List building

[Dracothjay]

So what’s everyone strategy when list building? I usually go for a general with a command ability I like and build around that. Sometimes it fails me and other times I have flawless success.

will be interested to see how other people build their lists. what’s the strategy? Why these units etc.

[choocheelo]

I know my local meta and bring some problems to them last 3 games was a Nagashs first cohorts major victory vs. Tzeench, Nurgle and tzeench+nurgle 4kpts vs 4kptz.

[Kramer]

For games or for project? 

For games I look at the models available and usually end up with about 50% of my list with models I want to include because a fun strategy, because I just finished them or just plain love them visually/rules wise. 

I then try to find the things that support those units and the rough strategy in my head. 

My recent games were limited by my collection or the narrative nature. But after the gh17 offered allegiance rules for darkling covens it roughly went like this: okay just finished a black dragon and 10 executioners to finish a unit of 20. So that’s 660pnts gone. I love the supporting each other rules. So I want to exploit that. So 20 dreadspears backed by 10/20 dark shards for every flank. Realised I was a bit light on flankers and heroes. 

From that got a list and tweaked it for about 5 games until the Slaanesh rules grabbed my attention. 

Fact is I don’t like getting one gimmick and going all in on that. So in my casual environment that works fine. But as soon as someone goes all ‘tournament’ on me I lose by a huge margin or it’s incredibly tight. There is nothing in between anymore. 

[Drujeful]

59 minutes ago, choocheelo said:

last 3 games was a Nagashs first cohorts

I've been messing around with First Cohort, but haven't found something really solid to go with. What's your list look like?

[Sception]

start with a solid foundation (a couple big skeleton blocks, a couple casters, msu wolves as needed for remaining battle line slots, VLoZD as our only strong & affordable general, a heavy hitting hammer - usually morghasts or terrorgheist), then feel sad that there's no points left for vanity units.  Add variety from game to game by taking the same list with different legions, instead of by switching units much, apart from maybe swapping out the hammer - archai or harbingers for grand host, zombie dragon or terrorgheist for sacrament, harbingers or terrorgheist for night, a second VLoZD or blood knights for blood, but honestly i never run blood.

-Or-

Field Lords of Sacrament + Deathmarch for a fun casual game with a charismatic general and lots of goofy rules

-Or-

Field First Cohort for a 'can you beat this' cheese fest, for special occasions only - not because it's that overpowered but because the game gets super swingy and that stops being fun if overused, imo.

[Tobjen99]

How do Vargeist preform? I have one kit off them and plan to use them in a legion off night list. Might they get a buff i GHB18 or are they fine?

[Sception]

In terms of what to run in a first cohort list, just the basics (nagash, 40/10/10 skeletons, 2 archai, battalion) will eat most of your points.  There's lots of options for the leftovers.  necro and/or vampire support casters to lend nagash more spells.  corpse cart to make his spells even harder to resist.  6 spirit hosts for a second block unit - one more threatening to armor.  bigger archai unit to tank more hits and be a meaningful hammer.  Whatever you do honestly should work pretty well, that core basically does what it do on its own.

Recently, I've been tinkering with a tag-team / best bros / buddy cops list with both Arkhan and Nagash.  Same minimal core as above, plus Arkhan, which leaves enough leftover points for a single cairne wraith to carry a gravesand timeglass.  Characters & archai deploy screened by the 10 man skittle blocks, 40 man skittle block gets summoned from a grave site, and you just see how much magic damage nagash & arkhan can do.  The new command point rules will even let you use Arkhan's command ability on a crucial turn if it helps you catch an opponent with a 9" hand of dust.  Still playing around with what spells are best.  Overwhelming dread, spectral grasp, fading vigour, vile transference, soulpike, amaranthine orb, and soul harvest are all amazing here, but this list only gets to pick four.

~ EDIT ~

Vargheists are ok in and of themselves.  Fast, reasonably hard hitting, not too pricey, some rend.  They're an alright unit.  Unfortunately, nothing buffs them meaningfully.  In Legion of Night lists they're painfully overshadowed by morghast harbingers, with their extended charge range.  In Grand Host lists they're overshadowed by either morgahst variety in the same general role.  In legion of blood, well, they're not exactly worse than blood knights, since blood knights are so bad to start before the blood buffs kick in, but the ability to run halfway decent blood knights is like the main reason to play legion of blood in the first place.  In soulblight they're better than blood knights, but blood knights are their only legal battleline, so even if blood knights are still sub par for the points you've already bought them regardless and do not want to spend more points on yet more small fast hammer units.

That leaves generic death - and IMO the only reason to run generic death anymore is if you're playing tomb kings, in which case necroknights are way better in this role - and legion of sacrament.

vargheists are actually fine in legion of sacrament.  LoS doesn't have any extra bonuses for any of our hammer units, so you can play whichever appeals to you without missing out on anything.  Again, in and of themselves vargeists aren't any worse than any of our other hammer units.  The problem here is that they're not all that thematically appropriate for sacrament.  Morghasts or unridden monsters are a much better fit there narratively.

 

AGAIN vargheists aren't bad at all, if you want to run them go ahead.  They just suffer from being a bit outclassed or a bit redundant in all the allegiances that most want to run them narratively, and  the one legion where they're relatively strongest mechanically doesn't actually fit them particularly well in the fluff.

[Drujeful]

3 minutes ago, Sception said:

40/10/10 skeletons

I own 40 skeletons and 10 grave guard. Would it just be garbage to go with two units of 5 GG instead of two units of 10 skeletons? Or maybe even 40/10 skeletons, and 10 GG? 

