Mourngul nerfed again

[Arael_Greywings]

And here we go again.. Please don't take this harshly but do we all want OP units? I at least do not, because I really hate to win because I just bought the Faction with the most badass models.... This is not fun, it is stroking ego. So yeah he is no longer the bundle of steroids that he used to be. So yeah other units can put out more dmg. BUT, and here it again starts to become interessting... Have you taken a look at the wound characteristik of your Mortarch or the other heroes? Good Lady Olynder has 7 if I remember rightly. That is not much. So why did GW do that? And no let's not go into a "GW is evil and they have no clue" some people with loads of experience tried this out for quite some time.

So Assumption:

Models like Lady Olynder are meant to be on the same level as the other Mortarchs both in Survivability and Dmg/Utility Ratio. Now I am not overly good with statistics and maths, so I go with the logic I get from being a salesman

Conclusion:

With the Output of Mortal Wounds by many spells, 7 wounds without more than ethereal makes em really squishy so there is a high chance of something else evening out the scales most likely from the Allegiance "Nighthunt" itself. This would also affect the Mourngul then.

Further Conclusion:
The Mourngul is STILL way more Tanky with inbuild regen and way more wounds. There might be an ability that will negate Mortal Wounds easier like a stat 5+ save or who knows what. We shall see anyways. So for the Moment, since all we can do is speculate:

Final Conclusion:
Let's leave the whinings and mehs for the point when we have conclusive data and rules to go on^^

[Nevar]

4 minutes ago, Arael_Greywings said:

With the Output of Mortal Wounds by many spells, 7 wounds without more than ethereal makes em really squishy so there is a high chance of something else evening out the scales most likely from the Allegiance "Nighthunt" itself. This would also affect the Mourngul then.

Further Conclusion:
The Mourngul is STILL way more Tanky with inbuild regen and way more wounds. There might be an ability that will negate Mortal Wounds easier like a stat 5+ save or who knows what. We shall see anyways. So for the Moment, since all we can do is speculate

You and I are basically of the same mind, like I pointed out earlier.

Also, remember that with a 4++ save other than against Mortal Wounds our models have effectively 50% more wounds than listed.  The Mourngul vs. non-MW attacks can be seen as quasi-15 wounds.  Our 7 wound heroes are similar to 10 wound models in natural durability.

Other people have pointed out that it can also be healed by the Spirit Torment, and gain other buffs and synergies.

Like I said in my original comment on how I felt about it.  I feel meh about it because of what I personally -wanted- and my own expectations of it, not that it isn't a solid unit that could potentially be good in the long run.  I was just hoping for something that could be a mainline bruiser monster that we as Nighthaunt lack.  VLoZDs for instance are similar but with more 'bite', pun intended.

TBH if I were able to I would trade it's new MW on 6's for it's 3+ save back.  At least with the 3+ save it had a very obvious an unique bit that placed it in a durable attack sponge roll.  The old warscroll at 300 points would have been preferable to me, but that is because I am looking for something more specialized than the 'all around ok' version this new one is.  Decent damage, decent tanky, has local support auras.  It will be good for those who want something in that sort of role.

I just wanted something nearly unshiftable, or something that did gruesome damage.  The original OP Mourngul was OP because it did both.  Now it does neither.  I just wanted -one- piece of that puzzle.  In my local meta, this Mounrgul will not survive one turn to get a chance to regen any damage.

[Arael_Greywings]

Just now, Nevar said:

Like I said in my original comment on how I felt about it.  I feel meh about it because of what I personally -wanted- and my own expectations of it, not that it isn't a solid unit that could potentially be good in the long run.  I was just hoping for something that could be a mainline bruiser monster that we as Nighthaunt lack.  VLoZDs for instance are similar but with more 'bite', pun intended. 

Hehe I like that sentiment as well as the pun.
And yeah a VLoZD is way more solid and bitey than the mourngoul, though 140 points more expensive. If we put him to similiar models I think we need to compare him more to the Terrorgheist or the Riderless Zombie Drake. I think in that comparison his kit is not too bad.

