BLADEGHEIST REVENANTS vs DREADSCYTHE HARRIDANS

[GeneralZero]

Both cost the same (points and $$)

Both share the same miniatures per unit

But hit like a truck.

And honnestly, both look amazing.

I'm in the plastic junckies train . I'll get them all at some point (= later). But now? My take is that the Bladegheist feel more heavy hitter alone in the front line, doing some hit-retreat-charge dance by themselves. That's why I'm enclined to take them first... And the dreadscythes need more support to shine...

And you: at the end of the day, which one will you pick up? I know, "both" should be the righ answer, but I don't have the budget yet to get 2 boxes of each. I'll take 2 boxes of the same. Which one?

[Nevar]

Bladegeists, because the Dreadscythes look lame.

[Nighthaunt Noob]

Bladegheists are better in pretty much every conceivable way.

[GeneralZero]

1 hour ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

Bladegheists are better in pretty much every conceivable way.

Should have been better to enlighten us with some arguments....

[Keldaur]

1 hour ago, Nevar said:

Bladegeists, because the Dreadscythes look lame.

Except when you get charged and in the combat phases where you are not able to attack.

[Nevar]

10 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

Except when you get charged and in the combat phases where you are not able to attack.

I only meant visually, that was not in reference to any rules.

[Keldaur]

5 minutes ago, Nevar said:

I only meant visually, that was not in reference to any rules.

Yeah sry i meant to quote  this instead:

 

1 hour ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

Bladegheists are better in pretty much every conceivable way.

 

[Nighthaunt Noob]

1 hour ago, GeneralZero said:

Should have been better to enlighten us with some arguments....

Better synergies, better battalion, more tactical flexibility, better looking model.

[Keldaur]

20 minutes ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

Better synergies, better battalion, more tactical flexibility, better looking model.

Better synergies no, more reliant on synergies, and it can give them a slightly better output. 

Better battallion is obviously untrue if you go per pure benefits, denying inspiring presence is a hell of a battallion rule against many targets (and it helps a lot in missions because the first step to get to score in many missions, is to kill as many  models as possible).

They are more flexible because they can retreat and charge, yep.

Anyways potential damage per attacks, only if you charge and get to be close to a spirit torment/chainghast, the bladegheists are better, and not by much. For example two 10 man/women units. 

30  *  8/9 * 2/3  = 17.78 wounds

31 * 1/2 + 2.5 hits (rerolling ones from spirit torment) = 18 hits * 2/3  (6s are 2 damage) = 15 wounds.

And that's charging with the bladegheists. If you are in the opponent's combat phase, the banshees win by a decent margin (15 to 11.8).

Bladegheists vs Dreadscythes comparisons are close enough.

About better looking model, completely subjective. I like bladegheists more, but i know people who don't. /shrug.

Just for funsies about the battallions. If you charged 30 tzaangors with units of 20 of any of those, we would be at:

Bladegheists kill on average :  12 tzaangors. None at the bravery phase. In return the tzaangors atleast with 2handed weapons would kill 6 bladegheists.

Dreadscythes kill on average : 10 tzaangors. Plus 9more from the bravery phase on average. In return tzaangors would had killed 7.5 dreadscythes instead.

[Nevar]

19 minutes ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

Better synergies, better battalion, more tactical flexibility, better looking model.

They do have more damage potential overall, but the Bladegeists do have much better tactical flexibility and reliability in my opinion.  So I guess it depends on how you like to play.

[Nevar]

1 minute ago, Keldaur said:

Better battallion is obviously untrue if you go per pure benefits,

I dunno, 4+/5++ is extremely good.  That makes Bladegeists more survivable than nurgle deamons and mortals.  4+ unrendable is amazing, adding a 5++ on top of that is pretty disgusting.  Leadership debuff and no inspiring presence is much more situational.  I think the Revenents have the better battalion by far.

[Keldaur]

6 minutes ago, Nevar said:

I dunno, 4+/5++ is extremely good.  That makes Bladegeists more survivable than nurgle deamons and mortals.  4+ unrendable is amazing, adding a 5++ on top of that is pretty disgusting.  Leadership debuff and no inspiring presence is much more situational.  I think the Revenents have the better battalion by far.

Read the last part about battallions. People underestimate all the time how good it is to deny inspiring presence (and overestimate an increase from 6+ to 5+ if they are close to a character THAT CAN be sniped), hence why they only look at raw numbers and damage output under "ideal" scenarios. Against any unit that has a decent amount of models, dreadscythes will outperform bladegheists with the battallion. If bladegheists are in the opponent's phase, scythes will outperform vastly (if you take into account fleeing models) the bladegheists.

They are also much better against any multiwound units (such as tzaangors, 'ard boyz, bonesplitters, etc), because they will be dealing a crazy amount of wounds considered the models running away.

What do bladegheists well? Hit and run. They are actual crazy good with double turns, and are able to reach characters, or scoring objectives efficiently in ways dreadscythes can't.

They have different roles, strengths and weakness. As simple as that. One is not "better in every conceivable way."

