Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Lez]

@Nico I'll do a write up of the game tomorrow if I get time and post it in the chat. 

 

 

[scrubyandwells]

34 minutes ago, Lez said:

@Nico I'll do a write up of the game tomorrow if I get time and post it in the chat.

Hey @Lez, awesome! Would also love to hear about your overall impressions of playing Sylvaneth so far. Your army looked outstanding. 

[scrubyandwells]

2 hours ago, N_Watson said:

I'm am pretty sure it was intended as the rule says "on a 6 or more." If you think about it, how to do you roll more than a 6 on a 6 sided dice? WIth modifiers. They are a 220 point unit for 15 wounds. It is quite steep, so they need to pack a punch.  
That said, I am not really sure how easy it is for them to get +2. I know they can get +1 from a lord celestant. 
Anyway, don't want to derail the thread. 

How competitive would you guys rate this. 

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
Spirit of Durthu (400)
Branchwych (100)
Drycha Hamadreth (280)

Units
Dryads x 20 (240)
Dryads x 10 (120)
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)
- Greatbows
Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)

Behemoths

War Machines

Battalions
Household (20)
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Scenery

Total: 2000/2000

Not sure on optimal load outs, but the above is the new £100 box, a start collecting box and one more box of Dryads, so an army for £175. How would it fare at a 6 game matched play event after seeing the kind of armies that show up at these events? 

I'd be concerned about that list. I think it could win some games, but it seems like it would struggle against a lot of matchups. My personal bias is to think the Sylvaneth Monsters are more efficient than most AoS Monsters, but it still seems tough to run that many of them because of how much it hurts your model count.

One potential flaw of the TAncient, Durthu, and Drycha is they're a ton of points, but their healing and resilience capacity is significantly less than Alarielle + Durthu. I was a little shocked by how well @ravman's list did at Blood & Glory w/ Alarielle and Durthu since he had so few models, so that's some evidence you can compete with those two together, but by comparison it seems it'd be a lot more difficult with a TAncient, Durthu, and Drycha; but I could be wrong. 

I don't think there's much consensus yet on general-purpose "optimal" builds for Sylvaneth, which is cool. They seem to have quite a few viable builds, all with various strengths and weaknesses and none that stand out as overwhelmingly stronger, in the way that, say, Ironjawz lists at the moment have clearer general-purpose optimal builds.

As another point of comparison, attached is a list I've been playtesting a little bit. As usual, it has distinct strengths and weaknesses. One thing I like is the variety. In particular, I think there's a fair argument for one x6 scythe Kurnoths and two x3 greatsword Kurnoths in a general-purpose list, since the latter are better against horde armies and can still pack a punch against tougher units.

 

sylvaneth_scrollbuilder.pdf

[N_Watson]

2 minutes ago, scrubyandwells said:

I'd be concerned about that list. I think it could win some games, but it seems like it would struggle against a lot of matchups. My personal bias is to think the Sylvaneth Monsters are more efficient than most AoS Monsters, but it still seems tough to run that many of them because of how much it hurts your model count.

One potential flaw of the TAncient, Durthu, and Drycha is they're a ton of points, but their healing and resilience capacity is significantly less than Alarielle + Durthu. I was a little shocked by how well @ravman's list did at Blood & Glory w/ Alarielle and Durthu since he had so few models, so that's some evidence you can compete with those two together, but by comparison it seems it'd be a lot more difficult with a TAncient, Durthu, and Drycha; but I could be wrong. 

I don't think there's much consensus yet on general-purpose "optimal" builds for Sylvaneth, which is cool. They seem to have quite a few viable builds, all with various strengths and weaknesses and none that stand out as overwhelmingly stronger, in the way that, say, Ironjawz lists at the moment have clearer general-purpose optimal builds.

As another point of comparison, attached is a list I've been playtesting a little bit. As usual, it has distinct strengths and weaknesses. One thing I like is the variety. In particular, I think there's a fair argument for one x6 scythe Kurnoths and two x3 greatsword Kurnoths in a general-purpose list, since the latter are better against horde armies and can still pack a punch against tougher units.

 

sylvaneth_scrollbuilder.pdf

Hey, thanks for the response. The link you posted doesn't seem to be working though,

 

[N_Watson]

@scrubyandwells Never mind. Think it just needed a minute to become available. 