I do get you, I really do. I think my post might sound a little harsh because from all sides I feel these days that you either hear: "I am so happy because this is OP" or "Meh they nerfed us so baaaadl". And I was never a friend of either extreme. To me updates like this (AoS 2, Malign Sorcery etc) are a reshuffeling of the deck and all get new cards. They might be similar but the strategies we were used to from the last round no longer apply in the same way, and that is so immensly good. Adapting to changes, making even a bad hand work out for you by just being a lot more clever than everybody else in the room. That is what I truly love about such games. But sorry, I went off topic here ^^

I felt sad too when LoN came out and I realized, the model I had really liked and just 3 weeks earlier fully painted with a rally nice base was now no longer legal if I wanted to play something competitive. That did suck, but in the end I put him on the shelf, gave him a pet on his ugly head and told him "your time will come again little guy".  He currently stands next to my nice kitbashed Necromancer on Nightmare who also fell pray to someone with an evil pen

[Nevar]

15 minutes ago, Arael_Greywings said:

To me updates like this (AoS 2, Malign Sorcery etc) are a reshuffeling of the deck and all get new cards. They might be similar but the strategies we were used to from the last round no longer apply in the same way, and that is so immensly good. Adapting to changes, making even a bad hand work out for you by just being a lot more clever than everybody else in the room. That is what I truly love about such games.

This again is why I think we are both on the same page.  I agree with this 100%.  I am giving my opinion about the Mourngul here because it is a Mourngul thread and I am bored at work.  I have played Nighthaunt for about a year now, so I never played with the OP version of the Mourngul so I am not missing what I used in some days past.  I actually used only the 'nerfed' version.  I used him just for some more variety in my army since I had like six units total.

This Nighthaunt release is nothing but good for me.  I am stoked for tonight when I pick up my Soul Wars box.  I am stoked to relearn how to play my ghosts and read more detailed lore on the Nighthaunt who had basically no lore up until now.  Similarly I love the Maligned Sorcery expansion, so much so I am debating if I switch to Legion of Sacrament now that I can still use all ghosts with the addition of Chainrasps as battle line.  I love all the changes to AoS2.0 and can't wait.

I am 95% positive about everything going down, even this new Mourngul warscroll, but when it comes to talking opinions on things, an individual's expectations can't help but color your overall 'feeling' about the final results.  I feel 'meh' about the Mourngul because it doesn't offer anything that excites me, not because I think it is objectively a 'meh' model.  Especially since I do not have the full details.  Likewise, I was really disappointed in the Nighthaunt Endless Spells.  After seeing all the 'generic' Endless Spells, I was super ready for some seriously flavorful Nighthaunt spells and only the Reaper seems all that 'Nighthaunt' specific as opposed to generic death.  The Gravetide is more Nighthaunt than any of the Nighthaunt Endless Spells for instance.  Again though, that is my feeling due to my expectations, and I keep mentioning that it is my expectations causing disappointment to hopefully highlight for anyone who reads my posts that it is my own fault if I am disappointed, not because GW has failed us in some way or what on offer is not outstanding.

Mounrgul might be outstanding.  He might become a fixture in my lists going forward.  Don't know because I don't have all the details, but I am disappointed in him because of my own hopeful expectations, i.e.  Hype.

[Arael_Greywings]

Hehe, it is 1:14 AM here in Germany at the moment, so my excuse is being a bit insomniac (might just be the full moon) and not wanting to keep my Girlfriend awake by me tossing and turning.

Yeah pure Nighthunt before was really tough to play.  Though Death is becoming more and more cosmopolitan in how you want to play it, with so many different Allegiancess to choose from. It is just a pity that you can't ally the Mourngul to LoN, that would just bes so nice.

Let's wait and see what the NH Battletome brings for your ravenous friend then

[Evil Bob]

47 minutes ago, Arael_Greywings said:

Final Conclusion:

Let's leave the whinings and mehs for the point when we have conclusive data and rules to go on^^

Everyone should be allow to state their own position rather than being told to shut up and acept one as the only valid premise.  Different views can be interesting.

