Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Nico]

Largely agree with all of the above 4 posts (like cap hit).

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It's true the shouldn't use a or any in the rules. They should use things like: all, one, one or more etc

I see where you're coming from. One tension or force coming the other way is that if you make the rules too legalistic, then this subconsciously drains fun out of the game. So I admire what they've done in terms of conciseness and levity.

The FAQs were very good. I can imagine that they take a long time, because of inadvertent consequences elsewhere and other issues. There aren't too many areas that are crying out for an answer at the moment. 

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An official FAQ is a bonus, but if TOs can just start ruling on it maybe we can reach a consensus and at least have reliably expectations 

Yes.

However, expect this nerf to start recurring:

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Q. What is ‘move as if it is the movement phase’?
A. This means you move, using your moment characteristic, as you would in the movement phase. You CANNOT for
example, in the hero phase use an ability that says ‘do xxx in the movement phase’

This is from the Masters Pack 2016 (which came out this morning). A similar rule applied to Blood & Glory. This will likely be copied at other events.

This seems to be squarely aimed at the Free Spirits battalion. You can throw that plan (coming onto the table using Free Spirits plus Forest Spirits and also the Free Spirits plus Navigate Realmroots combo) in the bin (as predicted above). This also cures the Navigate Realmroots imbalance (again as predicted). This makes Free Spirits a non-alpha strike battalion and far less useful. It was probably undercosted.

Unfortunately (as feared) it also hits the Sneak Attack rule in Dreadwood Wargrove (which is a really harsh nerf and is making me reconsider my army, especially since it's already an unpopular list/Battalion which is the bespoke alpha strike list). Any nerf should be specific to the Free Spirits Battalion! Firstly for certainty (the rule above is open to interpretation) and secondly for balance reasons. 

I don't think it stops the Bonesplitterz doing the double/treble move in the hero phase with the Kunning Rukk (which is fair enough - the problem with Arrer Boyz is the model cap is far too high and the unit cost too low).

Also this one, because Death are so hated because they can now play Defensive grind (the new Nurgle with rend - which can be disheartening to play against):

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Q. Does the Ring of Immortality cost reinforcement points to use
A. Yes

 

[kozokus]

37 minutes ago, Nico said:

Q. Does the Ring of Immortality cost reinforcement points to use
A. Yes

At first, i was happy with return of the Ring of the Carstein. That was before i faced a previously dead VLOZD taking a sip of red liquid with a big smile.

That said, i tend to be angry with TO's personnal view of the game and homerules/faq of tournaments.

[Aezeal]

I prefer GW to make the rules. If things need to be adjusted it should be through adjustment of point values preferably.

[Nico]

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That was before i faced a previously dead VLOZD taking a sip of red liquid with a big smile.

I know which I would rather deal with out of the VLoZD or the Stonelord with Battlebrew. The VLoZD doesn't hit reliably unless it uses its buff on itself (not ideal) - it's a moderately fast tank and ward save projector which you should just avoid and retreat away from or chaff up. The Stonelord on Battlebrew is similarly or even more tanky, but with a single swig puts out an average of 25 wounds to a 4+ save on the charge and a bit more on a double swig.

That's more than any other single model (without external buffs) in the game except Gordrakk who is at 28 and 700 points and a plate for a base. Nagash is about 10.5 (ignoring spells to be fair), Mannfred is about 11. Stompy from memory is about 18 and the Magma Dragon is similar (depends a lot on the target of the breath attack).

The double swig also helps against enemy debuffs.

The Stonelord is also capable of doing a first turn alpha strike (unlike the VLoZD assuming it has the Ring).

However, I can see why it's disheartening to waste effort trying to kill the VLoZD only to have it pop up somewhere else and go score an objective. 

The Cursed Book is another solid option for Death.

The problem is that Death's Allegiance Pack is intentionally the best (Ward Save), to compensate for them having fewer units than Order have battalions (I haven't counted). 

[Aezeal]

Alarielle and her spells do quite some damage too... or is that my imagination.

But battlebrew should be once per battle or exclude monsters or behemoths. I guess the same goes for that undead stuff you are talking about but which I don't know.