[scrubyandwells]

9 hours ago, Nico said:

If you were up against Max's 3 Thundertusk plus Stonelord list, then the optimal artefact is probably the rarely mentioned Seed of Rebirth - simply because a pair of Thundertusks will not take off the Ancient/Durthu with 2 snowballs. They might still get lucky with Blood Vultures, but at least it's chewing up all of their shooting (apart from the other Thundertusk and 2 more Blood Vultures).

Great post + spot on the Seed of Rebirth. Hadn't thought about that on Durthu in tandem with Alarielle. Tasty. 

[Forestreveries]

Great post + spot on the Seed of Rebirth. Hadn't thought about that on Durthu in tandem with Alarielle. Tasty. 

It was my first go to simply because it was essentially more wounds for alarielle but I left it behind fairly quickly.

Great place for it in a matchup vs 2+ thundertusks / Luminarks though for sure.

Assuming you are allowed to choose artefacts game by game in the situation you come up against it, it's definitely worth considering


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[LordRogalDorn]

On 11/28/2016 at 7:31 AM, ravman said:

No one had an issue with me deploying 3 citadel woods at Blood and Glory. Plus I did it on the live stream too! (albeit I didn't realise they had to be within 1 inch of each other!)

 

 

 

Just because no one called you out on it, doesn't mean you played it correctly. Your placement of 3 bases for a single wyldwood sparked a bit of a debate in the comments of the live stream if you watched the game. According to the rules (linked here ) for including sylvaneth wyldwoods in pitched battles, they are min 1 max 1, 40 pts each, and free if you have sylvaneth allegiance. This would suggest that when playing a match play game, you can bring in a single base of trees for each wyldwood you bring to the table. There are other examples of the description of the unit size being different from what the General's Handbook says to bring in. Case in point, Stormcast Eternal Retributors say in their description to take 3 or more, but the General's Handbook says to take min 5 and max 20. No one seems to be arguing that you need to pay for Retributors in blocks of 3 because the description says 3 or more. 

[scrubyandwells]

35 minutes ago, LordRogalDorn said:

Just because no one called you out on it, doesn't mean you played it correctly. Your placement of 3 bases for a single wyldwood sparked a bit of a debate in the comments of the live stream if you watched the game. According to the rules (linked here ) for including sylvaneth wyldwoods in pitched battles, they are min 1 max 1, 40 pts each, and free if you have sylvaneth allegiance. This would suggest that when playing a match play game, you can bring in a single base of trees for each wyldwood you bring to the table. There are other examples of the description of the unit size being different from what the General's Handbook says to bring in. Case in point, Stormcast Eternal Retributors say in their description to take 3 or more, but the General's Handbook says to take min 5 and max 20. No one seems to be arguing that you need to pay for Retributors in blocks of 3 because the description says 3 or more. 

I'm almost 100% positive the intention is up to 3 citadel wood bases per Wyldwood in Matched Play, but I agree it needs to be clarified in a FAQ, for both Sylvaneth Allegiance and non-Sylvaneth Allegiance. Personally I've been playing no more than 1 base per Wyldwood for 1,000pt games, and no one more than 2 bases per Wyldwood for 2,000pt games, and then setting a total cap of no more than 8 citadel wood bases on the battlefield in a 2,000pt game; but this is just based on my personal experience. At the moment, Sylvaneth have a lot of ways to often auto-guarantee going first and a lot of ways to flood the board with citadel wood bases in your first turn before your opponent has moved. At the same time, in my experience 1 base per Wyldwood is too restrictive, especially in competitive play. 

[ravman]

To be honest though, with the rule of having them all within an inch of each other it is very difficult to place more than 2. I was told to leave it on the livestream because the game had already started. 

[scrubyandwells]

Here's another list that might have legs: 

• Treelord Ancient 
• Branchwych - Ranu's
• Branchwych - Acorn
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 6 Kurnoth w/ scythes
• 6 Kurnoth w/ scythes (or two x3 w/ greatswords)
• 3 Kurnoth w/ greatbows
• Household + Gnarlroot
• 1,960pts / 132 wounds

It's all about the Kurnoth-scythe units slicing through things + healing them w/ Regrowth + bringing them back w/ Verdurous Harmony.

Similar to Necropolis-Knight TK builds but sadly much slower. 