Aside going with one of your tangents I like the niche the new Mortarch of Grief fills.  She’ll be great in low point escalation leagues.  I’m a little tired of only running  a VLoZD because of competition and limits on decent army builds.

[Arael_Greywings]

6 minutes ago, Evil Bob said:

Everyone should be allow to state their own position rather than being told to shut up and acept one as the only valid premise.  Different views can be interesting.

 

I am sorry if I offended you, that was indeed not my intention, nor was it to tell people to "shut up". The essence of my post, and I hope I at least got that partially out and understandable was that I do not think that at this point we can savely say how strong or not the mourngul in the final meta will be since we do not have the data.  I might have been a bit to emotional about it^^ Still this is MY view on the whole Mourngul Situation and this of course I invite people to discuss with me as well (which why I was happy that Nevar shared with me his thoughts).

Indeed my post was really not to put anyone down, but rather to encourage positive thinking. Or rather just being relaxed and see whats coming. Then, if the Mourngul still is not a nice option again for playing, I will gladly join in cursing the very name of Games Workshop because I really like the modell, and I really want to see it back in the playfield without sacrificing efficency in my list.

 

[SleeperAgent]

All I'm saying is if they were gonna lower his save he needed mortal wound protection back. As is stands it's just 100% better to take 2x Spirit Hosts and a Cairn Wraith over this guy. 

[Nevar]

4 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

All I'm saying is if they were gonna lower his save he needed mortal wound protection back. As is stands it's just 100% better to take 2x Spirit Hosts and a Cairn Wraith over this guy. 

Not 100%.

Mourngul gives -1 to hit to all models within 6".  That is both ranged weapons and melee.  If this brosif is in the middle of the action and Lady Olynder casts her -1 to hit spell on say... Stormcast paladins, they go from hitting on 3's to hitting 5's.  Not only are enemies landing less hits, they are also not getting the benefits of their rending and we can bring back models.  Throw this into a bundle of Chainrasps or Grimghats and not only is he adding some damage output, he is increasing the survivability of your other models by 1/6th at least in the melee that follows.  Especially if they are wrapped around him limiting the amount of enemies that can successfully get into melee range with him.  He would be a bear to remove from a blob like that.

Rumor does say we will have a 6++ if near heroes.  I never thought Deathless Minions was all that good, but it might be because I used to play Pheonix Temple and my guys had Witness to Destiny which was a 4++. 

[SleeperAgent]

4 minutes ago, Nevar said:

Not 100%.

Mourngul gives -1 to hit to all models within 6".  That is both ranged weapons and melee.  If this brosif is in the middle of the action and Lady Olynder casts her -1 to hit spell on say... Stormcast paladins, they go from hitting on 3's to hitting 5's.  Not only are enemies landing less hits, they are also not getting the benefits of their rending and we can bring back models.  Throw this into a bundle of Chainrasps or Grimghats and not only is he adding some damage output, he is increasing the survivability of your other models by 1/6th at least in the melee that follows.  Especially if they are wrapped around him limiting the amount of enemies that can successfully get into melee range with him.  He would be a bear to remove from a blob like that.

Rumor does say we will have a 6++ if near heroes.  I never thought Deathless Minions was all that good, but it might be because I used to play Pheonix Temple and my guys had Witness to Destiny which was a 4++. 

Ok 90%. Olynder will never survive a round if targeted. 

[Arael_Greywings]

1 minute ago, SleeperAgent said:

Ok 90%. Olynder will never survive a round if targeted. 

That's exactly why I think there is more to come for Nighthunt in terms of defense. Endless Spells alone are massive MW bombs, and with these in mind I would be surprised if they made the Faction so vulnderable against it.

[Captain Roderick]

3 hours ago, Nevar said:

I don't know what a tenner is.

