AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, broche said:

Solid list @Imperial, for me this is clearly a T1 list. Hard to screen with the 2 Krusha potentially doing 8 mortal before gruntas charge. I don't think a lot of army can handle that big spike of damage round 1. I would use Fungoid over Grot shaman maybe?  (so you can open with both Mystic shield and Cog and your odds are much better)

@ImperialI love the idea of Prophet of the Waaagh! and Aetherquartz broach together, it's such a level of filth.

 

Honestly Ironjawz is such a vicious Alphastrike army now. The two core lists I see us building are the Goredrakkfist and Bloodtoofs with cogs. Both of them can jump across the board suddenly and tear someone a new one.

I played several games at Bravery One British Open last weekend, i found I was very much jumping across the board suddenly and deleting key portions of their army. Even when I got jumped on by a vicious DoK army, which forced me to go first then double turned me, the remnants of my army still managed to dive through various gaps and kit key stuff. Had I been in a better frame of mind and some house rules not been in play I could have easily have minced them.

My most memorable game was probably against triple stardrake which involved me going first and deleting everything other the stardrakes and putting one down to 4 wounds.

 

I do wonder if there is a slightly more conservative list revolving around the fungoid and and double MK. 

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- General
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
- 20x Choppa or Smasha & Shields
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ardfist (170)

Endless Spells
Malevolent Maelstrom (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 138

Use the Ardboys/Ardfist to take up space and stall the game giving you chance to position for a turn of both cabbages getting potential double charges with the Fungoid Shamans CA.

Not to mention it would be an absolute nightmare to shift something like this. 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Malakree

[Backbreaker]

Do you think that Gordrakk Fist needs a Gorefist ? Or an Ironfist can do the trick ?

I prefer to have some brute as a second wave. And you keep the ironfist movement bonus later in the game on gruntas...

And even like that : 4"+d6"+3d6"+1" for a T1 charge with Brutes, not bad ! 19" ! And 24" with Gruntas on average !

Second question : Do you think that taking first turn with IJ is obligatory ? Especially with Gordrakk to prevent him getting one shot T1 ?!

[Malakree]

So if you swap the gorefist to an ironfist it becomes a standard ironjawz list instead of the alphastrike list.

Losing the 15" of movement makes your engage far less reliable. On some battleplans the enemy can deploy far enough back to deny you and you risk part of your army getting in.

Gordrakk works with an ironfist, but you are looking for a turn 2 fight most of the time not alphastrike.

Specifically the gordrakkfist tries to take priority turn 1 and hit the opponent before they can buff.

[broche]

3 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:

Do you think that Gordrakk Fist needs a Gorefist ? Or an Ironfist can do the trick ?

I prefer to have some brute as a second wave. And you keep the ironfist movement bonus later in the game on gruntas...

And even like that : 4"+d6"+3d6"+1" for a T1 charge with Brutes, not bad ! 19" ! And 24" with Gruntas on average !

Second question : Do you think that taking first turn with IJ is obligatory ? Especially with Gordrakk to prevent him getting one shot T1 ?!

I think Gordrakk is viable with ironfist, but you aim more at at round 2 attack (19'' and 24'' are too easy to negate by deploying in the back of the zone). My current version of Grodrakk ironfist look like this:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Gordrakk The Fist of Gork (580)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: The Golden Toof 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Wand of Restoration 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies
Orruk Warboss (140)
- Great Waaagh Banner
- Allies
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- 1x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
Ironfist (180)
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 220 / 400
Wounds: 117

As for taking first turn, it really depend on what you're facing, the battleplan, you're opponent deployment. Too much factor involved to say "always take turn 1".  

[Backbreaker]

8 minutes ago, broche said:

I think Gordrakk is viable with ironfist, but you aim more at at round 2 attack (19'' and 24'' are too easy to negate by deploying in the back of the zone). My current version of Grodrakk ironfist look like this:

Mmmm... so is it worth to take ironfist instead of gorefist only to have "access" to brutes and to a movement buff every turn ? 

I'm not sure now... alpha strike T1 seems our way to negate other armies shenanigans...

[broche]

Correct, but you get access to ardboys too. Ardboys are the best objective holder in the army (and brutes are better than gruntas). I would say Gorefist is strictly better in most situation. But if you own less than 12-15 pig, or you like brutes, or want to try something different, i think it's more than viable (and fun probably more fun than half your game your opponent concede turn 1).

Also Gorefist does have few weakness. A clever opponent can deploy to mitigate your turn 1 attack, or deepstrike and charge you, then you're stuck with a useless bataillion and a really low model count for the rest of the game. 