[Nico]

Work has calmed down (not working today and 3.5 days until holiday), so got around to listening to Episode 7 of Scruby & Wells (the Rob/Rufio interview regarding Warhammer Live) while painting Drycha Hamadreth (nearly there). Really good show. Well worth listening to both in general and for Sylvaneth specific content (Rob is doing well with his Sylvaneth in events).

[Nico]

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I read this the other way; it actually doesn't clear it up I don't think haha

I think you're right! He's disagreeing with Les isn't he? I listened to Facehammer shortly before and assumed he was agreeing with Les. Slapping face to wake self up. To be fair, we changed topic about 5 times since then. I was so convinced it was going to be ruled against Sylvaneth that I must missed the "any".

 

On 12/16/2016 at 11:37 AM, Nico said:

If someone at GW wants to FAQ it then please do so,

 

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Hi All,

We have spoken about this rule today and feel the intent is clear in that all of the Citadel Woods need to be within 1" of any of the other Citadel Woods making up the Sylvaneth Wyldwood. 

I hope this clears thing up for you all. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nico]

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Alarielle and her spells do quite some damage too... or is that my imagination.

I make it 9.2 damage to a 4+ save with just her pew pew and her melee attacks (ignoring the Talon effect). Throw in the 2 mortal wounds for an enemy unit charged in cover (impact hits from Living Battering Ram) and you're up to only 11.2 damage on average. The spells (Metamorphosis and Arcane Bolt) close the gap a little, but it's still 25 to probably below 15. 

Her once per game buff would help. 

[Mirage8112]

4 hours ago, Forestreveries said:

I've not got involved with yours and Frank's exchanges (and don't want to get sucked into one now) because it's just not productive in my eyes.

I think (as with a lot of things at the moment) you just have to have the discussion with your opponent and play it as agreed until there is an FAQ.

What@MidasKiss is doing is a much more productive use of this forum so kudos there.

While tedious to read, (especially the third time) I do think these exchanges are productive. Mostly because discussion beforehand means if the issue comes up at a tournament you can give the appropriate reference immediately. I like to have the relevant rules and FAQ's at hand so when the issue comes up I'm prepared. Often my response is "show me the rule that allows to you do x" or "show me the rule that prevents me from doing x." Eventually thats what Nico's and my discussion comes down to. I see RAW being more important, and he sees RAI. Ultimately those two views aren't compatible on this issue. That's when you need a FAQ to settle the matter. I don't agree with how Nico is phrasing his FAQ (big surprise there) but I'm sure we can come to some sort of middle ground on it.

But I have to say that these discussions are helpful. If you're not prepared to explain why your model can do something in an unconventional way TO's almost always rule based on what's familiar; unless you have a RAW justification. Also, if you argue your case badly and the interpretation of the rule goes against you, it often sets a precedent. Precedents are often duplicated in other rules packs as TO's take rule cues from each other. 

You might think "who cares?". But over time players unknowingly narrow viable game builds until every army list looks exactly same, and players end up taking the same one or two battalions to competitive play. Interpreting "as if it were the movement phase" to only allow normal movement, removes the usefulness of three or four builds that aren't inordinately powerful, but play differently than players are used to. Allowing Destruction players to turn Wyldwoods into normal woods, combined with limiting how many can be placed severely hampers Sylvaneth builds that rely on that keyword to be effective; further restricting viable builds. Dicing off is fine for resolving minor rule interpretations or deciding which rule happens first. Dicing off should not be used for core mechanics, since that can lead to an entire army ceasing to function on the tabletop. 

Don't get me wrong, I like playing Gnarlroot. But given enough narrow readings of what's possible, every army that goes to competitive events is going to be gnarlroot/winterleaf with hunter spam. Eventually the only questions on this board will be "Alarielle or TLA for my general?", or "should I take a second unit of 20 dryads or a third unit of bow hunters?" You might not care that all the other tools are being taken out of your toolbox because you have a hammer and all you see are nails. Until the Steamhead Guardian battletome, or Tzneetch Arcanites drops later this year and surprise!, has something that totally ruins spell casters and becomes a hard counter to those builds. Hammers are great for nails, until somebody starts bringing screws.....

 

[Forestreveries]

9 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Until the Steamhead Guardian battletome, or Tzneetch Arcanites drops later this year and surprise!, has something that totally ruins spell casters and becomes a hard counter to those builds. Hammers are great for nails, until somebody starts bringing screws.....