Apologies, £10 GBP (which is of course cheeky as hell as it's £39 new) 

[Nevar]

1 minute ago, SleeperAgent said:

Ok 90%. Olynder will never survive a round if targeted. 

Legions of Nagash has been out for quite some time, and the other three Mortarchs have been pretty popular additions to Death lists.  Especially I would imagine Arkhan the Black judging from the battle reports and the like i have seen.

They are not ethereal, nor do they have many if anymore wounds than Olynder.  Likewise she is not a monster, so she -does- benefit from LoS!

If you go first you can easily cast the -1 to hit on enemy archers, and then stay close to some chainrasps etc, to let Olynder benefit from a -2 to hit debuff without the Mourngul being nearby.  Add her into the closer range of the front line next to a Mourngul and it can be -3 to hit her thanks to stacking negetives.  Even worse with a Lord Executioner enemy heroes suffer an additional -1 in melee range... so with those three chilling near any blob infantry and all but the Mourngul can be sporting a -3 to hit on enemies at range or in melee.

[Captain Roderick]

3 hours ago, Nevar said:

I don't know what a tenner is.

Apologies, £10 GBP (which is of course cheeky as hell as it's £39 new) 

[Captain Roderick]

3 hours ago, Nevar said:

 

[SleeperAgent]

1 minute ago, Arael_Greywings said:

That's exactly why I think there is more to come for Nighthunt in terms of defense. Endless Spells alone are massive MW bombs, and with these in mind I would be surprised if they made the Faction so vulnderable against it.

Well I think the plan is to nerf everything down to this level. Thats why all the Nighthaunts (and Deepkin bfore it) have the "wholly within" wording. They realized they made some things too powerful so now all the new stuff has to play by "refined" rules. Wouldn't be surprised to see re-wordings on lots of older stuff in the coming months.

[SleeperAgent]

1 minute ago, Nevar said:

Legions of Nagash has been out for quite some time, and the other three Mortarchs have been pretty popular additions to Death lists.  Especially I would imagine Arkhan the Black judging from the battle reports and the like i have seen.

They are not ethereal, nor do they have many if anymore wounds than Olynder.  Likewise she is not a monster, so she -does- benefit from LoS!

If you go first you can easily cast the -1 to hit on enemy archers, and then stay close to some chainrasps etc, to let Olynder benefit from a -2 to hit debuff without the Mourngul being nearby.  Add her into the closer range of the front line next to a Mourngul and it can be -3 to hit her thanks to stacking negetives.  Even worse with a Lord Executioner enemy heroes suffer an additional -1 in melee range... so with those three chilling near any blob infantry and all but the Mourngul can be sporting a -3 to hit on enemies at range or in melee.

Let me clarify, I'm not talking about combat at all. I'm talking about how they have had, and recently added many ways to do Mortal Wounds, of which (until we see the battletome) she has no defense. 4 less wounds is BRUTAL considering spells and abilities can do 3+ easily. I would give up the heal if she just had 3-4 more wounds. As it stands, she will be spelled/abilitied down immediately when people realize all the things she can do that you alluded to. 

[Nevar]

4 minutes ago, Arael_Greywings said:

That's exactly why I think there is more to come for Nighthunt in terms of defense. Endless Spells alone are massive MW bombs, and with these in mind I would be surprised if they made the Faction so vulnderable against it.

Maybe this is one of the places I will not over hype myself.  I don't think there is, I think the rumors of a 6++ save is correct.

Bear with me, but LoN has been doing well and the Mortarchs and heroes have been played plenty even before Look Out Sir was around.  Nighthaunt following the same pattern but adding ethereal to everyone is already a massive boost in durability.  Even our normal units will be juicy targets for MW spells and the like since MW's will avoid our ethereal saves.  Every single enemy unit in the game will be 'wasting' the points they invested in Rend characteristics, and we will still have flying units that can phase through battlelines and the like.

Nighthaunt could literally just be a more mobile version of LoN and we would be an amazing faction.  I would trade grave sites or something similar over the 6++ save any day.  +d3 auto recovered bodies will out attrition MW spell spam most days.

