AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[broche]

I'm 100% with Blackbreaker. For me the Bloodtooth Combo is not really a good list. There's too much point invested in non-troops to in the classic Bloodtooth list. It's a good list to  do 3-3 or 4-2 in a tournament, as you're certain to face some scenario you'll be missing troop or an opponent who know how to screen and will just outplay you. 

With the discount to Ardboys, Ironjawz can field a good amount of wound and many satellite units. With the access to  waaagh stacking, it mean you can generate a good damage spike mid game. +3 attack or +7, it's not  that relevant. If i can't kill it with +3 attack, i probably don't want to attack it anyway, i'm better focusing on stuff that will die to clear stuff and score point.

[Andrew G]

6 minutes ago, broche said:

I'm 100% with Blackbreaker. For me the Bloodtooth Combo is not really a good list. There's too much point invested in non-troops to in the classic Bloodtooth list. It's a good list to  do 3-3 or 4-2 in a tournament, as you're certain to face some scenario you'll be missing troop or an opponent who know how to screen and will just outplay you. 

With the discount to Ardboys, Ironjawz can field a good amount of wound and many satellite units. With the access to  waaagh stacking, it mean you can generate a good damage spike mid game. +3 attack or +7, it's not  that relevant. If i can't kill it with +3 attack, i probably don't want to attack it anyway, i'm better focusing on stuff that will die to clear stuff and score point.

I don't think we're actually disagreeing. The list I was reviewing has 5 min size units of troops, the only way you can make a list function that light on troops is to go alphastrike IMO (probably resulting in 4-2/ 3-2 like you mentioned).  My other suggestion was to actually do what both of you are suggesting and lean into more bodies/wounds... which I think is what both you guys are advocating for if I'm not mistaken? 

[Hannibal]

What about this for some fun 1000 pts games:

MBMK, 4x 3 Gore Gruntas

---

exactly 1000 points

[Brakkus]

I have to say that with recently playing a Bloodtoofs list, I agree it felt light on bodies. After playing it just one game, I felt that it was it's biggest weakness. I generally like to play a list 4-5 times before making adjustments, but I immediately started tweaking after that game and was putting Ard Boyz in. I have a list with 1x10 and another with 2x10 that I'm going to try out

[broche]

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

I don't think we're actually disagreeing. The list I was reviewing has 5 min size units of troops, the only way you can make a list function that light on troops is to go alphastrike IMO (probably resulting in 4-2/ 3-2 like you mentioned).  My other suggestion was to actually do what both of you are suggesting and lean into more bodies/wounds... which I think is what both you guys are advocating for if I'm not mistaken? 

Yes correct. Actually Bloodtooth isn't an alpha strike. Alpha strike would be gorefist, wich i consider more viable. Gorefist is 190 pts, and you don't really need to invest more to have a viable alphastrike (maybe upgrade regular MK for Grodrack or take a Cog for extra move). But I would never play Gorefist as i don't see the real fun of playing 15 minutes games.

Bloodtooth have a threat range of 20-25'' depending of unit, so not enough for an alpha strike. So it's about the range you have from 2 movement phase. Usually Pig and Ardboys can easily reach something during round 2.

[Backbreaker]

55 minutes ago, broche said:

Yes correct. Actually Bloodtooth isn't an alpha strike. Alpha strike would be gorefist, wich i consider more viable. Gorefist is 190 pts, and you don't really need to invest more to have a viable alphastrike (maybe upgrade regular MK for Grodrack or take a Cog for extra move). But I would never play Gorefist as i don't see the real fun of playing 15 minutes games.

Even with Gordrakk-Fist, our alpha strike is limited. Most armies with this option have a second wave, we don't. And furthermore, we don't have a good way other than MK to remove screening units.

Example : First turn charge into skeletons, no more skelies. Then Nagash/Arkhan raises them again and counter attack. Game over.

That's why I like Gordrakk or rock lobber / spear chukkas, we lack tools to remove key elements. When it's done we can start our rampage but not before.

And you can't play these units in a Bloodtooth. So in the end, I prefer to avoid Bloodtooth and Gorefist for more balanced lists.

EDIT : Maybe a Gordrakkfist a bit lighter on Gore Gruntas with some shooting... but it's a no brutes list !

Edited September 7, 2018 by Backbreaker

[Malakree]

@Andrew G@broche

Actually I agree with you both about the alphastrike Bloodtoofs being a bit short on the range to pull it off reliably. It's why I'm trying a list which doesn't take the cogs.