 

[Imperial]

4 hours ago, broche said:

Solid list @Imperial, for me this is clearly a T1 list. Hard to screen with the 2 Krusha potentially doing 8 mortal before gruntas charge. I don't think a lot of army can handle that big spike of damage round 1. I would use Fungoid over Grot shaman maybe?  (so you can open with both Mystic shield and Cog and your odds are much better)

Yes. Sorry. It's was Fungoid.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Imperial

[Imperial]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

@ImperialI love the idea of Prophet of the Waaagh! and Aetherquartz broach together, it's such a level of filth.

I still think about optimization for this list. I hope i can got version with 2-3 CP at start of game after 3-5 games. 

[Malakree]

35 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:

Mmmm... so is it worth to take ironfist instead of gorefist only to have "access" to brutes and to a movement buff every turn ? 

I'm not sure now... alpha strike T1 seems our way to negate other armies shenanigans...

It's definitely viable you just have to work out what kind of list you are building. So far I think we have 4ish viable builds which are distinct.

• Gordrakk + Gorefist - This lists works by taking priority turn 1 and trying to cripple your opponent out of the game before they can do anything. A classic Alphastrike.
• Classic Ironfist - Very versatile and reliable there are a huge number of varieties for this, a staple of Ironjawz.
• Bloodtoofs - A relatively new list made stronger with the release of Chromatic Cogs. Very restrictive from a list building perspective it's power is in just how quickly it can go. It straddles the divide between the first two.
• Weirdfist - Far more defensive than the other options we have. What used to be a gimick list has really come into it's own with AoS2 and Malign Sorcery due to the reduced cost of both the battalion and the Balewind plus all the increased defence against sniping the weirdnob now has.

[Backbreaker]

9 hours ago, Malakree said:

Classic Ironfist - Very versatile and reliable there are a huge number of varieties for this, a staple of Ironjawz.

Probably the one I will be going for... And adding Gordrakk to the list will be adding options.

Gorfist seems fun once or twice but after that... ^^

[broche]

Yeah Big G is expansive over a Regular Maw-Krusha (who can benefit from trait and/or artefact) but he does offer something with his command (ensure a +2 attack and +d6 charge for 1 CP with a huge range ).  He does however hit significantly harder (a Megaboss on MK need +2 attack to reach the samed damage level as G without any buff), and thus with fewer buff than regular MB et can take out key piece (like Nagash or a Cauldron of Blood let say). 

He's more fragile tough so (one of the reason i'm trying some source of healing to increase his survavibility)

[Backbreaker]

3 hours ago, broche said:

He does however hit significantly harder (a Megaboss on MK need +2 attack to reach the samed damage level as G without any buff), and thus with fewer buff than regular MB et can take out key piece (like Nagash or a Cauldron of Blood let say).

Yep, that's what I like. On average, with a charge and his command ability on himself, he kills Nagash.

But as you said, he is fragile... for that price, It's a shame he doesn't have something like reducing rend or a mortal wound save...

[broche]

Yup. Artefact usually protect/Heal the bearer sadly, wand of restoration is the only item I found that was interacting with another character. It's not a great item, but it's better than nothing

 

[Superninja]

@broche        Lens of Refraction and Spell Mirror both affect other units, as well as the wand.

[Durnaxe]

I see balewind vortex mentioned in this thread for Wierdfist armies after the FAQ change. Is it really still worth it since you cant increase the range of endless spells?

[broche]

You want to cast twice either Foot, Bolt or puke to get your bataillion bonus. you want to cast endless spell with extra wizard. in fact it's  lot better than before in weirdfist and for 40 pts only

[Lanoss]

I would like some of y’all thoughts on this Bloodtoofs list 

Ive had some issues with IJ wizards in this edition, especially with Cogs (not to mention Foot)

Cogs are good. But they are a high casting. The wizards we have access to aren’t the best casters. And by turn 2, likely to be in their face anyway so unless it gets off turn 1 it’s sort of wasted. 
Plus they’re pretty popular in the meta so chances a (dumb) opponent will cast it haha

So I’ve thought to drop my Fungoid Shaman and Cogs for either

- a third Warchanter +1 CP (starting with 3)

- a second Megaboss 

- 3 more Gruntas ( to make a healthy unit of 6)

 

MBMK - Trait: Ironclad - Artefact: Ignax’s Scales (Aqshy)

Megaboss - Artefact: Destroyer

Warchanter - Artefact: Boss Skewer

Warchanter 

2x5 Brutes (choppas)

1x5 Brutes (gore hackas)

2x3 Gore Gruntas

Ironfist

Bloodtoofs

 

Which option should I go do y’all think?

Id be interested to hear everyone’s opinions 

[broche]

i think Cog is a bit overated. With bloodtooth you already have +d6 and +2 to charge. Cog won't help you that much get in combat in round 1 at this point.
And you already have 300 pts invested in non-wound. I think Cog is better in a weirdfist for the extra cast and reroll save!