[Forestreveries]

Here's another list that might have legs: 

• Treelord Ancient 
• Branchwych - Ranu's
• Branchwych - Acorn
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 6 Kurnoth w/ scythes
• 6 Kurnoth w/ scythes (or two x3 w/ greatswords)
• 3 Kurnoth w/ greatbows
• Household + Gnarlroot
• 1,960pts / 132 wounds

It's all about the Kurnoth-scythe units slicing through things + healing them w/ Regrowth + bringing them back w/ Verdurous Harmony.
Similar to Necropolis-Knight TK builds but sadly much slower. 

Could drop 2 Dryad units and replace 1 with tree revenants to get 3 more Kurnoth. [emoji56]


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Gengis137]

God I love the idea...


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk

[Bowlzee]

9 hours ago, LordRogalDorn said:

Just because no one called you out on it, doesn't mean you played it correctly. Your placement of 3 bases for a single wyldwood sparked a bit of a debate in the comments of the live stream if you watched the game. According to the rules (linked here ) for including sylvaneth wyldwoods in pitched battles, they are min 1 max 1, 40 pts each, and free if you have sylvaneth allegiance. This would suggest that when playing a match play game, you can bring in a single base of trees for each wyldwood you bring to the table. There are other examples of the description of the unit size being different from what the General's Handbook says to bring in. Case in point, Stormcast Eternal Retributors say in their description to take 3 or more, but the General's Handbook says to take min 5 and max 20. No one seems to be arguing that you need to pay for Retributors in blocks of 3 because the description says 3 or more. 

It's been discussed in another thread. But the scroll clearly says 1 Sylvaneth Wyldwood contains 1-3 citadel woods (different models) and if we took your description a lot of artillery units would not be feasible because GHB says Min/Max 1 but they come with artillery piece plus 3-4 crewman.... You'd only be able to field the artillery piece and no crewman, so you wouldn't be able to shoot it..... 

Rob Symes also mentioned in the Twitch cast that 'A' Sylvaneth wood consists of 1-3 citadel woods, so that is why 3 citadel woods have been placed.

[Nico]

Quote

Great post + spot on the Seed of Rebirth. Hadn't thought about that on Durthu in tandem with Alarielle. Tasty. 

Thanks a lot!

Quote

It was my first go to simply because it was essentially more wounds for alarielle but I left it behind fairly quickly. 

Great place for it in a matchup vs 2+ thundertusks / Luminarks though for sure.

Assuming you are allowed to choose artefacts game by game in the situation you come up against it, it's definitely worth considering

Cheers Aaron!

So here's a perfect example (timing is a coincidence) of exactly the type of tournament list structure where Sylvaneth should be at an advantage due to the ability to flip artefacts, traits and spells depending on opponents. The Megaboss (Chris Tomlin) is running another tournament.

It would be well worth coming up with a shortlist of - if I draw army X, then i go for this "loadout" in advance of the tournament. Firstly, because it will just give you an advantage and secondly because it will save time which can then be spent in deployment and the rest of the game. 

Quote

You will use a single 2,000 point list across all 5 games which will be submitted on the Saturday morning. Generals, Command Traits and Artefacts can freely be picked before each game. Armies must of course be fully painted and based.

Note that Destruction and Chaos can also benefit a lot from artefact switching - mostly between Battle Brew and Talisman of Protection and between +1 to hit vs Order (Dark Avenger aka free Hurricanum) and Lord of War. Order don't benefit so much from choosing between trash and junk (ok fine the Quicksilver Potion can be great, but it isn't always necessary/beneficial cf. Battlebrew).

Rain of Stars was excellent, so go go go! Presumably the only downside will be that Chris will not be playing himself if he's TO. 

 

[Forestreveries]

I actually do this already to a point.

After a few games vs ironjaws I realised that Briarsheath (my standard artefact for TLA / Durthu wasn't really effective with warchancters and "duff up Da big 'uns" meaning they hit reliably even with -2 to hit.

Most of their attacks are Rend 1 so Oaken armour and gnarled warrior are a fantastic combo into that matchup.

I'll add seed of rebirth vs bcr to the mental notes for pre game run downs!


Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Nico]

Quote

Here's another list that might have legs: 

• Treelord Ancient 
• Branchwych - Ranu's
• Branchwych - Acorn
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 6 Kurnoth w/ scythes
• 6 Kurnoth w/ scythes (or two x3 w/ greatswords)
• 3 Kurnoth w/ greatbows
• Household + Gnarlroot
• 1,960pts / 132 wounds

It's all about the Kurnoth-scythe units slicing through things + healing them w/ Regrowth + bringing them back w/ Verdurous Harmony.