I definitely think dropping magic altogether and just accepting you don't get unbinds is one of the options. That would lead me in one of two directions, either double cabbage or just more meat.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103

The cabbages are going to have to really do work for you, maybe drop the brutes altogether and go for blocks of Ardboys instead.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 140

Could drop one of the WC's to go to 4 units of brutes instead of 2/2

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125

There's a few different variations on this list, I think this is the one I like the most though. Only having 7 units total is a little risky but it puts more wounds on the board and has 15 brutes with it. My other list I might try is

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139

With the two massive GG blocks giving us some very dangerous shock cav.

After playing around a bit I think that any Wizard Bloodtoofs list is going to be light on either wounds or spells. You're trading the wounds off for the MW output and it's really how hard you lean into it. If I have to be honest I suspect 1 Weirdnob with at most Aethervoid is going to be what we can afford. Anything more than that and you should probably not be running a MB.

[broche]

like in the first list (i would like to try a 2 MK list someday but just have 1) my question is just: Why the ironfist & bloodtooth? Why not use those 300 hundred points for Shaman, Warchanter, Ardboyz? 

[Lanoss]

Agreed ^^^ @Malakree

[Malakree]

43 minutes ago, broche said:

like in the first list (i would like to try a 2 MK list someday but just have 1) my question is just: Why the ironfist & bloodtooth? Why not use those 300 hundred points for Shaman, Warchanter, Ardboyz? 

It's becaue the question, or rather my post, was about "If Bloodtoofs" hence the initial supposition is that you have spent those 300 points.

Yes there are perfectly reasonable other lists, I was just exploring in the specific  

[Backbreaker]

9 hours ago, broche said:

Why the ironfist & bloodtooth?

For the Ironfist, I think it's mandatory. First of all, it gives you a CP even if you didn't get the first turn, really usefull for inspiring presence. But that could be say about any battalion.

That's free d6 movement is interesting because it gives us mobility without restrictions of use. We have this bonus everyturn and not only the first one like a Gorefist, it applies to all our troops and not only to a specific one like Brutefist, Ardfist, ... etc

While Bloodtooth is more specific : If you take it for one drop, you can't take allies, you have to take a MBMK (I don't really like him, he can fail with his 3+ to hit and he still costs 440 points), etc ...

[Malakree]

On 9/8/2018 at 9:36 AM, Backbreaker said:

(I don't really like him, he can fail with his 3+ to hit and he still costs 440 points), etc ...

The important parts are the destructive bulk, 15' waaagh and 2+/3+/-2/3 from the cabbage itself.

[broche]

You can buy a CP for 50 pts. So ironfist is 130 pts for d6 extra move. It's not that d6 move is bad, but the fact it's not army wide, and in the end units will benefit from it like once per game, it's not clear cut that it's worth close to 15 wound on the board.  You can get extra move from Cog, Fungoid or Gordrack also. What arder to replace for me is not the CP but the artefact as bataillion are the only way to get extra one.

[Malakree]

7 minutes ago, broche said:

You can buy a CP for 50 pts. So ironfist is 130 pts for d6 extra move. It's not that d6 move is bad, but the fact it's not army wide, and in the end units will benefit from it like once per game, it's not clear cut that it's worth close to 15 wound on the board.  You can get extra move from Cog, Fungoid or Gordrack also. What arder to replace for me is not the CP but the artefact as bataillion are the only way to get extra one.

And it cuts down your drops considerably. Don't underestimate being able to choose who goes first.

[Backbreaker]

For 180 points, you gain :

One CP (50 points as you said)

One artefact

Reduction of deployement drops

Rule to mitigate our 4" move

Two wound one one model

Gordrakk can affect every unit from a battalion

Having a CP before your turn one can save you, remember you start with 0 and cannot use inspiring presence !

[Malakree]

So I got to play a game tonight at my local club. It's the guys blackout list, a strong mixed order list with morathi and double phoenix, and it was useful for testing the spells.

Endless Spells

• I found I wasn't actually that keen on the Pendulum, it was cool but more of a one off. It did 3 MW to morathi in human form and like 4 to a phoenix but then just wandered off. 
• The emerald lifeswarm was a bit of a weird one. It healed 4 wounds onto the cabbage, which would have mattered had I done my ordering properly, but I play to defensively with the cabbage for it to matter. I was also terrified of morathi getting heals off it.
• I didn't get to test the flaming skull because I just didn't try to cast it. I actually think this would have been better than the pendulum because it isn't one then done and my opponent has incentives to try and keep it round the battle area.

Overall, not keen on the pendulum. Could see a use for the Lifeswarm just not in my list, a double cabbage+fungoid could abuse it so hard. Still need to see about the skull.