Just like the Lord Veritant was game over for Gnarlroot?

 

The thing is these thing won't have infinite range unbinds. 

At least the way I play my wizards rarely leave my deployment zone and still apply their spells, because they all target my units or points in the table (in the case of Wyldwoods) Awakening the Wood is the best damage dealing spell we have with the exception of Alarielle's Metamorphosis and it's 24" range plus the wood itself plus the 3" around it. 

 

I just dont see them bringing in an unlimited range unlimited unbind / magical feedback ability personally. 

 

I dont know what it is but you seem dead set on playing down Gnarlroot and forseeing its imminent demise at every turn!

[Nico]

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Eventually thats what Nico's and my discussion comes down to. I see RAW being more important, and he sees RAI. Ultimately those two views aren't compatible on this issue. That's when you need a FAQ to settle the matter. I don't agree with how Nico is phrasing his FAQ (big surprise there) but I'm sure we can come to some sort of middle ground on it.

Exactly.

I am advocating particular answers in the way I phrased those questions. The split between moves and set ups is pretty essential to how I play the game and explain stuff to other people (more outside of the context of Sylvaneth).  

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But I have to say that these discussions are helpful. If you're not prepared to explain why your model can do something in an unconventional way TO's almost always rule based on what's familiar; unless you have a RAW justification. Also, if you argue your case badly and the interpretation of the rule goes against you, it often sets a precedent. Precedents are often duplicated in other rules packs as TO's take rule cues from each other. 

Also true. To some extent you need to road test a list in Theoryhammer land. Sometimes it doesn't survive very long. Sometimes it makes it through theoryhammer and onto the table and then falls apart spectacularly (my Fatesworn Warband army springs to mind).

I enjoy coming up with lists that hopefully people haven't seen before and often these do involve a complicated pile of rules or obscure Warscrolls ("what's a Nasty Skulker?"). I printed out 3 pages of bullet point rules and FAQs in case I needed to refer to stuff regarding my Mostly Grots II list at Blood & Glory (thankfully deploying this was never necessary in the games as everyone was familiar with how Fanatics worked and followed the additional steps. It's certainly a good idea in general to have the references to hand (e.g. with tabbed pages of battletomes/highlighting or short notes) for any list. 

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You might think "who cares?". But over time players unknowingly narrow viable game builds until every army list looks exactly same, and players end up taking the same one or two battalions to competitive play. Interpreting "as if it were the movement phase" to only allow normal movement, removes the usefulness of three or four builds that aren't inordinately powerful, but play differently than players are used to. 

Yes - exactly right.

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Allowing Destruction players to turn Wyldwoods into normal woods, combined with limiting how many can be placed severely hampers Sylvaneth builds that rely on that keyword to be effective; further restricting viable builds. 

It might be that because the most recent event I went to had fixed traits, that it seems like a less compelling option to me. Also my club mates are addicted to Bellowing Shout and Ravagers. As they play against more Sylvaneth (3 of us now using Sylvaneth at South London Legion), it will be interesting to see if they try this more and how that goes.

You've convinced me that it's more of a serious issue than I realised (and Destruction players are probably going to be more than 25% of the players at a typical event going forward - in contrast to Death).

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Dicing off is fine for resolving minor rule interpretations or deciding which rule happens first. Dicing off should not be used for core mechanics, since that can lead to an entire army ceasing to function on the tabletop. 

I agree with the first point. However, one advantage of dicing off (in my understanding) is that you avoid setting a precedent entirely - as it's solely an agreement between you and your opponent for that game (and not the rest of the event). This is assuming that you're playing someone in an event, not someone you play at a club every two weeks, when it would be more likely to determine how you played it going forward if you did roll it off.

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Don't get me wrong, I like playing Gnarlroot. But given enough narrow readings of what's possible, every army that goes to competitive events is going to be gnarlroot/winterleaf with hunter spam. Eventually the only questions on this board will be "Alarielle or TLA for my general?", or "should I take a second unit of 20 dryads or a third unit of bow hunters?" You might not care that all the other tools are being taken out of your toolbox because you have a hammer and all you see are nails. Until the Steamhead Guardian battletome, or Tzneetch Arcanites drops later this year and surprise!, has something that totally ruins spell casters and becomes a hard counter to those builds. Hammers are great for nails, until somebody starts bringing screws.....