I can see the strength of this. I'd also be tempted to take the Kurnoth Hunters as a single unit of 12 models. I'm a maniac for avoiding MSU with melee units as much as possible (which is why Ironjawz' command abilities are so terrible - the third unit of Brutes that you activate has already lost 2 models to 20 derpy spearmen before it gets to eat them). I'm also a big believer in the theory that big blocks of buffed through the roof troops will usually win against monsters (except a select few).

The downside would be that a cover save would be unlikely and battleshock of course. The other theoretical downside is that the enemy hits your end of the line with a monster or a thin line of models and forces you to either retreat or do pitiful 3 inch pile ins to nowhere.  

The upside is that they are extremely unlikely to global the unit and you're going to being back a model each time (and unlike TK, you don't get 2 models back or even 4 models back (with a Tomb Herald) guaranteed or 5 models back with a wizard as well, as you do by switching to 2 units of 6 Necropolis Knights.

You're basic strategy would then be to hold the Kurnoths back on the table get mystic shield on the Kurnoths, move them to a new wood (potentially a big ask) and then charge them 9 inches into the entire enemy army, then you do the first activation and hopefully cripple multiple enemy units. Then you just grind them down. If you fail the charge roll it's not the end of the world since you will be 3+ rerollable in melee and you might win the double turn anyway. The other risk to Hunters is regular shooting since no rerolls! 

The main risks are mortal wounds or you failing the mystic shield roll (and Ranu's Lam will help with that - it might be worth doing Throne of Vines as well to ensure that cast goes off).

Meanwhile everything else is doing magic spam and other trickery. The Ancient is supporting the Hunters with Stomp potentially.

I'd be tempted to put in a Starseer for rerolls (e.g. of the charge dice and the all important mystic shield roll and of the stomp). 

[Nico]

Quote

After a few games vs ironjaws I realised that Briarsheath (my standard artefact for TLA / Durthu wasn't really effective with warchancters and "duff up Da big 'uns" meaning they hit reliably even with -2 to hit. 
 

Exactly - ditto for Battle Brew (when they should almost certainly double down if vs Sylvaneth). 

Conversely, if you just spam Dryads and Briarsheath against Arrerboyz Kunning Rukk Filth, it's a very strong soft counter.

Quote

@Nico I'll do a write up of the game tomorrow if I get time and post it in the chat. 

You hero! Cheers Les.

[scrubyandwells]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

I can see the strength of this. I'd also be tempted to take the Kurnoth Hunters as a single unit of 12 models. I'm a maniac for avoiding MSU with melee units as much as possible (which is why Ironjawz' command abilities are so terrible - the third unit of Brutes that you activate has already lost 2 models to 20 derpy spearmen before it gets to eat them). I'm also a big believer in the theory that big blocks of buffed through the roof troops will usually win against monsters (except a select few).

[...]

Very interesting analysis, thanks! Would love to playtest some of these ideas, especially the 12 Kurnoth...wow that would be one hell of a combat activation. 

Here's one more list I was playing around with: 

• Spirit of Durthu
• Branchwych - Ranu's
• Branchwych
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 6 Kurnoth scythes
• 6 Kurnoth scythes
• 3 Kurnoth greatbows
• Free Spirits

Two units of 6 Kurnoth scythes and a Spirit of Durthu w/ extra speed via Free Spirits. Now that sounds fun.

[Nico]

Quote

• Spirit of Durthu
• Branchwych - Ranu's
• Branchwych
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 6 Kurnoth scythes
• 6 Kurnoth scythes
• 3 Kurnoth greatbows
• Free Spirits

Definitely fun! Would be particularly good in a dual list tournament where you can whip that out for particular games.

Quote

Very interesting analysis, thanks! Would love to playtest some of these ideas, especially the 12 Kurnoth...wow that would be one hell of a combat activation. 

My theory has always been MSU for pew pew and single big activation with a stack of buffs for melee. It's going ok so far.

When I was forced to try MSU melee with elite troops and limited buffs (the Lightning Echelon with 8 Dracoth Cavalry in twos) it was borderline catastrophic:

 

[Forestreveries]

Here's another list that might have legs: 

• Treelord Ancient 
• Branchwych - Ranu's
• Branchwych - Acorn
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 10 Dryads
• 5 Tree-Revenants
• 6 Kurnoth w/ scythes
• 6 Kurnoth w/ scythes (or two x3 w/ greatswords)
• 3 Kurnoth w/ greatbows
• Household + Gnarlroot
• 1,960pts / 132 wounds

It's all about the Kurnoth-scythe units slicing through things + healing them w/ Regrowth + bringing them back w/ Verdurous Harmony.