On not having the Cogs. I actually did feel it quite a bit more than I expected, it meant that I hit in two waves rather than one which greatly reduced my effectiveness. I'm still not sure it's mandatory but it does make the list less brittle for when you ****** up. 

Hero Stuff etc.

• Aetherquartz Broach is still disgusting, getting 4 waaagh! for 1 cp on my turn 1 was pretty dirty. I did feel the lack of Prophet though, again it makes those explosive turns all the more disgusting and the list is so dependent on them. You need to cripple your opponent on the turn you explode.
• I still haven't found a good use for the third relic, Broach+Mirrored Curiass are great but with the nerf to lens of refraction everything else is mediocre. Our own relics are pretty ****** as well so it just feels wasted.
• No second Warchanter is a big loss. Everyturn I found myself wishing I had that second Frenzy of Violence.
• Two weirdnobs is nice however as it was pointed out (I think by @Backbreaker) I struggled to maintain even the +1 past the first turn. Without the +2 the weirdnob just isn't worth 120 points.

So overall I think the 2nd weirdnob just doesn't make the cut, just to hard to fit into a Bloodtoofs list and still have the models to make it worth the points. On a related note I think the Broach/Prophet/Cogs is a single package which you include or don't, each of them enhances the others in a none linear fashion. However if you do go for the combo you are a one turn explosion army. You must get everything in, then cripple your opponent.

This leads to an interesting question regarding our Realm for artefacts. With Bloodtoofs you have 3 of them so you really need to be getting maximum output from all 3. As Bloodtoofs takes care of the Bravery problem our two good artefacts become mediocre. So looking through the realms, with that in mind, I feel like if we aren't going for the combo there are a few other realms that are good.

1. Ghyran - This one is something that I overlooked because it doesn't have a singular God Artefact. That said I could see 6+ of them being useful for us.
2. Ghur - My god this is trash for us. Beastcaller's Bones would be good if it didn't also have the potential to neuter The Cabbage as well.
3. Chamon - After the Errata there's only Gildenbane which stands out. Flowstone Blade, Rune Blade, Chamonite darts and Alchemical Chain are all reasonable second and third relics.
4. Aqshy - Ignax's Scales is the obvious standout here, with Ironclad The Cabbage becomes incredibly hard to kill. Also has reasonable secondary relics with a good variety of options. Ruby Ring and Purefire Brazier provide some nice mortal wound output potential while Exile Torch, Thermalrider Cloak and Cleansing Brooch offer more utility focused options.
5. Shyish - Probably has the two best ranged MW output weapons in Wraithbow and Splintertooth. The Banshee Blade isn't as good as SoJ for killing heroes but actually effects none hero/monster targets and does it in addition to normal damage rather than instead, turns a footboss into a horde killer. Ethereal Amulet is a slightly better version of Ironclad so opens up something like Brutish Cunning. Ragged Cloak seems situational at best.
6. Ulgu - Sword of Judgement is disgusting, we all know that. Miasmatic Blade, Dimensional Blade, Spell Mirror and Doppelganger Cloak are all usable. Betrayers Crown is probably the best horde killer in the game at the moment. Talisman of the Watcher might actually be really good in low wizard lists, put it on a support character and give The Cabbage a free Mystic Shield for that round.

Lists and Thoughts

So because I'm a consistent and stable kind of Orruk I've clearly decided to switch up my list for the local tournament in a fortnight. I've not quite settled yet but I think my base list is this

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu (?)

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 1620 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 8
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106

From there there's a couple of options I can see for the last 380 points. 

1. Two Spear Chukkas, Weirdnob + 20 point Endless Spell.
2. Warchanter+20 more Ardboys
3. Warchanter+Footboss 10 more Ardboys
4. Warchanter+Footboss+Weirdnob+The Burning Head
5. Warchanter+Weirdnob+5 more Brutes (A unit of 10 with 2" range)

This is based on the models I have available so, no 4 WC for me   If I take the 2nd WC I'll probably go Ulgu with the SoJ on either a WC or the Footboss.

Any thoughts on the options for finishing the list and on the realm artefacts. I think we have vaguely discussed them before but not really beyond "Aetherquartz Broach and SoJ are disgusting"

[Backbreaker]

8 hours ago, Malakree said:

From there there's a couple of options

I don't remember if we spoke of that here but you need to have a second option for Waaagh so either a Footboss or an Orruk Warboss if you are ready to give up one drop. Two drops is still very good and rerolling to wound is something we lack.

And then increase the size of your arboyz to have that green meat shield.

You said that you feel lacking a warchanter, a second one and you're good.

