AoS 2 - Sylvaneth Discussion

[Trevelyan]

4 minutes ago, Atreyu said:

Hey there, how many of the new Wyldwoods are needed on average at 2000 points?

That varies considerably but most people seem to use at least four, including the free wyldwood placed before set up. Fewer than that is likely to leave you wanting more, but there will likely be opportunities to use more if you have them. 

[Atreyu]

4 boxes of Wyldwoods, or 8 boxes of Wyldwoods in total, since a Wyldwood can consist of up to 6 individual pieces?

Edited October 15, 2019 by Atreyu

[Tiberius501]

Treelord Ancient or Spirit of Durthu?

[Kantchill]

Been lurking here for some time, but need some advice ! I've been working on a competitive (all-comers) Sylvaneth list and I'm having my first tournament with them next month! The problem is, I'm really struggling to win games right now. I have played competitive 40k for about 4 years and with a very high win rate, but I can't seem to make AoS work, lol.  (I started a few months ago with AoS, have played about 20 games now) 

I was wondering if anyone sees any mayor flaws in the list building or in my tactics, or if you have any other solid advice for me playing Sylvaneth. The goal is to try and stay away from the Kurnoth net-lists... Personally I think I might be to heavy on the big dudes. Maybe drop the Ancient for an Arch-Revenant and a unit of Kurnoth Hunters? I really like to free Wyldwood he gives tho, it's pretty strong and I use them a lot to teleport Durthu en Drycha to where I need them most. The Wych is also a possible contender to swap for something else, but she's pretty decent support with her spells for only 80 points. 

Any and all help or tips, however small, are appreciated!

I'm using the following list:

Glade; Harvestboon

Durthu 
- General, Ghyrstrike, Seek new Fruit
Drycha
- Regrowth
Treelord Ancient
- Regrowth, Silent Sickle
Branchwych
- Verdous Harmony
Branchwraith
- Throne of Vines

20x Dryads
10x Spite-Revenants
10x Spite-Revenants
10x Spite-Revenants
5x Tree-Revenants
5x Tree-Revenants

Outcast Battalion

Spiteswarm Hive

 

The general tactic: 

Drycha and Spites cover one flank, and I often drop the Spiteswam Hive near them to get them into combat quickly. The other flank (ideally on an objective) is covered by the big blob of Dryads and the Branchwych to bring them back to life. Durthu and de Branchwraith are usually somewhere in between near a wood, so Durthu can get bonus attacks on defence or teleport away wear I need him on offense and the wraith can summon more Dryads (which will then proceed to grab backline objectives). The ancient I just randomly place near where I want the extra free wood, but often near the big blob of Dryads to support them with a stomp. Last but not least the Tree-Revenants are spread out in the back or in the corners of my deployment to deny enemy deepstrike units and after that teleport to grab objectives or in some rare occasions take out lone units/heroes my opponent misplaced. 

 

The main problems I have: 

A) I get alpha-striked to freaking dust before I even moved my models. I often lose the first turn due to the number of drops (9 with the battalion) and the enemy just wipes all the Spites, the Dryads and sometimes when I'm unlucky even one of the big guys. After that I can make a decent comeback by killing a lot with Durthu and Drycha, but I can never grab as many Victory Points as my opponent. I do have to note that I usually set up my battleline units at the edge of me deployment zone (as near to the opponent as possible). I guess that's probably a mistake? 

B) I get a decent start and kill a lot of enemies, often even manage to get a few objectives. But then as the battle continues I usually lose the advantage because the enemy manage to kill my heavy hitters (Durthu and/or Drycha), and they proceed to just wipe out the remaining models after which I struggle to keep an advantage in Victory Points and usually the enemy surpasses me after turn 3 or 4 and I lose. 