I wouldn't go for an extra Megaboss (you already have one, 2 seem redundant) use greenskin one instead, his waaagh is more reliable and reroll 1 add lots on damage 
in IJ.  think extra pigs or you could also replace 5 brutes for 10 ardboys, that would leave room for another 10 ardboys, buffing your wound total.

[Malakree]

4 minutes ago, broche said:

i think Cog is a bit overated. With bloodtooth you already have +d6 and +2 to charge. Cog won't help you that much get in combat in round 1 at this point.
And you already have 300 pts invested in non-wound. I think Cog is better in a weirdfist for the extra cast and reroll save!

So the +2 to move and charge really can be massive but it depends on both procs and battleplans. If you get any Ironjawz moves it makes a ton of difference just because it functions as +4" to move and +2" charge ontop of the normal +4 for the proc. For the battleplans that are 18" apart when you combine it with all the other buffs most of your army will get in combat. The problem is the same as why it can be so good, it relies on procs and battleplan.

Personally I love the Bloodtoofs, however that's because of the +2 bravery rather than the charge range which is more a nice perk. I'd say the cogs are "slightly" overrated but not that much, the thing is there are so many good options and it is just the most obvious one. To give some examples the spoilers below are some potential lists.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 103

1 drop double cabbage. It's almost a Gordrakkfist but doesn't use the Big G, being a 1 drop means you have 50/50 odds to get first turn against other 1 drop lists.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Endless Spells
Aethervoid Pendulum (40)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 118

A super solid core with two wizards and some great potential for MW output.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- Artefact: Miasmatic Blade 
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Spellmirror 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125

No wizards but has the ultracheese going on in it. Honestly the ability to delete characters with the Sword of Judgement is absolutely fantastic and even without it 4 warchanters is still solid for us.

All of these lists are still 1 drops, still bloodtoofs but have a slightly different spin depending on how you want to run them.

[broche]

I had an idea today about using bonesplitterz pig (the one that retreat and charge) in Ironjawz. 10 pig is only 200 pts, add 30 wounds to your army and huge board coverage

[Lanoss]

I hadn’t considered adding in 20 ArdBoyz, replacing 5 brutes and the shaman + cogs. Very interesting

I haven’t had much experience with ArdBoyz. How viable are they now? What is everyone’s experience with them?

[Malakree]

31 minutes ago, broche said:

I had an idea today about using bonesplitterz pig (the one that retreat and charge) in Ironjawz. 10 pig is only 200 pts, add 30 wounds to your army and huge board coverage

Aren't they on smaller ovals than GG's? Just checked and they are.

How about Gitmob Wolf Riders instead. You lose a wound per model but it drops to 90 points and they have a 4+ save while there are 5+ models, You get free wolf bows with them as well. Additionally the wolf riders move 12" instead of 9", get +2" to run and their banner is if there is no enemies in 3" rather than requiring it.

As a screen I would say it depends what really comes to the forefront as the strongest army type. If it's magic then you want the Savage Boarboyz, where as against shooting you would want the wolf riders. If they aren't running melee I'd rather have the wolves for the longer charge range to pin stuff in combat.

 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Lanoss said:

I hadn’t considered adding in 20 ArdBoyz, replacing 5 brutes and the shaman + cogs. Very interesting

I haven’t had much experience with ArdBoyz. How viable are they now? What is everyone’s experience with them?

With the Waaagh! stacking, a warchanter buff and the 2h they can pump a TON of damage just from the sheer number of models.

Assuming you only get 3 Waaagh! running on T1 that's 30 extra attacks on 3+/3+/-1/1 which is pretty solid and easily achievable. If you pull +9 attacks, gotta love that Aetherquartz broach, you are doing 110 attacks from a unit that costs you 160 points, it's a level of disgusting that's unreal.

[broche]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

How about Gitmob Wolf Riders instead. You lose a wound per model but it drops to 90 points and they have a 4+ save while there are 5+ models, You get free wolf bows with them as well. Additionally the wolf riders move 12" instead of 9", get +2" to run and their banner is if there is no enemies in 3" rather than requiring it.

 

Why not! I think i still actually have 10 wolves riders taking dust somewhere could put them to use!   

I was thinking of boar because i probably want to play Greenzkin warboss anyway (meaning they can benefit from generic waaagh and kill unprotected character). I was thinking that with let say 6-9 gruntas and 10 boarboyz, that might be enough mobility so you can ditch the ironfist. They are bad enough that you don't care too much if they die as chaff or decoy units, but strong enough that they can't be ignored, as they can kill most foot heroe and weak infantry siting on an objectives.

[Txplays]

Thinking about running a Bloodtoofs with 1 or 2 drops so most likely will be able to pick 1st turn.  My question is when should I go 1st and when should I go 2nd?