounds with the hammers? I've found with the low number of dice rolling it actually makes it fairly swingy. 2 hits might do 4 wounds or it might do 0. 2 in particular on 2/3 is right there in that sweet spot of odds where they will make both rolls. Granted your experiences may differ, I'm in a death heavy metal and face a fair amount of ethereal stacked with mystic shield, so mortal wounds are always better for me wherever I can get them.

[daedalus81]

Math is for 10 attacks our of 11 with one reserved for the special ability -- fudging it against the hammers to avoid estimating too highly.  Though I did neglect the odds for a special with starsoul setup.

11 attacks - 1.84 become special strikes producing 3.7 mortal wounds.  9.16 attacks remain (hit 3/5 since no sixes) that produce 3.7 wounds.

Or 2 starsoul maces average 4 wounds and 7 attacks remain.  1.2 becomes special for 2.4 wounds leaving 5.8 attacks that produce 2.3 wounds

So, 7.4 (hammers) vs 8.7 (maces).  I'll admit some defeat, but starsoul maces are unbuffable whereas a lord celestant is going to bring that 6+ to a 5+. Although he doesn't seem to be a popular general.

Thanks for pushing and keeping me honest.