Forgetting about magic is a challenge, looking forward to read your report ! ;) 

[Malakree]

18 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:

I don't remember if we spoke of that here but you need to have a second option for Waaagh so either a Footboss or an Orruk Warboss if you are ready to give up one drop. Two drops is still very good and rerolling to wound is something we lack

Aye we did, because of how I play it's very rare for my MK to die first. I am leaning towards 3/4 with the footboss carrying SoJ.

If I had the warchanters is run 4 of them with a weirdnob and a 20point endless. Give one of them SoJ for that sweet 2+ deletion.

I think if I was to go for the 30 ardboys I might swap to shyish or aqshy for the ranged MW options.

[Superninja]

Malakree it looks to me like you need more beef.  The times I have tried bloodtoofs it has felt like I don't have enough bodies to go around.  It also feels like you have to get things perfect i.e. get everything in at the same time with a big Waagh to boot. 

   I would go with the options that give you more ardboys.  I am leaning toward the warchanter, footboss, and 10 ardboys.  

The other option I like is the warchanter +20 more ardboys.

The fifth option also looks good, warchanter, weirdnob, and 5 brutes.

[Superninja]

As far as artefacts:

The boss skewer could still be great with Bloodtoofs.  Further increases yours, while reducing theirs.  Daubing of mork is still fine. 

 

From Hysh:

Guardians Coronet could be good on a hero headed into melee.  Lasts until your next hero phase.

The Sash of Ten Paradises- +2 move on a footboss would allow him to keep up.

Ghyran:

 

Ghyrstrike:+1 to hit and wound rolls.  On Footboss could be fun, I want to try it.  Could also work on cabbage but you would switching out a defensive item.

Jadewound Thorn: Adds a Mortal wound on a hit roll of 6+ .  Not as good as SoJ, but it's still cool.

Verdant Mantle:  Dispel an endless spell as a wizard.  Not bad since we may only have one shaman or none.

Wand of Restoration:  Heal 1 wound to a friendly model within 6".  Healing a cabbage could be good and if he doesn't need it, those brutes or ardboys are even tougher.

Hypersnare Seeds:  Chance to stop a unit from charging.  This could be great.  Feels like Brutish Cunning and I think the 2 paired could be fun.  Stop one unit from charging and then charge with one of yours in their turn.  I'd like to try it. (I haven't tried Brutish Cunning yet, sigh.)

Ghur:

Amberglaive: Add 1" range and +1 to hit to one of your weapons.  I really want to try this!!  Put it on a footboss, and he can sit behind the ardboys or brutes and still hit something.  Put it on a cabbage using a Choppa/Rip tooth fist, now it has a 2" range on the choppa.  Put it on a cabbage using Boss Gore Hacka/Scrap-tooth, and you could have 3" range with the Gore-Hacka OR Both your weapons at 2" if you put it on the scrap tooth.  I like the idea of this because IF you can clear out things that are 3" away, then you are clearing the way for another charge.

Gryph-Feather Charm:  -1 to attacks targeting bearer and +1 move.  I like this one.  On a footboss or cabbage.

 

 

[broche]

4 hours ago, Malakree said:

Aye we did, because of how I play it's very rare for my MK to die first. I am leaning towards 3/4 with the footboss carrying SoJ.

I think Warboss is just plain better than Footboss. Better waaaagh, better move, and give a permanent half waaagh to your army each turn (so on 2 turn it's like having a permanent +1 attack)

 

[Superninja]

Footboss is killier though, can take artefacts, has a better save,  gives a roll for Rampaging Destroyers, and gives a chance at +2 attacks per command point. 

This is not me disagreeing with you. I just wanted to put the other side of the coin out there. 

I think I agree that the warboss is better.  But I would like to see how others feel.  

     I think one of the areas this is felt is the #of units that we normally need/want to take.   We typically want at least 6 units near each other so that we can get a full Waagh off with our Footboss/Cabbage.   This leads us in the direction of MSU (multiple small units), so that we may a good spread of hero units and battleline etc.   Compounding the issue is that we want as many Brute bosses as we can get, since its a good source of -2 rend and having two different weapons in each hand allows the extra attacks to be on both.   If all works out perfectly this can be devastating but can cause problems.  I have found that large units of durable models that are buffed are quite hard to take off the board sometimes. (DUH) (30 block of chaos warriors (many flavors) have been wrecking me...chaos shrine, buffs from spells, etc.)(Making me feel like a 30 block of ardboys is necessary)

     The Warboss doesn't care about the # of units...it just happens with no chance of fail, which are both HUGE.  (But no super +2 attacks per)  So then you are more free to take larger units, allowing you to activate more models at once and upping the chance that you can smash and bash.  Since he is on a boar, his movement is bananas and allows for him to be where ever he needs to be, which is hard for the footboss sometimes.  The Great war banner is probably the key.  The within 16" reroll 1's to wound is amazing and everyone can take advantage, not just the brutes like the footboss buff. 

