daedalus81 Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 I played a number of games recently using points to get a feel for how everything fits. One thing I noted was my battleline chaos warriors were just so very lackluster. So here are my perceived issues with them: 1) There is no point attempting to get the size bonus at 20 models: The cost of 30 models is pretty obscene if you want to fill out your battleline and a piddly reroll 1s on armor doesn't persuade me. 2) They don't do very much damage: At 18 points a model comes to 9 points per attack. The weapons are pretty standard and punch through very little. Marauders on the other hand are pretty great. They cost 6 points per attack, can easily get re-roll 1s to hit, a good chance of +1 to hit, and a 33% chance of +1 to wound. Bravery is one worse as is armor save (if they have shields). I can deploy 30 wounds of marauders for the same cost as 20 of chaos warriors. The only other exception is that chaos warriors can have a nice mortal wound save. Now given the new Sylvaneth can bring lots of mortal wounds is it a better bet to bring warriors to soak it up? I also really dislike the current marauder models so i'm crossing my fingers to get points and updated scrolls for tzaangors and acolytes. On the topic of warshrines - I like what it does, but it only does it to one unit and not all of the time. The bubble ward is ok, but I have a hard time taking it just for that. So what do you do for battleline? All in warriors? Maybe warriors and marauders? How are you supporting them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Warriors are a decent meatshield and good for holding up Paladins and other mortal wound spam. However, as you say, they lack any real punch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 What Mark are you giving them? If Khorne, you can use their characters to start giving them more attacks etc. On their own they are lacklustre, therefore you need to look at what you can add to boost them a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrexPushups Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 14 minutes ago, Bowlzee said: What Mark are you giving them? If Khorne, you can use their characters to start giving them more attacks etc. On their own they are lacklustre, therefore you need to look at what you can add to boost them a bit. Nurgle's glotkin can boost their attacks too if you make them Nurgle. I find the halberd option tempting as a 2 inch range means they can form a second line to make charging less tempting for your foe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 I'm a tzeentch kind of guy, which adds survivability, and I'm ok with that, but it the options are a little too unreliable. e.g. My shrine failed to bless 12 out of 15 turns. All things being average my dice just stink, which isn't the fault of the units themselves. I've turned to horrors to make the battleline a little more flexible, but they're nothing to write home about (especially with the rule of 1) and there are very few Tzeentch command abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akempist Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 This has been my experience too. I'm not sure if Chaos Warriors are suffering from a PR problem of being one of the bad boy elite infantry of 8th and so end up getting a bit overpriced or what. The bottom line for me is that they're pretty average for their price and unless they have some synergies working to boost them up, they're pretty questionable for the points. Which sucks since I have 60 of em. To be fair though, there are a lot of pretty solid combat boost type synergies available for chaos and it doesn't take much to turn a pack of these guys into a pretty durable lawn mower. By themselves though? meh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 They're slightly worse Liberators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 5, 2016 Author Share Posted July 5, 2016 2 hours ago, Akempist said: This has been my experience too. I'm not sure if Chaos Warriors are suffering from a PR problem of being one of the bad boy elite infantry of 8th and so end up getting a bit overpriced or what. Yea, I feel weird using my elite from 8th as a middling anvil unit. Pricing-wise I think they're decent. Like @Nico said - they are slightly worse Libs and they are 200 for 10, but the nicest thing for Libs is they can fulfill batteline with 3 units of 5... on top of access to a decent special weapon. I really want to take a pile of warriors with halberds, but that's only really possible with Slaves to Darkness allegiance so that I can do one big block plus a couple small units of knights. But then i'm stuck with the old static list of 8th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhsellwood Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 5 hours ago, Nico said: They're slightly worse Liberators. And slightly cheaper per model, so seems fair. @daedalus81 one thing I keep in mind is that Chaos has an extremely wide range of Battleline units. If you are looking for a fast and cheap option, Ungor are Battleline and are 60 for 10, are movement 6, can run and charge, so you could fill 2 of your 3 slots with fast harassing units for 120 points. Clanrats offer a similar bargain basement option, and are also fast. If you are open to other gods then 5 Blood Warriors are cheap. Also non-horror core daemons are decent. In general I see Chaos Warriors