I'm completely agreed on this one.

I'm literally painting Drycha and 4 units of Spite Revenants will be in the pipeline. It is unfortunate that Gnarlroot is such a compelling choice. One of my FAQ questions is an attempt to rescue the Ironbark Wargrove (by allowing it to include an Ancient in the Household since Treelords are just a waste of points compared to artefact bearing Ancients). 

In a way, if they nerfed the Free Spirits battalion without simultaneously nerfing the Dreadwood Wargrove (and ideally made Spite Revenants inherent battleline at the same time), then that would be a better solution than what has actually happened at the Masters (with nerfs to both Free Spirits and Ambush. 

[Nico]

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I dont know what it is but you seem dead set on playing down Gnarlroot and forseeing its imminent demise at every turn!

Well to the extent that Gnarlroot plus Free Spirits as a Magic Powerhouse plus decent Alpha Strike list was a popular choice - it does look like the writing may be on the wall for the latter half.

I can foresee Gnarlroot going up in price. Definitely prefer recosting to changing the core mechanics.

[Rhellion]

18 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Being "comped" is one thing. Thats when you make changes to how the core rules work in order to correct a perceived "imbalance". Comping something is not a comment on how the rules work. Incidentally,  blood and glory wasn't a comp, it was an interpretation, (and clearly a wrong one due to ignoring the FAQ on rampaging destroyers.)

Every TO I've asked, and my own interpretation as a Sylvaneth player... is that you cannot teleport with the Free Spirit move in the Hero phase. /shrug

[Mirage8112]

Turns out after the wording on the Veritant was clarified the warding lantern didn't work the way I thought. If it had, it would have been much more of a threat than it actually is.

I don't know what they have planned for duradin and arcanites. I do know that traditionally Duardin don't have spell casters, but do have some sort of innate magic defense. Tzneetch tradtionally is built completely around magic (he is the god of magic after all).

And I don't see Gnarlroot's demise at every turn. Like I said, I like like Gnarlroot. I just think a cavalier attitude toward handicapping other builds just because it's not what you play is short-sighted.


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[Forestreveries]

I dont know what it is but you seem dead set on playing down Gnarlroot and forseeing its imminent demise at every turn!

Well to the extent that Gnarlroot plus Free Spirits as a Magic Powerhouse plus decent Alpha Strike list was a popular choice - it does look like the writing may be on the wall for the latter half.
I can foresee Gnarlroot going up in price. Definitely prefer recosting to changing the core mechanics.



I actually put it down but put household up. Just because 20points for an artefact is too easy with such minimal requirements. Overall cost still 100.

Hunters will definitely go up, it's just a matter of how much. Over 240 and our list builds are facing an extreme rethink.

I'm up to 18 Hunters now (12 scythes, 6 bows) and want to get them to as many events as I can before GH2 comes and I realise £210 was too big an investment haha


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[Nico]

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Every TO I've asked, and my own interpretation as a Sylvaneth player... is that you cannot teleport with the Free Spirit move in the Hero phase. /shrug

I think it was always a complicated set of steps (whether Free Spirits plus Forest Spirits or Free Spirits plus Navigate Realmroots). Also a very good spot in the first place by others in this thread. Both are certainly still arguable either way. 

I'm much more concerned about implications of a nerf through the core rules having unintended consequences elsewhere (e.g. hitting Dreadwood).

It also wouldn't be good if every one of these issues went against Sylvaneth (so Free Spirits comped both ways (with Forest Spirits and with Navigate Realmroots), Dreadwood comped, Navigate Realmroots does count as a retreat, Gnarlroot was only a single Wizard; and Household must contain a Treelord).    

At least we can string the Wyldwoods out in a line again.

[Forestreveries]

Every TO I've asked, and my own interpretation as a Sylvaneth player... is that you cannot teleport with the Free Spirit move in the Hero phase. /shrug

I think it was always a complicated set of steps (whether Free Spirits plus Forest Spirits or Free Spirits plus Navigate Realmroots). Also a very good spot in the first place by others in this thread. Both are certainly still arguable either way. 
I'm much more concerned about implications of a nerf through the core rules having unintended consequences elsewhere (e.g. hitting Dreadwood).
It also wouldn't be good if every one of these issues went against Sylvaneth (so Free Spirits comped both ways (with Forest Spirits and with Navigate Realmroots), Dreadwood comped, Navigate Realmroots does count as a retreat, Gnarlroot was only a single Wizard; and Household must contain a Treelord).    
At least we can string the Wyldwoods out in a line again.


