Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[swarmofseals]

10 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

With your calcs how do sword hunters compare to dryads?

Offensively they have a WDR of .085. That's including the mortal wounds from the trample ability. That probably should be dinged slightly since the trample happens at the end of combat after the enemy has a chance to hit back. So they are significantly better than Dryads on offense during your opponent's turn and better during your turn but not by as much.

Defensively, without the thicket ability their PPEW is 7.33/9.78/12.22/14.67, and with their thicket ability it's 3.67/6.45/10.18/14.67. For comparison, Dryads are 4.46/5.58/6.67/6.67 for <12 models, 3.35/4.47/5.58/6.67 for >12 models, and 3/4/5/6 for a Massive Regiment (including hit penalty for wyldwood proximity).

So basically Kurnoths are a lot less efficient defensively. In melee against rend 0 they are a bit better than <12 model dryads, but in pretty much all other cases the Dryads are better and often FAR better. Against shooting and high rend/mortal wound melee Dryads are basically double the efficiency. 

 

As far as your argument against 30 model Dryad squads goes, I think you are kinda contradicting yourself. You talk about their "clumsiness" and then say that "30 dryads in one place also means they aren't in another place." The whole point of area denial is to maximize the amount of space your unit occupies in order to restrict your opponent's movement. Yes, 30 dryads are going to be in "one place" but that place can be an enormous swath of the table. This forces your opponent to engage those Dryads, which is exactly what you want. He can't just engage them with throwaway units because your Dryads will chew through those and take next to no damage. That means he will need to commit real resources to attacking them, which is exactly what you want. If your opponent is engaging your most defensively efficient units then you are at an advantage. 

Of course I'm not saying you should never take anything but 30 man Dryad units -- far from it. There is definitely a place for speedbumps. The point of a 30 model squad isn't to be a speedbump -- it's to force your opponent into a tarpit. When you are looking to tarpit, being large and unwieldy is less of a problem.

I'd also add that one advantage of the 30 model Dryad squad is that it can plausibly be a hammer and an anvil in one. When a 20 model squad gets charged by a serious threat, it's reasonably likely to dip under the 12 model threshold after a single round of combat (not certain, of course, but pretty likely). A 30 model squad is much less likely to get below 12 in a single round. That allows you to follow up by casting Shield of Thorns on the already engaged Dryad unit, which puts your opponent in a really awkward position. First, they likely have to just sit there and take a round of attacks from the Dryads and waste their own unit by choosing not to attack with it at all. If they attack the Dryads, they will shred themselves on the shield. Then, during their turn, they pretty much have to retreat and thus waste yet another turn. If they don't keep the Dryads engaged with at least something, you will likely be able to just charge the same unit again on your next turn. Either way your Dryads are doing their job -- taking up space and wasting your opponent's resources. If you further combine it with a Treelord from a household battalion, then you are even more golden as retreat isn't an option anymore.

 

[scrubyandwells]

30 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

As far as your argument against 30 model Dryad squads goes, I think you are kinda contradicting yourself. You talk about their "clumsiness" and then say that "30 dryads in one place also means they aren't in another place." The whole point of area denial is to maximize the amount of space your unit occupies in order to restrict your opponent's movement. Yes, 30 dryads are going to be in "one place" but that place can be an enormous swath of the table. This forces your opponent to engage those Dryads, which is exactly what you want. He can't just engage them with throwaway units because your Dryads will chew through those and take next to no damage. That means he will need to commit real resources to attacking them, which is exactly what you want. If your opponent is engaging your most defensively efficient units then you are at an advantage. 

Of course I'm not saying you should never take anything but 30 man Dryad units -- far from it. There is definitely a place for speedbumps. The point of a 30 model squad isn't to be a speedbump -- it's to force your opponent into a tarpit. When you are looking to tarpit, being large and unwieldy is less of a problem.