Similar to Necropolis-Knight TK builds but sadly much slower. 

Leaders

Spirit of Durthu (400)

Treelord Ancient (300)

Branchwych (100)

Units

Kurnoth Hunters x 6 (360)

- Scythes

Dryads x 10 (120)

Dryads x 10 (120)

Tree-Revenants x 5 (100)

Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)

- Greatbows

Kurnoth Hunters x 3 (180)

- Greatbows

Behemoths

War Machines

Battalions

Household (20)

Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)

Free Spirits (40)

Scenery

Total: 2000/2000

You can get in Gnarlroot and free Spirits with 2x 6 scythe hunters.

Pretty strong.

as a side note to the pros and cons of big units;

After playing a load of games with units of 3 I actually really like the scythe dudes in 3's.

Battleshock is never really a worry, having to lose 2 in one turn and then roll a 6. If a Durthu is nearby then they can never fail.

The reason I like the 3's over the 6's so much tho is the champions.

3 x 2" reach attacks, 2's then 3's with Rend 2, damage d3... and then a mortal wound on a 4+ at end of combat phase.

5 wounds with a 4+ rerollable save.

Thats with absolutely no buffs on it.

Pretty awesome. If a character did that at 60pts you'd see it everywhere!

The hitting on 2's is so reliable.

So yeah MSU scythe Kurnoth are a thing.

Sent from the Hidden Enclaves via the Realmroots

[Nico]

Good point about champions (which is why pew pew MSU is strong, since the champion buff does work on pew pew and there aren't many pew pew buffs in Sylvaneth - basically Alarielle, Damned Terrain, Mystical)? Units of 3 Waywatchers and Judicators are the pinnacle of this, where the champion is doing approximately half the damage of the unit if not more.

[Nico]

This is regarding artefacts:

Interesting that they are using a purposive interpretation. They also acknowledge that they are not the Rules Team.

Spamming artefacts does happen with Briarsheath and Oaken Armour for Sylvaneth (not unreasonably). 

 

 

[Nico]

It's amazing how much I want the Darkroot Wargrove to have points. I think it's pre-order this weekend.

(Ditto the Ironjawz Thunderfist).

 

[Mirage8112]

On 11/30/2016 at 4:20 AM, Nico said:

The difference (to me) with Free Spirits vs Sneak Attack is that the move towards a piece of Scenery or enemy unit bit. As discussed way way above, it is possible literally to meet this requirement on the basis that on the table is always closer than in the Hidden Enclaves. However, presumably the Free Spirits is perceived as being undercosted if it can do a reliable alpha strike. Brace yourselves for a further FAQ that comps this. What I hope for is that any comp is limited to Free Spirits and doesn't take out (well significantly weaken) Dreadwood as collateral damage.

I think this is actually a situation that would need a FAQ before I intended to play it that way. However, Ben also rules that they couldn't navigate there realmroots for their free move, even if already deployed on the table. Clearly a wrong interpretation given all the reasons above. 

And truthfully, I don't think the free spirits battalion is a viable option for alpha strike. It's hella expensive and tough to build a balanced list around. My thought is is it's one of those thing you can do, but just because you can, doesn't mean you should....
 

21 hours ago, scrubyandwells said:

I'm almost 100% positive the intention is up to 3 citadel wood bases per Wyldwood in Matched Play, but I agree it needs to be clarified in a FAQ, for both Sylvaneth Allegiance and non-Sylvaneth Allegiance.

Christ. How is this still a thing? The warscroll says a wyldwood is 1-3 citadel woods. The points linked for pitched battles plainly says "Sylvaneth Wyldwood" not "citadel woods".  The FAQ boys need to spend their time answering questions where there is ambiguity in how rules interact not what a war scroll plainly says. /rant
 

14 hours ago, ravman said:

to be honest though, with the rule of having them all within an inch of each other it is very difficult to place more than 2. I was told to leave it on the livestream because the game had already started. 

This is more problematic I had always thought of the citidel woods that make up a Wyldwood working like unit coherency. But if every citadel wood needs to be 1" from every other citadel wood that really limits the range. With probably the best formation being a three pointed star rather than a line-o-woods (as I've been playing it) I vaguely remember us talking about this, but I don't think an official consensus was reached. Thoughts?