Examples, last week I played against:
- Stormcast. Deepstrike with 20 evocators (head turn 1), who killed all my battleline and Drycha before I even started playing. 
- New Orruks. He  moved like 40" and just got all his models in combat at bottom turn 1, killing basically everything except the Ancient and a unit of Spites.
- Gloomspite Gitz. He overwhelmed my with sheer numbers on objectives, but also hit hard with a turn 1 deepstrike using fanatics, and later on his Mangler Squigs and Squig Hoppers just swept the board clean. 

 

 

[overtninja]

56 minutes ago, Atreyu said:

4 boxes of Wyldwoods, or 8 boxes of Wyldwoods in total, since a Wyldwood can consist of up to 6 individual pieces?

On most tables, set up using the rules in the GHB2k19, you're not going to fit that many trees on the table with any certainty. I've run with 2 bases, and with 3 you'd be just fine I think. Lots of our units want to be in cover, and with the amount of terrain on the table now you'll have it most of the time - especially the new terrain that units can actually stand on.

I think 4 is probably the max you'll need - it's unlikely you'll set up more than one base at a time, and filling the whole board with forests aren't really a thing any more.

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Kantchill said:

Been lurking here for some time, but need some advice ! I've been working on a competitive (all-comers) Sylvaneth list and I'm having my first tournament with them next month! The problem is, I'm really struggling to win games right now. I have played competitive 40k for about 4 years and with a very high win rate, but I can't seem to make AoS work, lol.  (I started a few months ago with AoS, have played about 20 games now) 

I was wondering if anyone sees any mayor flaws in the list building or in my tactics, or if you have any other solid advice for me playing Sylvaneth. The goal is to try and stay away from the Kurnoth net-lists... Personally I think I might be to heavy on the big dudes. Maybe drop the Ancient for an Arch-Revenant and a unit of Kurnoth Hunters? I really like to free Wyldwood he gives tho, it's pretty strong and I use them a lot to teleport Durthu en Drycha to where I need them most. The Wych is also a possible contender to swap for something else, but she's pretty decent support with her spells for only 80 points. 

Any and all help or tips, however small, are appreciated!

I'm using the following list:

Glade; Harvestboon

Durthu 
- General, Ghyrstrike, Seek new Fruit
Drycha
- Regrowth
Treelord Ancient
- Regrowth, Silent Sickle
Branchwych
- Verdous Harmony
Branchwraith
- Throne of Vines

20x Dryads
10x Spite-Revenants
10x Spite-Revenants
10x Spite-Revenants
5x Tree-Revenants
5x Tree-Revenants

Outcast Battalion

Spiteswarm Hive

 

 

 

Welcome to Sylvaneth! Here are some quick tips on this list.

-Battleline - Unlike 40k, there is no real advantage to taking more than 3 battleline units. Remember that there is no objective secured, and chargers don't always get to attack first, so a single large unit is almost always better than several small ones (it also gives you less drops and point discounts) . So I would STRONGLY recommend you  trim your battleline units to 20 Dryads, 20 spites, and 5 Tree Revenants. This will give you much more use and also refund you 340pts. This would necessitate you dropping Outcast as well. If you really want Outcast, consider keeping 3x10 Spites and dropping the Tree Revs and Dryads.

-Characters - Durthu and Drycha are great, but when you add in the Treelord ancient, wych/wraiths, and spell you end up at a whopping 1170pts in characters. I would encourage you to trim these guys down. I personally would drop the Treelord Ancient and Branchwych. The Treelord is just not worth his price right now, even with the free forest. If you MUST have the forest, then just use your extra battalion item on the Branchwraith to get the Acorn

-Other - With those changes, we can address your real issue: Combat punch. Your only heavy hitters are Durthu and Drycha, and they can't carry the entire army. I would take the 700+ points you have from the above changes and invest in some Kurnoth Hunters. They are the core strength of our army.  Alternatively, you could invest in Alarielle, as she fills a simliar role and gives you a "free" unit of Kurnoth Hunters,

Hope this helps! 

[Landohammer]

2 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

Treelord Ancient or Spirit of Durthu?

Durthu is hands down better than Treelord Ancient. Personally I would rather have a vanilla Treelord over a TLA. 