[Nighthaunt Noob]

Obviously my initial statement was an exaggeration. One thing to keep in mind with Battalions though is if they make me take any models I would not otherwise take. Shroudguard is the clear winner here with a KoS or Reikenor vs. a Tomb Banshee (possibly the worst Nighthaunt hero) and 2 units of Mymourn. The Shrieker Host already starts as a more costly batallion, and dictates a significant portion of the rest of your army, especially since Myrmourn units are better in larger numbers.

13 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

Read the last part about battallions. People underestimate all the time how good it is to deny inspiring presence (and overestimate an increase from 6+ to 5+ if they are close to a character THAT CAN be sniped), hence why they only look at raw numbers and damage output under "ideal" scenarios. Against any unit that has a decent amount of models, dreadscythes will outperform bladegheists with the battallion. If bladegheists are in the opponent's phase, scythes will outperform vastly (if you take into account fleeing models) the bladegheists.

They are also much better against any multiwound units (such as tzaangors, 'ard boyz, bonesplitters, etc), because they will be dealing a crazy amount of wounds considered the models running away.

What do bladegheists well? Hit and run. They are actual crazy good with double turns, and are able to reach characters, or scoring objectives efficiently in ways dreadscythes can't.

They have different roles, strengths and weakness. As simple as that. One is not "better in every conceivable way."

 

[Nevar]

6 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

Read the last part about battallions. People underestimate all the time how good it is to deny inspiring presence (and overestimate an increase from 6+ to 5+ if they are close to a character THAT CAN be sniped), hence why they only look at raw numbers and damage output under "ideal" scenarios. Against any unit that has a decent amount of models, dreadscythes will outperform bladegheists. They are also much better against any multiwound units (such as tzaangors, 'ard boyz, bonesplitters, etc), because they will be dealing a crazy amount of wounds considered the models running away.

They have different roles, strengths and weakness. As simple as that. One is not "better in every conceivable way."

Enemies having a CP banked for Inspiring Presence is a CP not spent on rerolls or other Command Abilities.  When you deploy the Harridan battalion and the enemy is aware of their ability, all you do is make their choices on how to spend their CP easier.  Yes if you happen to catch someone with this battalion who isn't really paying attention or understanding the game, then this could be clutch, but if you are playing an equal on the table top you just remove one dillema from their mind and allow them to focus more on other things.  The Harridans are going to do their damage either way, just like a Bladegeist, but with the Harridan battalion all that happens is the opponent writes off the unit that gets attacked by the Harridans and focuses elsewhere.  With the Bladegeists they have to consider if using the CP is worth it or not, especially since the Bladegeists might just bounce off and charge something else.  More points of error is generally better when competing against someone of the same level as you.

5++ on the other hand is just a passive bonus that makes the Bladegeists that much harder to kill.  While a lot of people overestimate the effect of a single increase from 6++ to 5++, I agree with you on that, equal numbers of people underestimate how much that increase effects.  Again, it also presents your opponent with more dillemas.  You can snipe the Knight of Shrouds, but then you are not killing the Bladegeists.  How much effort do you put into sniping the character?  Is removing the 5++ worth the effort?  Decisions forced on your opponent have a value of their own, and I am very much in the same camp as you where I do not think just running the numbers accurately simulates the value of a unit or battalion. 

What puts it cleanly ahead in my mind is that it directly covers one of the weaknesses of the Bladegeists, and that is what you pointed out that in the enemy combat phase they suffer.  The 5++ helps mitigate that directly.  The banshee battalion does not mitigate their weaknesses.

With a KoS using his CP on the Shroud Guard, you have a unit who hits on 2's with 3 attacks each on the charge.  Or hitting on 3's with 4 attacks each on the charge.  In the banshee battalion you have the Harridans hitting on 4's with 3 attacks each.  The Harridans are hoping for 6s to make up those wounds, and then also hoping for a lot of casualties and a high roll on the enemy for more casualties.  The Harridans have a lot of 'I hope' involved, which is why I said the Bladegeists are more reliable.  The Harridans can spike a lot better than Bladegeists, but I at least would rather not play the "I hope I roll especially well, and he rolls especially poorly." roullette.

Also, I am not the one who claimed they were better in every conceivable way.  I agree with you, they are mostly even with each other.  One is more reliable but not spectacular, and one is much more swingy, but can be spectacular.  It all comes down to each player's outlook on tactics.

Also... falling back and charging is worth so much in gold I can't even express it.

[Keldaur]

"CPs used on Inspiring presence are used on other stuff". Obviously, it does not mean that  not to let your unit to get wiped off an objective is ussually a more optimal CP usage than to get a +1 attack in something else later on. 

"You decide wether you attack the bladegheists or the knight of shrouds". When i am talking about sniping characters, is because you have the tools to do it. You are not stretching resources, but your list has some resources used to snipe off characters. Not every army has them, but i am not going to throw the lord of change spells into the bladegheists if i can snipe the knight of shrouds with a midnight tome or fell wind and CPs to fuel his ability. Many battallions suffer from relying entirely on a single snipeable character.