[Nevar]

5 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

Let me clarify, I'm not talking about combat at all. I'm talking about how they have had, and recently added many ways to do Mortal Wounds, of which (until we see the battletome) she has no defense. 4 less wounds is BRUTAL considering spells and abilities can do 3+ easily. I would give up the heal if she just had 3-4 more wounds. As it stands, she will be spelled/abilitied down immediately when people realize all the things she can do that you alluded to. 

Yeah, fortunately spells are cast in the Hero phase and not the shooting phase, so enemies will be unable to make sure they are in range of Olynder unless we move her into danger.   It will turn into a cat and mouse game of who moves into range of the other first.  Obviously things like the Spell Portals exist now, but those are points spent on army creation and are also double edged swords.

Again, I am not saying you are wrong, especially when things like Beast Claw Raiders have their auto 6 wounds on a 2+ ability.  I am just saying I think people are over stating the fragility of our new heroes, and also understating how amazingly cheap they are all things considered.  I would argue Olynder is one of the most powerful Mortarchs on warscroll alone, before I even take into account she is nearly half the point cost of the others.

[Surtur]

I think that Nighthaunt look very powerful up to now. Assuming they get the 6++ faction-wide, they will be highly resilient, especially when considering threat saturation. We may also not forget that MW by spells will be much more difficult to create (Arcane Bolt is only 1 MW, and unbinding works much better). Endless spells and their MW threat are going to be bound to a certain place (e.g., Shyish Reaper must move from where it has been cast ).

And even individually, the units reflect resilience. Chainrasps could easily be 90 or 100 points considering the abilities to heal that Nighthaunt have. Imagine 40 of them, with 5+ unrendable and 6++ and 3 sources for healing behind them. Unshiftable.

And the Mournghul... It has some  wounds more than other targets and the save  is unrendable. And -1 to hit so that many abilities fail to cause MW. His ability to heal. So any enemy who wants to get rid of it needs to dedicate significant attention to it. 10 MW are no easy feat and I expect it will be even more so in the new edition. I also hope enemies will focus on him - from my point of view it is a distraction carnifex. And it fits the army perfectly. So overall I think it would be unjustified to make him cost much less than 300. Although it could be a bit less probably. I would first try him.

Edit: I missed the damage table is still there. Don’t know how I got the idea it was gone.

[GeneralZero]

1 hour ago, Surtur said:

10 wounds without degrading

I don't get it: the new warscrolls says degrading damage...

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/fw_warscrolls/aos-monstrous-arcanum.pdf

[Surtur]

2 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

I don't get it: the new warscrolls says degrading damage...

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/PDF/fw_warscrolls/aos-monstrous-arcanum.pdf

I missed it, sorry. I don’t know how. It also changes my opinion on him a bit. I edited my post.

[GeneralZero]

6 minutes ago, Surtur said:

I missed it, sorry. I don’t know how. It also changes my opinion on him a bit. I edited my post.

But in my opinion, the mourngul is still a viable entry for NH....and our only monster 

[Nevar]

5 hours ago, Surtur said:

And -1 to hit so that many abilities fail to cause MW. 

This is being moved in most things from 6+ to Unmodified 6, which means his -1 debuff will quickly no longer prevent mortal wounds on a 6+.  Stormcasts and Nighthaunt being the obvious ones right now.

Also, he is much more dangerous if you are able to pull of a 10+" charge.  Fighting twice a turn will make him vicious, unfortunately that is 1/6th the times you charge.   Still something to note.

[Neck-Romantic]

It took me a minute to see his changes in a new light, but consider;

Lost:

1 save

Gained:

50 points cheaper

MW generation (much better than previous 'crit' ability)

Deepstrike

10" charge roll double fight

-1 Bravery aura

Able to be healed by tormets

Able to be buffed by torments

Able to be buffed by mKos

Ale to be buffed by MoG spell

6+ FNP vs all wounds if close to another hero (torment or even an executioner)