4 hours ago, Atreyu said:

Hey there, how many of the new Wyldwoods are needed on average at 2000 points?

The absolute minimum is 2. I personally carry 3 with me  though note that the old citadel woods are cheaper and still available. ( and easier to carry, just leave the trees at home). Note that our true allegiance strength comes from the glade rules. The forests are nice to have, but not critical. 

People often imagine the board covered in forests, but you will frequently run into problems finding room to summon them, especially if you are using recommended amounts of normal terrain. In my experience, the ideal places to summon them (objectives) are usually too crowded with models by turns 2-3. 

 

 

[Trevelyan]

2 hours ago, Tiberius501 said:

Treelord Ancient or Spirit of Durthu?

12 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Durthu is hands down better than Treelord Ancient. Personally I would rather have a vanilla Treelord over a TLA. 

Landohammer frequently sees things differently from me. This is one of those times. 

I find the TLA vastly superior to the standard Treelord. The generic Treelord competes directly with Kurnoth Hunters in the 200 point range. It brings a stomp and a ranged attack, but still suffers from costing as much as a unit of Kurnoths but not being a unit of Kurnoths. The only time I take a Treelord is as part of a Lords of the Clan battalion in a Gnarlroot Glade, or if I’m playing a casual game and fancy a challenge. 

“Durthu or TLA?” is like asking “apples or oranges?” One is a melee beatstick who prefers to have support to keep him alive and at optimal performance (someone has to heal the ****** and provide it with Wyldwoods) and the other is a multi-purpose wizard with enough combat potential to contribute to a fight without being able to win solo. Which you want depends on what else you have in the list. 

[Trevelyan]

2 hours ago, overtninja said:

I think 4 is probably the max you'll need - it's unlikely you'll set up more than one base at a time, and filling the whole board with forests aren't really a thing any more.

I’ve never not been able to place at least four woods, even using the terrain placement rules. They frequently go around the edges rather than the middle of the table as they once did, but using them to move units later in the game, especially behind the enemy line from turn 3+, has won me games. 

[Kantchill]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

Welcome to Sylvaneth! Here are some quick tips on this list.

-Battleline - Unlike 40k, there is no real advantage to taking more than 3 battleline units. Remember that there is no objective secured, and chargers don't always get to attack first, so a single large unit is almost always better than several small ones (it also gives you less drops and point discounts) . So I would STRONGLY recommend you  trim your battleline units to 20 Dryads, 20 spites, and 5 Tree Revenants. This will give you much more use and also refund you 340pts. This would necessitate you dropping Outcast as well. If you really want Outcast, consider keeping 3x10 Spites and dropping the Tree Revs and Dryads.

-Characters - Durthu and Drycha are great, but when you add in the Treelord ancient, wych/wraiths, and spell you end up at a whopping 1170pts in characters. I would encourage you to trim these guys down. I personally would drop the Treelord Ancient and Branchwych. The Treelord is just not worth his price right now, even with the free forest. If you MUST have the forest, then just use your extra battalion item on the Branchwraith to get the Acorn

-Other - With those changes, we can address your real issue: Combat punch. Your only heavy hitters are Durthu and Drycha, and they can't carry the entire army. I would take the 700+ points you have from the above changes and invest in some Kurnoth Hunters. They are the core strength of our army.  Alternatively, you could invest in Alarielle, as she fills a simliar role and gives you a "free" unit of Kurnoth Hunters,

Hope this helps! 

Wow, thanks a lot for your extensive comment! This helps a lot indeed. A few followup questions regarding your feedback.

I was under the impressions modelcount in the army was still important in AoS. Isn’t battleline still usefull to grab objectives? Swapping out ~15 models to ~6 to 9 less mobile units  sounds like decreasing my chance to win those objectives. 

I’m also unsure about a unit of 20 Spites. Even with the units of 10 I’m having a hard time getting everyone in combat. What’s the benefit of running a 20 man unit besides less drops/points?