I'd also add that one advantage of the 30 model Dryad squad is that it can plausibly be a hammer and an anvil in one. When a 20 model squad gets charged by a serious threat, it's reasonably likely to dip under the 12 model threshold after a single round of combat (not certain, of course, but pretty likely). A 30 model squad is much less likely to get below 12 in a single round. That allows you to follow up by casting Shield of Thorns on the already engaged Dryad unit, which puts your opponent in a really awkward position. First, they likely have to just sit there and take a round of attacks from the Dryads and waste their own unit by choosing not to attack with it at all. If they attack the Dryads, they will shred themselves on the shield. Then, during their turn, they pretty much have to retreat and thus waste yet another turn. If they don't keep the Dryads engaged with at least something, you will likely be able to just charge the same unit again on your next turn. Either way your Dryads are doing their job -- taking up space and wasting your opponent's resources. If you further combine it with a Treelord from a household battalion, then you are even more golden as retreat isn't an option anymore.

Excellent points.

Just in case anyone hasn't seen it, Tom Lyons's TGA post on his Nurgle list tactics/playstyle is one of the best examples of some of the things @swarmofseals is talking about.

I think this kind of thing is going to become a lot more common in the game, and it is something we can do reasonably well.

 

 

[Aezeal]

2 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

Offensively they have a WDR of .085. That's including the mortal wounds from the trample ability. That probably should be dinged slightly since the trample happens at the end of combat after the enemy has a chance to hit back. So they are significantly better than Dryads on offense during your opponent's turn and better during your turn but not by as much.

Defensively, without the thicket ability their PPEW is 7.33/9.78/12.22/14.67, and with their thicket ability it's 3.67/6.45/10.18/14.67. For comparison, Dryads are 4.46/5.58/6.67/6.67 for <12 models, 3.35/4.47/5.58/6.67 for >12 models, and 3/4/5/6 for a Massive Regiment (including hit penalty for wyldwood proximity).

So basically Kurnoths are a lot less efficient defensively. In melee against rend 0 they are a bit better than <12 model dryads, but in pretty much all other cases the Dryads are better and often FAR better. Against shooting and high rend/mortal wound melee Dryads are basically double the efficiency. 

 

As far as your argument against 30 model Dryad squads goes, I think you are kinda contradicting yourself. You talk about their "clumsiness" and then say that "30 dryads in one place also means they aren't in another place." The whole point of area denial is to maximize the amount of space your unit occupies in order to restrict your opponent's movement. Yes, 30 dryads are going to be in "one place" but that place can be an enormous swath of the table. This forces your opponent to engage those Dryads, which is exactly what you want. He can't just engage them with throwaway units because your Dryads will chew through those and take next to no damage. That means he will need to commit real resources to attacking them, which is exactly what you want. If your opponent is engaging your most defensively efficient units then you are at an advantage. 

Of course I'm not saying you should never take anything but 30 man Dryad units -- far from it. There is definitely a place for speedbumps. The point of a 30 model squad isn't to be a speedbump -- it's to force your opponent into a tarpit. When you are looking to tarpit, being large and unwieldy is less of a problem.

I'd also add that one advantage of the 30 model Dryad squad is that it can plausibly be a hammer and an anvil in one. When a 20 model squad gets charged by a serious threat, it's reasonably likely to dip under the 12 model threshold after a single round of combat (not certain, of course, but pretty likely). A 30 model squad is much less likely to get below 12 in a single round. That allows you to follow up by casting Shield of Thorns on the already engaged Dryad unit, which puts your opponent in a really awkward position. First, they likely have to just sit there and take a round of attacks from the Dryads and waste their own unit by choosing not to attack with it at all. If they attack the Dryads, they will shred themselves on the shield. Then, during their turn, they pretty much have to retreat and thus waste yet another turn. If they don't keep the Dryads engaged with at least something, you will likely be able to just charge the same unit again on your next turn. Either way your Dryads are doing their job -- taking up space and wasting your opponent's resources. If you further combine it with a Treelord from a household battalion, then you are even more golden as retreat isn't an option anymore.