"Consistency" I was talking about averages. Not spikes. The difference between rolling the average, or rolling 0 6s to wound, are 3 wounds, not 10. We are not talking about Spirit hosts that completely rely on their 6s to get decent damage, dreadscythes have a decent damage output on its own.

"You are not the one who claimed..." And i did not claim you did. I was only pointing out that denying inspiring presence often gets undervalued (and the 5+ overvalued), when pretty much every game i play i start salivating the moment i see my opponent with no CPs to spend on inspiring presence, or baiting it and hoping for a double turn. 

[Keldaur]

4 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

Both cost the same (points and $$)

Both share the same miniatures per unit

But hit like a truck.

And honnestly, both look amazing.

I'm in the plastic junckies train . I'll get them all at some point (= later). But now? My take is that the Bladegheist feel more heavy hitter alone in the front line, doing some hit-retreat-charge dance by themselves. That's why I'm enclined to take them first... And the dreadscythes need more support to shine...

And you: at the end of the day, which one will you pick up? I know, "both" should be the righ answer, but I don't have the budget yet to get 2 boxes of each. I'll take 2 boxes of the same. Which one?

If you don't have the units to do the shrieker battallion, i would go with the bladegheists. You will find easier to find synergies and work with them if you already own the spirit torment and knight of srhouds (or reikenor for the cogs). You don't even need to go with the battallion for them to work decently.

[GeneralZero]

All this reads confirm what I thought at the beginning: I'll go Bladegheist for my playstyle. For the bataillon, I dunno: 2*10 seems a bit light: at least I'd prefer one on of them being 15...

[themortalgod]

I feel both offer a ton of tactical flexibility and are better choices in different situations. Against low bravery armies harridans are amazing. -1 to be hit and the shrieker host buff is fantastic. Especially if thr Lady is around too.

On the flip side you can make an amazing tarpit or hit and run troop with revenants. I think a lot of people dont realize the value of charging into a tarpit then fleeing THROUGH it next turn to charge what it is protecting.

I think they are both amazing and unique options. GW did a great job at making two elite melee units very different.

I intend to have both battalions in my collection and run either depending on my mood.

Also, dont be afraid to run either as MSU. Neither unit gains any meaningful benefit from larger units. 2 units of 5 is actually better than one unit of 10 unless you plan to use a targeted buff.

[Wraith01]

I pick my miniatures based on one criteria: The Rule of Cool! And I prefer the look of the Bludegheist Revenants. 

Already ordered them. Looking forward to getting them, building them, painting them and adding them to my all new NightHaunt army!

 

[Nighthaunt Noob]

29 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

I feel both offer a ton of tactical flexibility and are better choices in different situations. Against low bravery armies harridans are amazing. -1 to be hit and the shrieker host buff is fantastic. Especially if thr Lady is around too.

On the flip side you can make an amazing tarpit or hit and run troop with revenants. I think a lot of people dont realize the value of charging into a tarpit then fleeing THROUGH it next turn to charge what it is protecting.

I think they are both amazing and unique options. GW did a great job at making two elite melee units very different.

I intend to have both battalions in my collection and run either depending on my mood.

Also, dont be afraid to run either as MSU. Neither unit gains any meaningful benefit from larger units. 2 units of 5 is actually better than one unit of 10 unless you plan to use a targeted buff.

Main downfall of MSU is easier to wipe them out (depending on if you plan to deploy any strategy of bringing them back).

[themortalgod]

1 hour ago, Nighthaunt Noob said:

Main downfall of MSU is easier to wipe them out (depending on if you plan to deploy any strategy of bringing them back).

Yes, but NH have pretty limited regen tools so I dont score this one as too big, could always run a big unit with the help of a few MSU with the intention of regening the big unit as a tarpit.

in my 2.5 k list I plan to do just that by running both battalions. Harridans at minimal size to unlock the battalion bonus and harass while a hammer of revenants holds the line. 

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, themortalgod said:

I think a lot of people dont realize the value of charging into a tarpit then fleeing THROUGH it next turn to charge what it is protecting.

Color me intrigued.

Would you please elaborate on how you go through another unit?

[Keldaur]

1 minute ago, Sleboda said:

Color me intrigued.

Would you please elaborate on how you go through another unit?

Bladegheists movement is 8" and they fly. Cogs +2", Fell wind +3". Those are 13" to juggle around and then your charge 2d6+2" can give you a lot of leeway. It also helps to reposition your bladegheists to lower the amount of enemy models able to attack you.

[soots]

i personally feel really dirty for paying points for the Harridans "Harrowing Shreik" (-1 to hit for B6). The bravery 6 condition is farcical with bravery in AoS. I just feel like im wasting points for it.

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, Keldaur said:

Bladegheists movement is 8" and they fly. Cogs +2", Fell wind +3". Those are 13" to juggle around and then your charge 2d6+2" can give you a lot of leeway. It also helps to reposition your bladegheists to lower the amount of enemy models able to attack you.

Ah. Thanks. Good.

I thought I was missing some basic AoS thing, but really it requires a flying unit and two other spells to make it work.

Nifty. No guarantee, but cool when you pull it off.