I thought the Ancient was a bit to pricey in points as well (Combined with way to many points in characters...), so I guess at least he wil get cut for some Kurnoth’s. I’m not to sure about the Wych as she has been of use in my games, but maybe just swap her with the Arch-Revenant? That will also be usefull when playing more Kurnoths...

I don’t understand how Kurnoth’s and Alarielle fill the same roll tho. Could you explain that to me? I always saw her as a heavy hitter like Drycha or Durthu, but not really as a core strength of the army. Am I missing something?

 

 

[Landohammer]

19 minutes ago, Kantchill said:

Wow, thanks a lot for your extensive comment! This helps a lot indeed. A few followup questions regarding your feedback.

I was under the impressions modelcount in the army was still important in AoS. Isn’t battleline still usefull to grab objectives? Swapping out ~15 models to ~6 to 9 less mobile units  sounds like decreasing my chance to win those objectives. 

I’m also unsure about a unit of 20 Spites. Even with the units of 10 I’m having a hard time getting everyone in combat. What’s the benefit of running a 20 man unit besides less drops/points?

I thought the Ancient was a bit to pricey in points as well (Combined with way to many points in characters...), so I guess at least he wil get cut for some Kurnoth’s. I’m not to sure about the Wych as she has been of use in my games, but maybe just swap her with the Arch-Revenant? That will also be usefull when playing more Kurnoths...

I don’t understand how Kurnoth’s and Alarielle fill the same roll tho. Could you explain that to me? I always saw her as a heavy hitter like Drycha or Durthu, but not really as a core strength of the army. Am I missing something?

 

 

Model count is important to some extent, but there is a bit more to it. A larger unit is more likely to survive shooting and counter-attacks while on that objective. Multiple small units will frequently evaporate to leadership tests after just a few wounds. Many units can wipe out 10 spites in combat before they even swing! If you want your units to accomplish anything beyond being a speedbump, then you need to be able to absorb some casualties. (though speedbumps can be useful)

The Arch Revenant is fantastic, but she really only shines when you have multiple Kurnoth units (or one large unit) to buff. So if you plan on adding the hunters, then swapping out the Wych for the Arch is a great idea.

Kurnoth Hunters are awesome because they hit hard, and are survivable. They are your can-openers. Alarielle shares those traits. So if you have ~600pts leftover and need something to hit like a truck, then either Alarielle or Kurnoth Hunters are solid choices. 

 

[Tiberius501]

Thanks for the responses guys, this forum is super helpful and nice, not sure why I’ve only just found you.

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Trevelyan said:

Landohammer frequently sees things differently from me. This is one of those times. 

I find the TLA vastly superior to the standard Treelord. The generic Treelord competes directly with Kurnoth Hunters in the 200 point range. It brings a stomp and a ranged attack, but still suffers from costing as much as a unit of Kurnoths but not being a unit of Kurnoths. The only time I take a Treelord is as part of a Lords of the Clan battalion in a Gnarlroot Glade, or if I’m playing a casual game and fancy a challenge. 

“Durthu or TLA?” is like asking “apples or oranges?” One is a melee beatstick who prefers to have support to keep him alive and at optimal performance (someone has to heal the ****** and provide it with Wyldwoods) and the other is a multi-purpose wizard with enough combat potential to contribute to a fight without being able to win solo. Which you want depends on what else you have in the list. 

Haha yea we do disagree more that we agree for sure! 

To clarify, I actually think the TLA and Treelord are both bad lol.  But the Treelord is at least cheap. What really bugs me about the TLA is how his melee profile is lower than the treelord despite being 100pts more

Each time I find myself thinking about fielding a TLA, I just end up with a Branchwraith, Treelord and 20pts in my pocket.  

 

[Kantchill]

17 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Model count is important to some extent, but there is a bit more to it. A larger unit is more likely to survive shooting and counter-attacks while on that objective. Multiple small units will frequently evaporate to leadership tests after just a few wounds. Many units can wipe out 10 spites in combat before they even swing! If you want your units to accomplish anything beyond being a speedbump, then you need to be able to absorb some casualties. (though speedbumps can be useful)

The Arch Revenant is fantastic, but she really only shines when you have multiple Kurnoth units (or one large unit) to buff. So if you plan on adding the hunters, then swapping out the Wych for the Arch is a great idea.