5 minutes ago, Sception said:

catch an opponent with a 9" hand of dust

That sure sounds awesome! I could try to fit Arkhan in with Nagash, which seems like it could be pretty powerful.

[Sception]

The problem with arkhan/nagash is that arkhan is very squishy, and there's not a lot else in the army to target other than the nigh-invulnerable nagash, so in practice arkhan/nagash lists tend to turn into just-nagash lists pretty quickly.  doesn't make the combo terrible, just something to keep in mind.  Again, I only run the list on special occasions, if it were my all the time list I'd probably prefer something a bit sturdier, like 6 spirit hosts and a necromancer instead of arkhan and a wraith.  Or two necros and 20 more skeletons.  Or a necro and a vampire and 10 dire wolves.  Or a vampire and 2 more archai.

As for swapping 2x5 grave guard for the 2x10 skittles, that works fine.  10 skittles is a smidge better imo, since you get enough bodies that way to deploy a sort of melee screen to avoid first turn charges against your heroes while still deploying your big block underground (because otherwise the one big block will get swept off the table pretty quickly, hence why my regular advice is to go 2x40 for skeletons).  2x10 skittles is also a few more bodies when it comes to sitting on backfield objectives.  But either way they're sacrificial units that are swept off the table by anything that so much as glances on them, there to fill battleline & battalion requirements rather than as actual units in their own right.

[Drujeful]

Thanks so much for the tips. I'm still only just building my first army so I don't have the experience of game tactics and best practices yet. I appreciate the help.

[Sception]

note that core rules and points costs are changing next month, it may affect what units are considered good or points efficient in list construction.

[grungolah]

I'll be honest, list making for Death is still a complete nothing for me.

 

I have Nighthaunt battlelines, but the Mortis Engine that came in that box wasn't even ally.  Nagash is too many points to be an ally.    Nighthaunt ended in catastrophic failure.

Outside of Nighthaunt, I have one battleline (about 40 skeletons).   I selected the battleline that makes sense for my collection (mounted vampires, chariots and cavalry) :  Dire Wolves.  This particular model has not been in stock for months.  I need at least 30, preferably 50.

Nighthaunt is getting an upgrade.  If they let me bring Nagash and the Mortis Engine, I have a single army.  If not, I am stuck with Legion of Blood and the non existent Dire Wolves.

[Sception]

Our ally rules have absolutely been needlessly restrictive.

[Richelieu]

14 minutes ago, grungolah said:

I'll be honest, list making for Death is still a complete nothing for me.

 

I have Nighthaunt battlelines, but the Mortis Engine that came in that box wasn't even ally.  Nagash is too many points to be an ally.    Nighthaunt ended in catastrophic failure.

Outside of Nighthaunt, I have one battleline (about 40 skeletons).   I selected the battleline that makes sense for my collection (mounted vampires, chariots and cavalry) :  Dire Wolves.  This particular model has not been in stock for months.  I need at least 30, preferably 50.

Nighthaunt is getting an upgrade.  If they let me bring Nagash and the Mortis Engine, I have a single army.  If not, I am stuck with Legion of Blood and the non existent Dire Wolves.

My friend just uses Fenrisian wolves models.  They look way cooler than the dated dire wolves.  They're a GW product, and they can't reasonably be mistaken in your army for anything besides dire wolves.  If an opponent or TO had an issue with you using them they are a pedant and probably not someone I'd enjoy playing with.

[grungolah]

Given the volume of wolves I want, and that Fenrisian wolves are double the price... I'll wait.

[KoalaSnok]

1 hour ago, grungolah said:

I'll be honest, list making for Death is still a complete nothing for me.

 

I have Nighthaunt battlelines, but the Mortis Engine that came in that box wasn't even ally.  Nagash is too many points to be an ally.    Nighthaunt ended in catastrophic failure.

Outside of Nighthaunt, I have one battleline (about 40 skeletons).   I selected the battleline that makes sense for my collection (mounted vampires, chariots and cavalry) :  Dire Wolves.  This particular model has not been in stock for months.  I need at least 30, preferably 50.

Nighthaunt is getting an upgrade.  If they let me bring Nagash and the Mortis Engine, I have a single army.  If not, I am stuck with Legion of Blood and the non existent Dire Wolves.

People keep saying they are not in stock, and I do remember this was true some months ago, for about 2 weeks straight. But they were made available again, and still are right now ( I check the store daily) . I bought a box myself a few weeks ago. The little red arrow in the online shop just means they are "made to order". If they are unavailable they get a red banner saying "temporarily out of stock online", like the mortarch kit is right now. 

Perhaps it depends on your region? Im ordering from europe/uk. 

[grungolah]

Just now, KoalaSnok said:

People keep saying they are not in stock, and I do remember this was true some months ago, for about 2 weeks straight. But they were made available again, and still are right now ( I check the store daily) . I bought a box myself a few weeks ago. The little red arrow in the online shop just means they are "made to order". If they are unavailable they get a red banner saying "temporarily out of stock online", like the mortarch kit is right now. 

Perhaps it depends on your region? Im ordering from europe/uk. 

Ordering in the US, I get put on a mailing list.

[Kaedus]

This might be an appropriate place to ask this... 

Can someone nicely detail what hammer and anvil means. My guess is that anvil is a solid defensive unit and hammer is what that hits big on the attack. 

[Sception]

Basically yeah, a solid defensive unit to lock an enemy unit down, and an offensive unit to break them.  The terms admittedly meant more in oldhammer fantasy, when units couldn't safely leave melee and there were extra benefits to hitting simething in the flanks or rear.