 

30 dryads in 3 x10 can obviously cover at least the same and probably a larger area. If they are spread out then the dryads will not be able to return that much attacks against anything attacking them since they will be spread out and can only pile in 3" which is not a lot if you have a line of 45 inch. Especially if you are also stringing back to a forest. You can do area denial AND be able to attack with most of those models if you get attacked in a side. Involving shield of thorns in the discussion is hardly relevant since it's not like they seem to be that common in sylvaneth armies, not even in lists mentioned in here. Also the bonus of having +1 save longer is probably negated quite a bit having a large chance of never getting a cover save.  The only think that favors is in that regard is the fact you might put the mystic shield on them, however most rounds after turn 1 I'm putting that on a TLA, TL, alarielle. And all extra stuff they give is nice.. but it's still a lot of points in one place. 

 Anyway.. you try the 30 man unit and see how you think it works. I think I'll be putting the points into Treelords in my list  

 

A out your calculations: have you considered adjusting the defensive formula to include points. Like a ratio how many damage would destroy 100 points of a certain unit. It might give a bit more insight since wounds are not all equally expensive.

[swarmofseals]

48 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

30 dryads in 3 x10 can obviously cover at least the same and probably a larger area. If they are spread out then the dryads will not be able to return that much attacks against anything attacking them since they will be spread out and can only pile in 3" which is not a lot if you have a line of 45 inch. Especially if you are also stringing back to a forest. You can do area denial AND be able to attack with most of those models if you get attacked in a side. Involving shield of thorns in the discussion is hardly relevant since it's not like they seem to be that common in sylvaneth armies, not even in lists mentioned in here. Also the bonus of having +1 save longer is probably negated quite a bit having a large chance of never getting a cover save.  The only think that favors is in that regard is the fact you might put the mystic shield on them, however most rounds after turn 1 I'm putting that on a TLA, TL, alarielle. And all extra stuff they give is nice.. but it's still a lot of points in one place. 

 Anyway.. you try the 30 man unit and see how you think it works. I think I'll be putting the points into Treelords in my list  

3x10 will have a lot of models idle as well, unless your opponent attacks multiple units at once. They also can't move very far from a wyldwood while retaining the bonus because they don't have enough models to balloon string. The 30 model unit can occupy a lot of space far away from a wyldwood while still getting that bonus. Furthermore, small squads are liable to lose most of their number if they get attacked by anything significant. That leaves you with little to nothing to strike back with. With a larger squad you remove models that are far away from the combat, allowing you to pile in and attack back with more. Even so, the point of area denial isn't to attack with a maximal number of models all the time. In fact, concentrating damage is basically the diametric opposite of area denial.

Shield of Thorns is totally relevant. I'm not telling anyone to modify their list to include 30 model dryad blocks. I'm suggesting what I think is a viable and perhaps even powerful strategy. Just because something isn't common in army lists doesn't mean it shouldn't be common (and furthermore, nothing is really "common" yet as people are only just in the preliminary stages of building for the new GHB).

And yeah, the 30 model squad can benefit from a cover save. It won't right away, but once it gets reduced down a bit it can easily pull back into cover. 

There are also loads of other reasons to want more bodies. One of the big advantages of the Treelord models is that their main attacks feature a rare 3" attack range. That allows you to put fully two rows of dryad bodies between you and the enemy. You can do this with 10 model squads, but it won't take long for the enemy to break through and get to grips with the behemoth. With a larger squad you have plenty of models to remove before your buffer is gone. 

If you want to play a monster mash list with Alarielle, 3 other behemoths and minimal battleline then by all means go ahead and do so. But don't think that it's the only viable strategy.

 

@scrubyandwells yes, that post is exactly what I was thinking about! It's a great one, and people should definitely take the time to read it. 

[Nico]

Fully 3 rows of Dryads between the Treelord and the enemy if all touching. 

[Aezeal]

7 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

3x10 will have a lot of models idle as well, unless your opponent attacks multiple units at once. They also can't move very far from a wyldwood while retaining the bonus because they don't have enough models to balloon string. The 30 model unit can occupy a lot of space far away from a wyldwood while still getting that bonus. Furthermore, small squads are liable to lose most of their number if they get attacked by anything significant. That leaves you with little to nothing to strike back with. With a larger squad you remove models that are far away from the combat, allowing you to pile in and attack back with more. Even so, the point of area denial isn't to attack with a maximal number of models all the time. In fact, concentrating damage is basically the diametric opposite of area denial.