Kurnoth Hunters are awesome because they hit hard, and are survivable. They are your can-openers. Alarielle shares those traits. So if you have ~600pts leftover and need something to hit like a truck, then either Alarielle or Kurnoth Hunters are solid choices. 

 

Thanks again! great to get this kind of feedback. 
 

I decided to buy two extra boxes of Kurnoth’s, I now have 9 in total to give the list some more punch. Hope I will finish painting them in time. 
 

I cut the Ancient, the Wych and a few Spites to make room for them. I’m gonna try a unit of 3 swords and a unit of 6 scythes.

Looking forward to see how it will work out!

 

 

[Trevelyan]

19 hours ago, Landohammer said:

Haha yea we do disagree more that we agree for sure! 

To clarify, I actually think the TLA and Treelord are both bad lol.  But the Treelord is at least cheap. What really bugs me about the TLA is how his melee profile is lower than the treelord despite being 100pts more

Each time I find myself thinking about fielding a TLA, I just end up with a Branchwraith, Treelord and 20pts in my pocket.  

We still only disagree some of the time. Besides, life would be boring if everyone agreed on everything! 

I don’t think that a melee profile has to consistently improve as points increase. The TLA isn’t a direct upgrade to the standard Treelord (that’s Durthu’s job) but a different branch to the family tree. The extra points get you a wizard with a good spell, an automatic Wyldwood and a command ability. The TLA is vastly more durable than a Branchwraith or Wych as a forward support wizard, supplementing Kurnoths with Verdurous Harmony or summoning Wyldwoods in more advantageous positions and capable of handling smaller infantry units solo. 

[HollowHills]

Just to add to some recent discussions. 

I feel like durthu is decent if you can get him in position and play defensively. I had a game where I took first turn on places of power, popped two summoned woods by the objective and teleported durthu onto one of them. Your opponent won't want to come into the wood to fight durthu (but has to) and he can't be shot or magicked down due to being in the wood. 

Unfortunately the above scenario is fair rare. Usually you need to go forward and take the fight to your opponent to win a game. 

The other problem is he is quite easy to either kill in one activation or bracket so heavily he becomes useless. You can't get look out sir or cover. 3 wounds and his sword becomes massively unpredictable, 6 or 7 and he's fairly harmless. 

If you take stuff to heal him up then you need to devote an artefact or spell and then have another model babysit. Then if he dies in one round or you get doubled turned the stuff you have taken loses a lot of utility. 

Lastly you also run the risk of him being effectively pointless due to mobility. Sure he can teleport but you need at least two woods and then it's 9 away. The 5 inch move and lack of fly means he can be screened really easily. 

So all in all I'm not sure about durthu. I'm going to keep using him for now, but I do wonder if we work best with a few little heroes rather than TLA or Durthu. 

 

[HollowHills]

Also kurnoth Hunters with swords in a Winterleaf list are amazing. 6 of them killed gotrek in a single activation yesterday with a significant amount of damage to spare. 

[Gdead909]

So whats the best way to start sylvaneth? I have been wanting an order army so I am looking into a few

[Trevelyan]

4 hours ago, HollowHills said:

Also kurnoth Hunters with swords in a Winterleaf list are amazing. 6 of them killed gotrek in a single activation yesterday with a significant amount of damage to spare. 

How did you get 6 sword hunters into combat with Gotrek? His tabletop base (as distinct from the scenic pillar in the promo photos) is only 32mm. 

That aside, 6 scythe hunters are just as effective in Winterleaf and have fewer range issues. 

[HollowHills]

1 minute ago, Trevelyan said:

How did you get 6 sword hunters into combat with Gotrek? His tabletop base (as distinct from the scenic pillar in the promo photos) is only 32mm. 

