Menkeroth Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 8 hours ago, RuneBrush said: And before anybody shoots me down (see what I did there ) I believe that a key part of the whole ethos of AoS is about the characters that make up the mortal realms. We don't care about Fred a rank and file liberator who's been reforged so many times they only know their name as it's written into the back of their armour - we want to know about the heroic effort of Lord Celestant Alginon and his cunning ruses to defeat the foes of Sigmar. So when playing a game, to have Lord Alginon shot by a load of Grots with shortbows because they could see him waving his sword around is frankly rubbish Seconding on that, which I've had and seen plenty in 40k back in the day of 5th edition when Abaddon could die in combat with grots or Avatar of Khaine could be beaten to death by the imperial guardsmen. This did not happen that often, but was quite weird anyway, although I know, balance, dice and such - after all, any giant can be beaten by a horde of lesser creatures... but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vextol Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 One issue that could come up is that GW has been working on fixing the shooting problem one battletome at a time, instead of a major overhaul. Every new battletome has some way to 'deal' with shooting. If shooting gets hit too hard, these battletomes may move from dealing with it to effectively negating it, and that's not great either. It may be really hard to change the fundamentals of shooting at this point just because shooting armies may have almost no ability to compete against newer armies due to their already good anti-shoot capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 32 minutes ago, Vextol said: One issue that could come up is that GW has been working on fixing the shooting problem one battletome at a time, instead of a major overhaul. Every new battletome has some way to 'deal' with shooting. If shooting gets hit too hard, these battletomes may move from dealing with it to effectively negating it, and that's not great either. It may be really hard to change the fundamentals of shooting at this point just because shooting armies may have almost no ability to compete against newer armies due to their already good anti-shoot capabilities. Not entirely sure that the more recent battletomes have been given new ways to deal with shooting. Both Nurgle and Death have ways of throwing out negatives to hit, but beyond that and weight of models that's about it that comes to mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rokapoke Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I'm curious, and rather uninformed (I have a limited set of opponents). Is shooting the actual issue, or is it the power of individual shooting units? Long ago now, the Thundertusk was considered out of control with its shooting attack. Then the Skyfires became the hated shooting unit. Is it possible that shooting in itself is perfectly fine, but some warscrolls are broken in the context of the shooting phase? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vextol Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, RuneBrush said: Not entirely sure that the more recent battletomes have been given new ways to deal with shooting. Both Nurgle and Death have ways of throwing out negatives to hit, but beyond that and weight of models that's about it that comes to mind Well, nurgle and death are the most recent...technically . Death especially has a good bit of anti shooting (like hit penalties in your own zone, artifacts and such) . I know they are notoriously resilient but still. Stormcast has a bunch of anti...well..damage. Shooting and otherwise. But mirror shield is very overused along with tempest. Kharadrons are that army everyone thinks over shoots, but I play them and I get wrecked by newer armies, especially shooting stormcast lists. Khorne doesn't really have that much anti shooting. But that's several tomes back now. I think there is evidence for some increase of "in the shooting phase" type protective abilities. This is kind of what lead me to think that instead of changing shooting, GW will just make changes to the factions to help deal with it instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKingInYellow Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Since my earlier comment about the big three things I dislike about AoS stirred up quite a few rebuttals, here is what I would propose to make AoS v2 a better game while maintaining it's simple and compact ruleset: If a Hero with less than 8 wounds is within 3" of a friendly Battleline unit, on a 3+ they can reallocate any wounds suffered to that Battleline unit. If you are shooting at an enemy unit that is within 1" of one or more of your friendly units, any hit rolls of '1' deal a mortal wound to your friendly unit. If your unit is shooting and there are enemy units within 1" all hit rolls for those shots take a -1 penalty. No more rolling for priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vextol Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, rokapoke said: I'm curious, and rather uninformed (I have a limited set of opponents). Is shooting the actual issue, or is it the power of individual shooting units? Long ago now, the Thundertusk was considered out of control with its shooting attack. Then the Skyfires became the hated shooting unit. Is it possible that shooting in itself is perfectly fine, but some warscrolls are broken in the context of the shooting phase? I don't think shooting is overpowered. I think melee is either underpowered, or the double turn amplifies shooting threat. If you go twice, you can effictively negate all of the first players movement. It's obvious that you need at least 2 turns to get to the shooters with melee guys (unless you're crazy fast or teleporty/lucky 9 roller) so if they go twice, they can back up to turn one positions again. Now, melee is back at square 1. You have the option