Shield of Thorns is totally relevant. I'm not telling anyone to modify their list to include 30 model dryad blocks. I'm suggesting what I think is a viable and perhaps even powerful strategy. Just because something isn't common in army lists doesn't mean it shouldn't be common (and furthermore, nothing is really "common" yet as people are only just in the preliminary stages of building for the new GHB).

And yeah, the 30 model squad can benefit from a cover save. It won't right away, but once it gets reduced down a bit it can easily pull back into cover. 

There are also loads of other reasons to want more bodies. One of the big advantages of the Treelord models is that their main attacks feature a rare 3" attack range. That allows you to put fully two rows of dryad bodies between you and the enemy. You can do this with 10 model squads, but it won't take long for the enemy to break through and get to grips with the behemoth. With a larger squad you have plenty of models to remove before your buffer is gone. 

If you want to play a monster mash list with Alarielle, 3 other behemoths and minimal battleline then by all means go ahead and do so. But don't think that it's the only viable strategy.

 

@scrubyandwells yes, that post is exactly what I was thinking about! It's a great one, and people should definitely take the time to read it. 

No I know there will be multiple good options. And I'm not at all convinced the monster mash is optimal, far from it. I agree with all your arguments in so far that if you can use the unit that way it can be very effective. It was just that I think in general it also has a few drawbacks that have to be taken into account, especially in a multiple objective scenario where you need bodies in several places to claim them, where there may be no Wyldwoods,  and points are limited. In a s enario with few objectives on the otherhand it will be great to put a wyldwood with 30 drayds there. 

 

1 hour ago, Aezeal said:

About your calculations: have you considered adjusting the defensive formula to include points. Like a ratio how many damage would destroy 100 points of a certain unit. It might give a bit more insight since wounds are not all equally expensive.

 

[swarmofseals]

@Aezeal my defensive formula does exactly that. What the number represents is the number of points you pay for one effective wound against the given damage type. 

[Mirage8112]

6 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

While I hear your concerns about 30 man dryad squads, I think they are somewhat unfounded.

I didn't say they were big problems, and you can see I did include a block of 30 for my ironbark list above. But even so, It's worth being realistic about some of the difficulties moving large blocks of troops around the table. I often hear complaints along the lines that people don't have enough room to put down 2 full wyldwoods (3 bases each) and even if they do, they really struggle to find a spot for a third. Tables are often full of terrain, models, and often a wide portion of the battlefield is virtually empty and worthless (like, say, the back corners). in the areas that matter, things can get crowded fast, and when movement and placement is as critical as it is for sylvaneth I'm understandably apprehensive about putting down a big, fat block of models and ****** up my careful considered strategy of weaponized geometry.

 

6 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

You make a good point that the enemy has a lot of frontage to engage and can avoid a buried Treelord, but I'm not sure that this is a problem. You can use the positioning of the Treelord to force your opponent to attack from a disadvantageous angle, and you can remove casualties in such a way as to allow the treelord to move into range for subsequent combat rounds.

This is one of those "proof is in the pudding" situations that we can't really argue about because math isn't involved. We might be able to force the enemy to attack from a bad angle, but then again perhaps not. It will depend entirely on the terrain layout, army make-up turn order ect ect. 

For example, here's the problem as I see it. I often plan on bringing the dryad+treelord bunker out from the enclaves on the first or second turn. bringing 30 dryads down almost guarantees that the unit will spill out from the wyldwood into the surrounding area. Between having to stay 9" away from the enemy and within 3" of a wyldwood, 30 dryads could very possibly prevent any future units coming down since they won't be able to be placed thanks to space restrictions. Granted I can bring the treelord down first, but it cuts down my options and forces me to act in a predictable way.

Not a deal breaker. But it makes me nervous. 
 