as needing to be marked to one of the gods to really get their motors running, and at the moment I feel that Tzeentch is the least well served. If you go Khorne you have access to most of the same buffs as the Bloodbound which can make them fast and choppy, Nurgle get the Rotbringers and lots of toughness as well as damage, and Slaanesh has an awesome command ability on their lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nubgan Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I think your paying for Mortal wound protection and just general survivability which is something 90% of Chaos battleline units are a little weak at. Like people suggest I think rolling them as Khorne with some Bloodbound buffs would probably make them a little punchier without sacraficing there awesome staying power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Tomlin Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 If we are just talking pure battleline tax, then taking bigger units of Marauders isn't a bad shout as the criteria for claiming objectives within the GH battleplans is often on number of models, not wounds or units etc. Obviously the flip side to this is that they will die faster, so you would have to use them in a different role in game as opposed to the mortal wound roadblocks discussed above. Not saying one is better than the other, but its another consideration. Chaos battleline units really upset me as I have no clue what to add to my army in this battlefield role!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UrFrndJenn Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 They are a great tar pit unit or objective holder which is what I plan to use them for but I wouldn't expect them to really kill much except low save models/low bravery units. I would say a large unit with a warshrine or sorcerer in support would take forever to dig out. Problem with large units of marauders in that role is their super low bravery and not being nearly as tough means you'll probably lose more to battle shock than actual wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrexPushups Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I am not feeling chaos warriors or marauders. I am currently planning on 2 units of 5 blood warriors 2 units of 10 blood warriors 1 unit of 30 blood reavers. The attack output that these can reach with various buffs is ridiculous. Sure mortal wounds are painful but if I am in melee I still get to hurt them before I remove the blood warriors. And that makes me feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 The Runeshields aren't amazing as any directional mortal wounds (spells, warpfire throwers etc.) will not be aimed at them (unlike say Har Ganeth Executioners). The ones on Knights are better as they are more of a priority target for your opponent (cf. Morghast Archai). Blood Warriors are stronger than Khorne Warriors because of the Goreglaive on the champion and the Gorefists. That said, I don't rate Blood Reavers compared to Khorne Marauders (5+ save versus no save is a no-brainer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrexPushups Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, Nico said: The Runeshields aren't amazing as any directional mortal wounds (spells, warpfire throwers etc.) will not be aimed at them (unlike say Har Ganeth Executioners). The ones on Knights are better as they are more of a priority target for your opponent (cf. Morghast Archai). Blood Warriors are stronger than Khorne Warriors because of the Goreglaive on the champion and the Gorefists. That said, I don't rate Blood Reavers compared to Khorne Marauders (5+ save versus no save is a no-brainer). 2 attacks(if near a totem) and access to a weapon with a rend value. Even better I stumbled into owning 40 of them so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 6, 2016 Author Share Posted July 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Nico said: The Runeshields aren't amazing as any directional mortal wounds (spells, warpfire throwers etc.) will not be aimed at them (unlike say Har Ganeth Executioners). The ones on Knights are better as they are more of a priority target for your opponent (cf. Morghast Archai). This is a good point. I do, however, worry about the bubble mortal wounds from sylvaneth cleaning out units. And since they will be the most popular army for a while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Quote bubble mortal wounds from sylvaneth Drycha Hamadreth or something else? I wonder whether Kroak's express wording, he can cast Celestial Deliverance 3 times, overrides the rule of one - it probably does.... Played a three way game against 30 Bloodreavers yesterday. With the benefit of a Bloodsecrator (battleshock immunity) and a 6+ ward from a Warshrine, these guy's held up my opponent's 5 Blood Knights for 2 turns. I was impressed. Khorne Marauders would have done even better. Without the battleshock immunity, 5 Blood Knights wiped out a unit of 27 Marauders last week. Humble Chaos Warriors hit pretty feebly, but a combo of the Warshrine, the Runeshields and another 6+ Ward meant a 20 model Bloodletter Bomb (11 mortal wounds) turned into only 2 casualties. I still suspect that Chaos (and Destruction) have the short end of the stick when it comes to battleline units. Order have Judicators - one of the most powerful units in the game and part of their most popular formation (Skyborne Slayers) - case closed; and Death