of hoping for the double turn yourself (note that you've been shot twice) or the ranged guys will just keep you at a distance forever until you're dead. Edit: To slow. My problem with point 4 is the same, in melee the double turn is almost essential to get your slow guys into combat. Ranged guys can always get away. If you removed the double turn all together, I think you'd need to half ranged movement if they wanted to shoot or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Support characters are important in this game. By shooting you can remove them or at least influence the opponent's decisions a lot. Also it helps in melee if you whittle down the opponent first or destroy the lighter support. This is balanced mostly by the shooting units having a short range or they are very brittle. Some units break that balance and those are the ones that get discussed. Edit. I don't know if people still remember, but back in WHFB magic an shooting were so powerful that both were restricted in the various tournament comps, so its power is not completely in the AoS rules of character sniping and shooting in melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKingInYellow Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, Jamopower said: Support characters are important in this game. By shooting you can remove them or at least influence the opponent's decisions a lot. Also it helps in melee if you whittle down the opponent first or destroy the lighter support. This is balanced mostly by the shooting units having a short range or they are very brittle. Some units break that balance and those are the ones that get discussed. Ask any Chaos player how balanced Chameleon Skinks are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vextol Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, Jamopower said: Support characters are important in this game. By shooting you can remove them or at least influence the opponent's decisions a lot. Also it helps in melee if you whittle down the opponent first or destroy the lighter support. This is balanced mostly by the shooting units having a short range or they are very brittle. Some units break that balance and those are the ones that get discussed. That's true. Most of the complaints come from things with 24 inch ranges. Unfortunately, some of the 24 inch range guys can't hold up AT ALL in melee, so if shooting gets a knock, these guys really take a hit. 1 minute ago, TheKingInYellow said: Ask any Chaos player how balanced Chameleon Skinks are... They're so expensive and fragile though! 5 wounds for a million points no mortal saves. They're just cute little guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 And to follow up with the WHFB shooting restrictions, there is also flat out shooting cap in the Lord of the Rings, in which the shooting is mostly 4+ hits and 6+ kills stuff. In Saga, the shooting armies are considered to be the most powerful. In Infinity, almost every model has a sword and the game is full of cool close combat skills, but getting to hand to hand is most of the time foolish. I bet you can find this kind of examples in almost any game, with any sort of mechanics. I guess there are also reasons why actual real life combat has been very heavily influenced by shooting since the invention of bow and arrow... Edit: Also as a sidenote, not directly related to anything, is that no matter what, there will be "tier 1" armies in this kind of games. However if you compare AoS and 40k, at least the hardest armies still look like armies. The 40k tournament lists nowadays look often quite ridiculous (e.g. the assassin list someone posted today to somewhere on TGA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menkeroth Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 In WHFB it was even worse in terms of balance - not shooting but magic. When you could destroy a whole unit no matter of what size with one spell... or get blown away if the spell went awry. It was broken to some degree, but fun to play at the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamose Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 10 hours ago, Vextol said: Edit: silly as it sounds, that could actually be fun. You roll for priority as usual, but if you lose you can choose from a list and say "I claim priority and you can have +1 to hit until my next hero phase" and so on. Just SOMETHING to give you some control of the terrible situation. The other person can then take priority back but they have to suffer the penalty. I am actually loving this. I smell a play test coming! And this why we have these discussions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted February 16, 2018 Author Share Posted February 16, 2018 I don't know - don't like priority roll I think that's one rule that should go. Shooting isn't that fine but there is only problem with sniping out heroes and it's more complex becasue some armies would abuse any kind of targeting restrictions. I guess ability to allocate wounds on a friendly unit that's within 3'' (and for example opponent chooses which unit if there are multiple units nearby) for smaller leaders would be cool but only if it's 4+ or even 5+. 4+ means that player got to use twice as much firepower to kill such hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poryague Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 I like the idea "if the hero is partially obscure -1 hit shooting" is nice. They can still shoot a hero of the board but they need to invest more shooting to do it. Which may allow a hero to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, Poryague said: I like the idea "if the hero is partially obscure -1 hit shooting" is nice. They can still shoot a hero of the board but they need to invest more shooting to do it. Which may allow a hero to survive. This is even easier to implement then allocating wounds and makes shooting a little bit worse, which is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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