6 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

30 Dryads should be tough enough to last for multiple rounds against all but the most concentrated offense, and if your opponent is dedicating that many resources to clearing your Dryads then you are likely going to be at a big tactical advantage elsewhere in the board due to the tremendous defensive efficiency of the Dryads. They really don't need the treelord stomp to be defensively efficient. They are ludicrously efficient with the stomp, but even without it they are very good.

Oh sure they'll last. That's what dryads are good at. But again, so do 20 dryads. I've never lost a full unit of 20 (except once, to a bunch of ironguts) because I tend to use them defensively with plenty of support. Given the Treelords look to be picking up some of the slack left over from the repointing of hunters, double stomps now are totally a thing. I've used them before and if you've never seen an opponents deathstar shut down thanks to -3 to hit; It's quite a thing. It's also not as if I'm taking the Treelord+TLA expressly for this combo, it's just that I like those two units they tend to show up in my lists anyway. 

I might also point out that pairing 20 dryads with a Treelord doesn't just help the dryads. It helps the treelord as well. As you pointed out, 30 dryads on their own don't really need the Treelord to be effective, and I still have some concerns about effective placement with that many bodies/frontage. So it would make sense to run the dryads on their own without support. However, the Treelord on his own isn't as hard to shift as one backed by 20 dryads. In fact, Treelords on their own are vulnerable to just about any of the standard counters for Behemoths. I have never, ever lost a Treelord in a Dryad bunker. i have lost Treelords that got caught out in the open more than a few times. 
 

6 hours ago, Aezeal said:

7 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

I still have no idea why anybody would want to run dryads in 10's unless they're required to take a certain number of dryad units (Winterleaf) and didn't have the points for a larger unit size. Everything Dryads can do in 10's T-rev's can do faster, cheaper and better. Furthermore, the five extra wounds don't count for very much, since anything that will wipe a unit of 5 T-Rev's will certainly wipe a group of 10 dryads (with battleshock), or leave their numbers so depleted they're virtually useless. 

I think this is not true, I actually think it's completely the otherway around. I'll try to back this up with numbers.

-3 wounds on 5 revenants might mean they get whiped out in battleshock: not so for dryads, who might loose a guy more but will still be around.

-And even without battleshock they lost 60% of their already mediocre damage output while dryads loose much less. 

Oh you like Dryads are better than T-rev's? There's a shocker. 

Tree Revenants can reroll their battleshock die, so it's unlikely they will flee from 3 wounds. 4 might do it, but even then it's a 75% chance at least 1 stays around. Dryads cannot reroll their die, and so if they take 3-4 wounds you'll probably lose another 1-2. It's difficult to say since it's so swingy. Either way both units tend to stick around for 1-2 turns. (neither group tend to survive past 2 turns). 

And I might point out, you don't take T-rev's for damage, you take them for mobility. Who cares if they don't kill anything? They are there to be annoying and occasionally they might kill something. Learn to love chaff and they'll never let you down. Complain endlessly about how they don't do enough damage and you'll miss out on a really really effective tool in our toolbox. Hell, hammers work great on nails, but not so well on bolts. I could imagine you running around your house complaining how useless hammers are because they never get the bolt all the way into the wall....


 

[swarmofseals]

55 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

stuff

Yeah, I very much hear your points about massed Dryads. It'll take playtesting to work out for sure. And yeah, I'm a huge fan of Treelords surrounded by Dryads. Heck, isn't that how Sylvaneth is supposed to look on the table?

 

Another point to add regarding Tree-revs: threat of activation is a real thing. One of the things you learn when you play a lot of Magic is that if a card has an expensive ability on it you can still get a lot of value even without ever activating the ability. If you CAN use the ability, your opponent has to play around it. The same idea works for Tree-revs. Simply the threat of picking a support hero, war machine crew or what not off the back edge of the table means that your opponent is restricted in what he can do. Paying a mere 80 points to restrain your opponent's options is a great value even if it does nothing else all game! 