have (thanks to the Tomb Kings) Skeleton Horsemen; Skeleton Chariots; and 3 tens of Zombros merging into a unit of 30; and Ghouls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Played against some Tzeentch Warriors last night, from the formation they were in they had a -1 rend, and some kind of 5+ ward save, plus they were next to a Warshrine giving them a 6+ save after that. They took a turn 1 charge from 20 Bloodletters to the face and only a few died.... In return they wiped out the Bloodletters over a 2 combat phases, albeit with some help from some Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 4 hours ago, Nico said: Drycha Hamadreth or something else? Drycha, branchwych spell, dwellers (best on bigger units), reaping, treesong, and beetle charge. I can see people taking the items that increase spell range pretty often, too. Quote Played against some Tzeentch Warriors last night, from the formation they were in they had a -1 rend, and some kind of 5+ ward save, plus they were next to a Warshrine giving them a 6+ save after that. That's the Fatesworn Warband. It's super fluffy, but not very dynamic. You have to take 9 units of mortal tzeentch at 9 models each (or a multiple of that), so from the start you have to lose a model, but the unit gets 6+ and -1 rend. If you wanted to do all chaos warriors for that it'd be 1620 points alone. Obviously marauders help and it'd be a lot more flexible with acolytes and tzaangors. With a shrine you get 4+ armor, 5+ vs mortal shield, 6+ shrine, 6+ battalion. Give your hero the talisman and he'll get another 5 or 6+ depending on who you're playing. So regular (no rend) wounds go from 50% to 35% and mortal wounds go from 66% to 46%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 Quote That's the Fatesworn Warband. It's super fluffy, but not very dynamic. You have to take 9 units of mortal tzeentch at 9 models each (or a multiple of that), so from the start you have to lose a model, but the unit gets 6+ and -1 rend. If you wanted to do all chaos warriors for that it'd be 1620 points alone. Obviously marauders help and it'd be a lot more flexible with acolytes and tzaangors. You can stick Tzeentch heroes into the 10 units and units of Tzeentch Chaos Spawn. However, it's poor for GH, as you lose all of the extra arcane bolts on the heroes, which is lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowlzee Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 1 hour ago, daedalus81 said: That's the Fatesworn Warband. It's super fluffy, but not very dynamic. You have to take 9 units of mortal tzeentch at 9 models each (or a multiple of that), so from the start you have to lose a model, but the unit gets 6+ and -1 rend. If you wanted to do all chaos warriors for that it'd be 1620 points alone. Obviously marauders help and it'd be a lot more flexible with acolytes and tzaangors. With a shrine you get 4+ armor, 5+ vs mortal shield, 6+ shrine, 6+ battalion. Give your hero the talisman and he'll get another 5 or 6+ depending on who you're playing. So regular (no rend) wounds go from 50% to 35% and mortal wounds go from 66% to 46%. It was very cool, and made them very survivable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, Nico said: You can stick Tzeentch heroes into the 10 units and units of Tzeentch Chaos Spawn. However, it's poor for GH, as you lose all of the extra arcane bolts on the heroes, which is lame. Spawn cannot get tzeentch keyword though you are right about heroes. I suppose I could still take other units and lose the 6+ ward, but still get rend. You might be onto something here...The bolts are a non-issue with the rule of one since only one hero will get the double bolt. The non-hero Tzeentch mortal units are: Warshrine Gorebeast/Chariots Knights Chosen Marauders/Warriors Forsaken So a list could be: 9 Warriors 9 Warriors 18 Marauders Warshrine 9 Knights Gorebeast 9 Chosen Extra Hero Extra Hero I think I can work with this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 I think i'll try this list out for a while. Since Fatesworn Band is from the Everchosen it looks like I can't claim 'Slaves to Darkness' allegiance - bummer. Also has anyone seen points for the Chaos Hero BSB? I can't find them and he's sorta crucial. Edit....let's try a new post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daedalus81 Posted July 7, 2016 Author Share Posted July 7, 2016 [240] Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore - Tzeentch; Hero; Behemoth - Provides Oracular Vision (very Tzeentchy) [140] Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount - Tzeentch; Hero - Very tough to kill and boosts knights and chariot [120] Fatesworn [140] Chaos Sorcerer Lord - Tzeentch; Hero - Also provides Oracular Vision [180] 9 Chaos Warriors -Tzeentch; Battleline [180] 9 Chaos Warriors -Tzeentch; Battleline [120] 18 Marauders -Tzeentch; Battleline [200] 5 Chaos Knights -Tzeentch [100] Gorebeast -Tzeentch [200] Warshrine -Tzeentch [320] 9 Chosen -Tzeentch Total - 1940 I could slap another 9 marauders in there or shrink the chosen for knights. Or get that BSB in when I find his points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 7, 2016 Share Posted July 7, 2016 6 hours ago, daedalus81 said: Spawn cannot get tzeentch keyword though you are right about heroes. Isn't that the spawns first abillity to get a mark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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