     Who gets the artefacts then?  Typically this will leave them to our Warchanters or Weirdnob Shaman. (or the Cabbage, but if you are taking that, you may not be taking the footboss or the warboss.)  What I don't like is that most of the items seem to be less effective on them (not the cabbage) because they aren't as 'badass' as the footboss or cabbage.   Typically they are easier to kill since they have a worse save and less wound, but they do usually stay farther back from combat than footboss does.  

The better save, better attack, and the potential of our Footboss's Waagh to generate +2 attacks combined with the Aetherquartz brooch and/or Prophet of waagh are the main things that make me continue to think about it.  But since I am leaning toward larger units the warboss is looking more and more attractive.

The other main thing that gets in the way is wanting to ally in wizards and/or artillery.  These things usually take the spot of the warboss since we can take the footboss.  And the new 1 ally for every 4 units rule. I don't like that.

 

Edited September 10, 2018 by Superninja

[broche]

19 hours ago, Backbreaker said:

For 180 points, you gain :

One CP (50 points as you said)

One artefact

Reduction of deployement drops

Rule to mitigate our 4" move

Two wound one one model

Gordrakk can affect every unit from a battalion

Having a CP before your turn one can save you, remember you start with 0 and cannot use inspiring presence !

So that 130 pts for Artefact, extra move and lower drop. But you can also get that from Weirdfist or even Ardfist. 

Also 50 pts give you an extra CP and will most of the time net you the triumph as well. Triumph worth at least 20 pts, but it's probably more 30-40 as Ironjawz can make good use of any triumph roll.

Personnaly I play Gordrakk withouth any bataillion and it's working fine. On paper, it's cool to have your bataillion all charging at +2 attack. However in practice, I quickly realized it's not that relevant. You can just use your command when it suit you to charge/kill something specific and it will be enough to win the game. Last game I played with Big G he used it on himself anyway so he could use the big charge to jump above the screen.

That said, i think it's arguable that Lower drop and Artefact worth 130 pts (depending what's the artefact). I think i'm biased cause i don't care too much going first or second as i don't plan my strategy based on that. There's both advantage to going first and second so i usually don't care and just adapt my strategy accordingly. 

So in the end, it fall down to the real question: do I need the extra move. From the few game I played i concluded I don't need it. I just assume i'm slow and play a more defensive style, fielding more body to compensate.

[ajax_xaja]

Had my first two games with my Ironjawz yesterday (1500 points), and I'm really feeling at home with the playstyle.

That being said, one of the games I played was against Stormcast, and it felt like climbing a mountain the entire time. He had a guaranteed turn 1 charge against me after deepstriking, by using Sureheart's command ability twice (he bought 2 cp). dropped a 10 strong unit of evocators, and had a chance to do 10 mortal wounds to my MK boss top of 1, along with tying up a unit of goregruntas and brutes.

A 20 man unit of evocators pushed up the middle, and basically ate 3 units worth of brute charges, with a 2+ save and full rerolls. After that, they basically grinded them out, I'm not sure I even killed half of the unit.

Just....how do you deal with that kind of list?

Edited September 10, 2018 by ajax_xaja

[Rock Lobster]

25 minutes ago, ajax_xaja said:

Had my first two games with my Ironjawz yesterday (1500 points), and I'm really feeling at home with the playstyle.

That being said, one of the games I played was against Stormcast, and it felt like climbing a mountain the entire time. He had a guaranteed turn 1 charge against me after deepstriking, by using Sureheart's command ability twice (he bought 2 cp). dropped a 10 strong unit of evocators, and had a chance to do 10 mortal wounds to my MK boss top of 1, along with tying up a unit of goregruntas and brutes.

A 20 man unit of evocators pushed up the middle, and basically ate 3 units worth of brute charges, with a 2+ save and full rerolls. After that, they basically grinded them out, I'm not sure I even killed half of the unit.

Just....how do you deal with that kind of list?

Against Stormcast you need to think in more than one direction for protecting key characters, if needed hold a sacrificial character or smaller unit back behind the MBMK to reserve some deep strik denial space.

With the really souped up units, as annoying as it is, the best strategy is to ignore and hit unbuffed units and characters. If he makes a screen out of them (long and thin), tag a unit of gore gruntas on the end to hold them in place and go to work on the rest.

You must kill the buffing characters, and the list becomes a lot less solid. It is a very hard match though. I beat 1 and lost 1 to stormcast in the last tournament.