On the pure math I still am not loving Tree-revs, but you've certainly long since convinced me of their value. Gotta keep working on @Aezeal 

[DantePQ]

I just want to echo what Mirage has been saying, Tree-Revs are amazing unit, won me many games. When used right with their teleport, ability to re-roll single dice and extra pile-in are one of the most rewarding units in the game I guess, just you need to know what you're doing with them 

[scrubyandwells]

Looking at the new Pitched Battles, it does appear any effort to optimize an all-comers sylvaneth list will likely need at least one x30 block.

Since a lot of factions now have teleporting (and incredible mobility in general), I suspect one frequent list-building piece will be ensuring a way to teleport a x30 unit into the enemy's zone for objective scoring, such as tunneling 30 Vulkite Berzerkers with rock-solid durability.

The scenarios with the 20-or-more-model rule are Total Conquest and Battle for the Pass. We'll see players teleporting in x30 blocks for both, especially Battle for the Pass, which is a modified Border War that still provides 4 victory points when capturing the objective in your opponent's zone.

With that in mind, below is a modified version of an earlier list.

The 30 Eternal Guard's role would likely be to sit on one of the objectives in our zone in Total Conquest, and sit on the sole, critical objective in our zone in Battle for the Pass.

It still has glaring flaws, e.g., ranged output via high rend (e.g. KO) and/or mortal wounds (e.g. Tzeentch) would likely tear it apart. 

It's also almost void of long-range threat, which had been a key feature of many competitive tree lists in GH16.

One of the 3 KH Scythes could be swapped for 3 KH Greatbows, although I'd worry about not having enough combat output at that point.

Ancient
Drycha
Branchwych
Waywatcher
30 Eternal Guard
10 Dryads
10 Dryads
5 TRevs
3 KH Scythes
3 KH Scythes
Treelord
Household
 

[Nico]

Quote

Ancient
Drycha
Branchwych
Waywatcher
30 Eternal Guard
10 Dryads
10 Dryads
5 TRevs
3 KH Scythes
3 KH Scythes
Treelord
Household

I'm alarmed by how little you are getting here. Not convinced Household is worth it just to farm an acorn (esp since the Ancient cannot be in it, so no trapping a unit with a model it cannot kill).

[scrubyandwells]

30 minutes ago, Nico said:

I'm alarmed by how little you are getting here. Not convinced Household is worth it just to farm an acorn (esp since the Ancient cannot be in it, so no trapping a unit with a model it cannot kill).

Yeah it's.... Well, I think if one is looking for a high-degree of difficulty, they're going to be comfortable w/ sylvaneth in GH17.

I'm rather fond of the faction...and will play it regardless of where it stands in the meta, but certainly finding it tough trying to come up w/ sufficient TAC lists.

It's extremely early days, though, so TBD, as always.

[scrubyandwells]

9 minutes ago, Nico said:

I'm alarmed by how little you are getting here. Not convinced Household is worth it just to farm an acorn (esp since the Ancient cannot be in it, so no trapping a unit with a model it cannot kill).

Treelord w/ Mystic Shield could still perform that role, and deliver more damage output (on avg) than the TLA.

[scrubyandwells]

Another thought: MSU Eternal Guard for area denial and roadblocks, especially to keep 20-or-more-model enemy units outside of 6" of your objectives. At 80 for 10, they're a pretty good buy. On paper, I suspect they'd be better than 5 TRevs for area-denying and roadblocking in your territory.

With that said, I may be overthinking this: Dropping a Wyldwood and putting a bunch of Dryads in it, maybe backed up by a support unit, should still be a pretty strong way of holding onto our objectives in our territory and keeping enemy models outside of 6".

[Aezeal]

13 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

@Aezeal my defensive formula does exactly that. What the number represents is the number of points you pay for one effective wound against the given damage type. 

Yeah but does it also take into account the point cost of that wound (which is ofc different per unit)?

 

4 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Another thought: MSU Eternal Guard for area denial and roadblocks, especially to keep 20-or-more-model enemy units outside of 6" of your objectives. At 80 for 10, they're a pretty good buy. On paper, I suspect they'd be better than 5 TRevs for area-denying and roadblocking in your territory.

With that said, I may be overthinking this: Dropping a Wyldwood and putting a bunch of Dryads in it, maybe backed up by a support unit, should still be a pretty strong way of holding onto our objectives in our territory and keeping enemy models outside of 6".