That aside, 6 scythe hunters are just as effective in Winterleaf and have fewer range issues. 

With staggered base placement I had 5 in range, 1 out. 

You lose mortals with scythes. I am tempted to get some though for the range issue. 

[Kantchill]

I want to thank @Landohammer again for the solid advice!

I tried an adjusted list with your feedback for the first time yesterday, and while I did lose the game the army felt way more reliable. I never thought these 'minor' changes would reflect that so quickly. I know one game is a bit early to jump to conclusions, but I'm going to play one more game this week and two more games next week and see if I need any more adjustments. 

The only bummer is that I miss the Ghyrstrike on Durthu now. The 2+/2+ is way better than the +1 attack from Silent Sickle, but I'm stuck with that artifact for now as I'm still running Harvestboon and no longer have the battalion for an extra artifact. I'm still not sold on switching to Winterleaf, because the Seek New Fruit ability saved my Durthu so many times... The Frozen Kernel could be fun to use on the unit of 6 Kurnoths tho. 

The Arch-Revenant didn't do anything usefull this game as well (like, absolutly nothing), so I need to play some more games to see what he can do for the Kurnoth. 

I also feel that the Spiteswam Hive is less usefull now (also because below), and that's stil 50 points. I also have 30 points to spare, so maybe that 80 points can buy me something more usefull? 

Last but not least I only have 2 casts/dispells right now. Maybe it's because I'm used to be having more, but it feels a bit lackluster... What do you guys think? 

I'm running the following list right now: 

Glade: Harvestboon

Spirit of Durthu
- The Silent Sickle
- Seek New Fruit
Drycha
- Regrowth
Branchwraith
- Throne of Vines
Arch-Revenant

20x Spite-Revenants
20x Dryads
5x Tree-Revenants

3x Kurnoth Hunters w/Sword
6x Kurnoth Hunters w/Scythe

Spiteswarm Hive

[Kantchill]

11 hours ago, Gdead909 said:

So whats the best way to start sylvaneth? I have been wanting an order army so I am looking into a few

You can't go wrong with at least 1 or 2 Start Collecting boxes, especially if you magnetize the Treelord kits wich is fairly easy (just the head and one hand). You will want the Dryads for either battleline or summoning, and the Branchwych you got spare can be converted to a Branchwraith (I used some spare Dryad arms and that's it). 

 

[HollowHills]

31 minutes ago, Kantchill said:

. The Frozen Kernel could be fun to use on the unit of 6 Kurnoths tho. 

This wins me a lot of games. The amount of damage you can put out is incredible. 

The frozen kernal can be really effective on 20 spites too (as long as you can get most of them in range, best used vs an enemy horde or tightly packed area). 3 attacks each, 6s count as 2, 3 3 - 1. The shear weight of attacks is great, especially against ethereal. If you have an arch rev it's 4 attacks. 

Remember you can spend a cp to get rerolls of 1 to hit also. 

[Kantchill]

Hmm, that does sound prety strong indeed... And to be fair if I position my Arch-rev correctly the most important units (Kurnoths) wil allready have re-roll 1's to hit without needing the Harvestboon ability. 

I'm more scared of Durthu being killed because he can't run away after combat tho. The My Heart is Ice only works after receiving damage so that doesn't increase his survivabiliy either...

What are your thoughts on that? 

[Trevelyan]

12 hours ago, HollowHills said:

With staggered base placement I had 5 in range, 1 out. 

You lose mortals with scythes. I am tempted to get some though for the range issue. 

You’ve just said that the sword hunters were overkill anyway. The mortal wounds are nice, but really only balances for the fact that you’ll almost always have fewer Hunters in range than of you had taken the Scythes.

Having an extra Kurnoth Hunter in range makes up for not getting a mortal on a 6 to wound, especially once you start piling on the buffs from the Arch Rev and/or Frozen Kernel. Having two extra hunters in range for those situations where your opponent doesn’t allow you to surround a high value model is vastly superior.