The only one of those I don't already play that way is multiple wizards in Gnarlroot getting 2 casts. To be fair, certainly on turn one, I don't tend to have enough available to cast anyway so some slots get wasted.

I don't feel the army is useless or behind the curve at all. In fact most people in my local area consider them one of the most powerful armies out there.

None of the strengths that I cited very early on in this topic have changed.





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[Nico]

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Hunters will definitely go up, it's just a matter of how much. Over 240 and our list builds are facing an extreme rethink. 

240 would be ludicrous. Maybe 220 if Tree Revenants went down a tad.

[Nico]

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The only one of those I don't already play that way is multiple wizards in Gnarlroot getting 2 casts. To be fair, certainly on turn one, I don't tend to have enough available to cast anyway so some slots get wasted. 

I don't feel the army is useless or behind the curve at all. In fact most people in my local area consider them one of the most powerful armies out there. 

None of the strengths that I cited very early on in this topic have changed. 

That's fair. These are issues that affect alpha strike lists more than other lists.

I'm not asking for buffs other than for Spite Revenants to be Battleline.

 

[Forestreveries]

Hunters will definitely go up, it's just a matter of how much. Over 240 and our list builds are facing an extreme rethink. 

240 would be ludicrous. Maybe 220 if Tree Revenants went down a tad.

I don't know, I think the fact they're available in mixed order armies pushes their cost up. What else do you get for 240?

Like 20 glade guard? 2 Dracoth cav? 2 helblasters / organ guns?

These things are comparable or just worse


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[Forestreveries]

The only one of those I don't already play that way is multiple wizards in Gnarlroot getting 2 casts. To be fair, certainly on turn one, I don't tend to have enough available to cast anyway so some slots get wasted. 

I don't feel the army is useless or behind the curve at all. In fact most people in my local area consider them one of the most powerful armies out there. 

None of the strengths that I cited very early on in this topic have changed. 

That's fair. These are issues that affect alpha strike lists more than other lists.
I'm not asking for buffs other than for Spite Revenants to be Battleline.
 



That's all I asked for too. And the weaker / narrative orientated battalions to come down.




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[Nico]

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I don't know, I think the fact they're available in mixed order armies pushes their cost up. What else do you get for 240?

Like 20 glade guard? 2 Dracoth cav? 2 helblasters / organ guns? 

Crewed artillery are just a sucker's bet normally (especially against Sylvaneth) in a fixed list tournament.

Dracoth Knights are very good at that cost.

I would be happier if Archai and Varanguard came down in cost than for Hunters to go up. You're right that they work so well in mixed Order lists (the bow variants). Rob Symes illustrated this so well with his Hurricanum trio and Hunters.

 

[Forestreveries]

To be fair I don't think they will go that high. 200-220 seems likely


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[Mirage8112]

Every TO I've asked, and my own interpretation as a Sylvaneth player... is that you cannot teleport with the Free Spirit move in the Hero phase. /shrug

I think it was always a complicated set of steps (whether Free Spirits plus Forest Spirits or Free Spirits plus Navigate Realmroots). Also a very good spot in the first place by others in this thread. Both are certainly still arguable either way. 
I'm much more concerned about implications of a nerf through the core rules having unintended consequences elsewhere (e.g. hitting Dreadwood).


The questions surrounding this remind me a little of the drama surrounding Seraphon summoning when AOS first came out. Specifically where players said you had to have a warscroll on the table in order to summon that particular unit. In the FAQ GW ruled the other way. Units could be summoned even if the warscroll wasn't part of your army.

AOS seems to be a permissive rule set. In 90% of their rulings they seem to lean toward a positive interpretation (bonuses stack for example) only in a few cases has it gone the other way. For that reason, I'm reasonably confident the GW ruling will be a permissive one on the freespirits/dreadwood question

I think a TLA in a household formation is probably wishful thinking though.


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[Nico]

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To be fair I don't think they will go that high. 200-220 seems likely 

Yep. I really struggle to fit them into my Dreadwood lists, but partly this is because I like to take at least two Ancients.