This is exactly what I usually use dryads for but EG being cheaper and probably better in defense makes them a prime choice. Ofcourse you'd have to take them next to battleline so less points then for non battleline stuff... Assuming non battleline is more effective than battleline (but I'm not sure that is really true in any case) it really depends on if you need that roll badly. So while I think EG are a better unit for the task I'm not sure I'd want them if I already have battle line. Also dryads don't seem that much worse so I'd probably prefer to spend ally points on something our army really lacks.

 

5 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

Treelord w/ Mystic Shield could still perform that role, and deliver more damage output (on avg) than the TLA.

I've found that relying on shield is quite a different thing than having oaken armor. The shield can be used in addition to the armor if you have it and often when not using oaken armor I've wanted to have it in 2 places. Not to mention I've failed it or seen it dispelled in crucial moments.  Having said that I still think our batallions are quite expensive.

[Dragon10]

List 1

1 x Treelord Anicient 300
1 x branchwych 80

5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Tree Revs 80

3 x Hunters bows  220
3 x hunters bows 220
3 x hunters sythes 220
3 x hunters sythes 220
3 x hunters swords 220

1 x waywatcher lord 100
20 x eternal guard 160

 

list 2

1 x Durthu 400
1 x branchwych 80

1 x branchwych 80

5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Spite Revs 80

3 x Hunters bows  220
3 x hunters bows 220
3 x hunters sythes 220
3 x hunters sythes 220

20 x eternal guard 160
20 x eternal guard 160

 

Thinking the eternal guard will be able to hold objectives and il create more woods for them to go in

 

Tree and spite Revs for road blocks 

 

waywatcher / bow hunters for some range damage , would like more but can't find points 

 

hunters with sythes and durthu for damage output 

[swarmofseals]

2 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Yeah but does it also take into account the point cost of that wound (which is ofc different per unit)?

I really have no idea what you are asking. When you say "cost of that wound" do you really mean the cost of the incoming damage? Because to do that then you'd need to come up with a different number for every possible attacking and defending unit combination.

When I refer to "wounds" I am referring to the defensive characteristic which determines how much damage a model can take before it dies. Effective Wounds refers to the total number of damage it would take to remove the model on average factoring armor and any other saves. So a model with 1 wound and a 4+ save would have 2 effective wounds against rend 0, 1.5 effective wounds against rend 1, 1.2 effective wounds against rend 2 and 1 effective wound against mortals. If the model costs 8 points, then its points per effective wound would be 4/5.33/6.7/8 against rend 0/rend 1/rend 2/mortal wounds.

[vesco]

Hi guys i've made a pure Sylvaneth list for 1500
Ancient, Ghyran, Briarsheath, Regrowth - 300 
Branchwych, circlet, reaping - 80 
10 dryads - 100 
5 tree revs - 80 
5 tree revs - 80 
3 bow kurnoth - 220 
3 bow kurnoth - 220 
3 bow kurnoth - 220 ( or maybe scythe )
Household - 70 
Gnarlroot - 180
Tot:1550

Ressing those kurnoth with the spell taken from Gnarlroot
What do you guys think ?
 

[Nico]

Taking a Battalion in a smaller game than 2,000 is even more of a hit than it already is for 2,000 points. I would dump at least Gnarlroot. I don't rate Bow Hunters at the new cost at all - I would take Waywatcher (heroes) as allies instead.

[vesco]

dem that means buying some new stuff which is for sure gw main pourpose.
yeah i know that kurnoth hunter kinda sucks now, but i bought them before gh2 wasn't even mentioned so yeah it sucks a lot...

[Popisdead]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

 I don't rate Bow Hunters at the new cost at all - I would take Waywatcher (heroes) as allies instead.

That comment alone is huge.

[scrubyandwells]

3 hours ago, vesco said:

Hi guys i've made a pure Sylvaneth list for 1500
Ancient, Ghyran, Briarsheath, Regrowth - 300 
Branchwych, circlet, reaping - 80 
10 dryads - 100 
5 tree revs - 80 
5 tree revs - 80 
3 bow kurnoth - 220 
3 bow kurnoth - 220 
3 bow kurnoth - 220 ( or maybe scythe )
Household - 70 
Gnarlroot - 180
Tot:1550

Ressing those kurnoth with the spell taken from Gnarlroot
What do you guys think ?
 

Hi, looks great for casual, narrative, and casual matched play. For tournament/competitive play, I suspect you'll struggle with it's lack of bodies, since GH17 seems to be placing an even higher premium on the significance of more bodies on the table.

[scrubyandwells]

6 hours ago, Dragon10 said:

List 1

1 x Treelord Anicient 300
1 x branchwych 80

5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Tree Revs 80

3 x Hunters bows  220
3 x hunters bows 220
3 x hunters sythes 220
3 x hunters sythes 220
3 x hunters swords 220

1 x waywatcher lord 100
20 x eternal guard 160

list 2

1 x Durthu 400
1 x branchwych 80

1 x branchwych 80

5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Tree Revs 80
5 x Spite Revs 80

3 x Hunters bows  220
3 x hunters bows 220
3 x hunters sythes 220
3 x hunters sythes 220

20 x eternal guard 160
20 x eternal guard 160

Yeah those are pretty interesting lists.

You've got a little bit of everything, which is certainly my own bias from a playstyle view... A bit of everything worked well for us in GH16, although things may be different in GH17.

Both of those lists could struggle in Duality of Death, depending on the matchup, although that might be a scenario where you could scale back, since there's only one scenario of its kind, whereas there's multiple scenarios oriented around model count. 

I do wish they would've lowered Big D, even a little, since he's such a high-variance / low-reliability model, and 400pts is a big price to pay when he goes in at a crucial period in the game and...whiffs. 

I like the look of #1 quite a bit more, since you've got the TLA as general for the still-quite-important RR 1's to save + 2 wizards probably for loading out Regrowth and Verdant Blessing.

Similar to Nico's view, I'm skeptical KH Greatbows are worth 220 (...which isn't a new skepticism, this was expressed during feedback), especially if running them outside Gnarlroot with no change to bring KH back via Verdurous Harmony.

So I'd probably drop one of the bows and maybe go with 1 more Waywatcher and maybe a Venator for legitimate long-range threat, high mobility + solid save, and of course the chance at sniping a key support Hero or what not via Star-Fated Arrow. 

Alternatively, Azyros is an interesting option for moving him within 10" of an enemy unit you want to focus-fire, allowing all your shooting to RR 1's to hit.

Having a hard time getting away from Eternal Guard. Along with Dryads, they're our best bet for getting enough bodies on the table. They're 40pts cheaper, though, than Dryads @ 20, and 60pts cheaper @ 30.

Would love to hear from @swarmofseals and/or @Mirage8112 on the math, but at a glance, Eternal Guard look reasonably comparable to Dryads, specifically for the purposes of defending objectives in your territory, so if they're a little cheaper, that's extra points we have to put elsewhere.

[scrubyandwells]

Put this together last night, still trying to find an Alarielle list for competing (at least decently) in all 6 of the new scenarios, again just from a desire to take her to events with a reasonably-viable list. Also have 2x10 Dryads, 1x5 TRevs, and 2x3 Scythes already in the collection, so that's the deep tactical rationale for that...

• Alarielle
• Ancient
• Waywatcher
• Venator
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 TRevs
• 3 KH Scythes
• 3 KH Scythes
• 20 Eternal Guard

1. Alarielle + Venator provide some legitimate long-range threat, backed up by Ancient + Waywatcher w/ respectable threat range.

2. 20 Eternal Guard for sitting on an objective in our territory and zoning it out 6" when needed.

3. 2x10 Dryads for a range of utility -- screens, pairing w/ 3 Scythes in a wood, keeping them in enclaves for late-game scoring, forcing opponent to keep units on objectives, and all kinds of other things.

Also think 2x10 Dryads could be significant for getting more models on objectives because that's 20 bodies vs TRev/SpiteRev's 10 bodies.